Usyk vs Joshua 2 August 20th

[Old Cat]

Shoot, I’m a fan of AJ, I hope Robert is good fit for him. I wonder if mentality is more of the issue. Robert and Deontay? Now that would be a paring. Whooo!

 

[heavyarms21]

Shoot, I’m a fan of AJ, I hope Robert is good fit for him. I wonder if mentality is more of the issue. Robert and Deontay? Now that would be a paring. Whooo!

The perfect one would have been Emmanuel Steward and Deontay. Side note this October marks 10 years since he passed away RIP.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Shoot, I’m a fan of AJ, I hope Robert is good fit for him. I wonder if mentality is more of the issue. Robert and Deontay? Now that would be a paring. Whooo!

Mentality is definitely the issue. AJ has to accept that he's going to get hit and probably even hurt again in the rematch. He reacts poorly to getting hit ever since he fought Klitschko (most will attribute this to the Ruiz upset but really it goes back to his war with Klitschko). He has to come in confident and keep his composure when he does get cracked. He'll have to trust in his chin and bite down when necessary. Can he do it? I don't know. Usyk's most effective punch in the first fight was clearly his straight left hand. If AJ can manage to neutralize that weapon of his he can slowly start to walk him down without too much concern of getting hurt. Just something worth pointing out here.

 

[FlowchartRog]

That's an oversimplification. The bigger man should do better early than the smaller man. The smaller man will look better as the fight goes later. That's how it was expected to play out. Roy said something similar on commentary that AJ made a huge mistake allowing Usyk to assert himself early. AJ took most of the mid rounds so had he gotten off to a better start we would've been looking at a draw or a narrow AJ win.

It really isn't an oversimplification at all. In boxing the significantly more skilled fighter wins 99% of the time.

Even when there is a big size difference, a gulf in skill/talent generally overcomes it, as evidenced by fights as far back as Roy Vs Ruiz, or even Toney doing way better than he should have logically done at HW.

And of course the whole latter part of Pacquiao and Floyd's careers.

It's more or less as simple as if the smaller far more skilled fighter doesn't get caught by the bigger man, he's going to win. And Usyk is indeed on another level skill/talent wise.

The only wildcard in this fight is Usyk's mental/emotional state, despite winning the first fight comfortably, I'm not convinced it was a good idea for him to take the rematch now. Didn't his wife say the stress and shock of the invasion caused him to lose about two stone?

Hopefully he's recovered and his head is screwed on right. If so, he'll win again, probably easier this time.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

It really isn't an oversimplification at all. In boxing the significantly more skilled fighter wins 99% of the time.

Even when there is a big size difference, a gulf in skill/talent generally overcomes it, as evidenced by fights as far back as Roy Vs Ruiz, or even Toney doing way better than he should have logically done at HW.

And of course the whole latter part of Pacquiao and Floyd's careers.

It's more or less as simple as if the smaller far more skilled fighter doesn't get caught by the bigger man, he's going to win. And Usyk is indeed on another level skill/talent wise.

The only wildcard in this fight is Usyk's mental/emotional state, despite winning the first fight comfortably, I'm not convinced it was a good idea for him to take the rematch now. Didn't his wife say the stress and shock of the invasion caused him to lose about two stone?

Hopefully he's recovered and his head is screwed on right. If so, he'll win again, probably easier this time.

AJ was the favorite going into the first fight. Usyk hadn't looked impressive at heavyweight in the two fights he had prior. While Usyk did outclass AJ it wasn't nearly as easy as some fans would like to pretend it was. I had it about 8-4 for Usyk. I agree that Usyk's state of mind will be pivotal in the rematch. He has to completely forget about the war and come in with tunnel vision focused solely on beating AJ again. Usyk did lose 22 pounds and that's a hell of a lot of weight. I favor Usyk to win the rematch but last time around AJ had the worst strategy you could possibly have. It stands to reason that bringing the right strategy to the table this time around should allow him to make it more competitive than last time. He quite literally fought the wrong fight and naturally that played into Usyk's hands.

 

[FlowchartRog]

AJ was the favorite going into the first fight. Usyk hadn't looked impressive at heavyweight in the two fights he had prior. While Usyk did outclass AJ it wasn't nearly as easy as some fans would like to pretend it was. I had it about 8-4 for Usyk. I agree that Usyk's state of mind will be pivotal in the rematch. He has to completely forget about the war and come in with tunnel vision focused solely on beating AJ again. Usyk did lose 22 pounds and that's a hell of a lot of weight. I favor Usyk to win the rematch but last time around AJ had the worst strategy you could possibly have. It stands to reason that bringing the right strategy to the table this time around should allow him to make it more competitive than last time. He quite literally fought the wrong fight and naturally that played into Usyk's hands.

Tbh all that proves is what I already knew - that AJ is hideously overrated. It's nothing new, he's simply the more well known and popular mainstream fighter, just like Hamed and Tito inexplicably being like 3 or 4 to 1 favourites over Barrera and Hopkins.

He is basic, and really nothing special. If they were the same size, he'd have no business even being in the same ring as Usyk. If Usyk was 6'6 and 250 pounds, he would have stopped him for sure.

I don't see how he fought the wrong fight, when he simply fought like he always does? This isn't some master tactition like Floyd we're talking about here, this is a guy with half decent fundamentals, size and power, and that's really it. He is slow, lumbering, has no infighting, not much defence, no traps, no setups, not much countering ability, and no ring IQ/adaptability. He is like a 6'6 boxing robot. I think you're giving him far, far too much credit talking about "strategy" etc.

Out of curiosity given you think AJ is good, why are you still picking Usyk given the very extreme stress and weightloss? Are you assuming he'll just recover from that and be in similar condition physically and mentally?

 

[WklySportsMemes]

Same. I'm edging towards Usyk just because of what's going on in his country. Exciting fight but I think Usyk has Joshua's number.

Where ya been??? You missed some good arguments.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Tbh all that proves is what I already knew - that AJ is hideously overrated. It's nothing new, he's simply the more well known and popular mainstream fighter, just like Hamed and Tito inexplicably being like 3 or 4 to 1 favourites over Barrera and Hopkins.

He is basic, and really nothing special. If they were the same size, he'd have no business even being in the same ring as Usyk. If Usyk was 6'6 and 250 pounds, he would have stopped him for sure.

I don't see how he fought the wrong fight, when he simply fought like he always does? This isn't some master tactition like Floyd we're talking about here, this is a guy with half decent fundamentals, size and power, and that's really it. He is slow, lumbering, has no infighting, not much defence, no traps, no setups, not much countering ability, and no ring IQ/adaptability. He is like a 6'6 boxing robot. I think you're giving him far, far too much credit talking about "strategy" etc.

Out of curiosity given you think AJ is good, why are you still picking Usyk given the very extreme stress and weightloss? Are you assuming he'll just recover from that and be in similar condition physically and mentally?

I think AJ is a touch overrated but he still has the deepest resume in the division. He's a specimen who has a potent combination of size and respectable skills. The reason he was the favorite over Usyk the first time around is because he's the much naturally bigger man combined with the fact that Usyk hadn't looked dominant since moving up. This time around though Usyk will be the favorite. If they were closer in size I have no doubt that Usyk would've stopped him but it doesn't work like that. If Usyk was AJ's size he would be a different fighter. No 6'6 240-250 version of Usyk is going to have this version's current workrate or mobility. Those things would take a major hit if he were to be scaled to AJ's size.

AJ fought the wrong fight because he gave Usyk exactly what he wanted, an opponent trying to outbox a superior boxer for 12 rounds. It allowed Usyk to remain comfortable throughout the entire fight and it fully played to his strengths. The conventional wisdom is to "box the fighter, fight the boxer" for the reasons I just listed. Floyd was great at this. He knew when to do both and he picked his spots well when choosing to stand his ground and fight.

He is slow, lumbering, has no infighting, not much defence, no traps, no setups, not much countering ability, and no ring IQ/adaptability.

Slow? Perhaps compared to Usyk he is but otherwise he isn't. No in-fighting? Not true. No traps or setups? No. Not much counterpunching? False. No ring iq or ability to adjust? Patently false. In fact, he literally did ALL of that stuff against Usyk with the exception of fighting him on the inside. He made some really nice adjustments mid-fight and that's literally what won him most of those middle rounds. He was setting clever traps and walked Usyk into several right hands that buckled him. Those were counterpunches btw.

I'm picking Usyk in the rematch because he's already demonstrated 1) That he can take AJ's power 2) That he can get AJ's respect (and actually hurt him) 3) That he can handily outbox him. Stylistically he's just a bad match-up for AJ.

 

[Mr2urbo]

Interesting pairing but Egis Klimas’ fighters train at Robert Garcia’s gym, not train with Garcia just work out there, there are such things as moles in boxing gyms, not that Usyk needs them but still.

 

[Dr. Stoppage]

That's an oversimplification. The bigger man should do better early than the smaller man. The smaller man will look better as the fight goes later. That's how it was expected to play out. Roy said something similar on commentary that AJ made a huge mistake allowing Usyk to assert himself early. AJ took most of the mid rounds so had he gotten off to a better start we would've been looking at a draw or a narrow AJ win.

Poor game plan I agree. Those are nothing new for AJ. The problem is when its not working Plan B doesn't seem to work either.

He wins by being the physically stronger athlete and imposing it on the other guy. Eventually he finds a KO. He would be better if he had a signature KO strategy like Wilder with his right hand.

 

[Dr. Stoppage]

Usyk boxed the breaks off of him , but I don't recall Joshua being in significant trouble where as Usyk has to be wary of Joshua's heavier blows , if Garcia gets Anthony to commit to the body that could something up later in the fight and slow down Usyk's boxing.

Usyk's face after that fight looked like he'd been in war. He is also the older fighter and doesn't look as crisp in there as he did in his Cruiserweight prime. A rematch always favors the younger fighter.

AJ could control Uysk with the jab, counter him to the body then throw some uppercuts inside later in the fight.

 

[CatchnShoot]

I think this is a horrible idea for Anthony, but I hope he can prove me to be stupid.

I’d rather see him against Fury or Deontay, Usyk is like fighting a Gnat.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Poor game plan I agree. Those are nothing new for AJ. The problem is when its not working Plan B doesn't seem to work either.

He wins by being the physically stronger athlete and imposing it on the other guy. Eventually he finds a KO. He would be better if he had a signature KO strategy like Wilder with his right hand.

What's even worse is AJ really had no Plan B against Usyk. He must've been confident that he could hang in the boxing department. He tried to outbox a superior boxer and it failed. Badly. He did manage to adjust mid-fight but Usyk made his own counter-adjustments in the late rounds and closed strong. AJ had a fair bit of success pressing more, going to the body, and sprinkling in counters in those middle rounds.

This time around AJ realizes he has to fight like the bigger man. He will have to try and use those physical advantages. Press him, rough him up a little, and don't let Usyk off the hook if he hurts him (which AJ did let him off the hook, and more than once, in the first fight). This time if he buzzes Usyk I expect him to intelligently follow-up but with caution (to avoid another Ruiz blunder). To Usyk's credit in those instances he did a good job preventing AJ from building on it. He knew he couldn't afford AJ gathering momentum and pressing his advantage. I look forward to the rematch.

 

[Dr. Stoppage]

What's even worse is AJ really had no Plan B against Usyk. He must've been confident that he could hang in the boxing department. He tried to outbox a superior boxer and it failed. Badly. He did manage to adjust mid-fight but Usyk made his own counter-adjustments in the late rounds and closed strong. AJ had a fair bit of success pressing more, going to the body, and sprinkling in counters in those middle rounds.

This time around AJ realizes he has to fight like the bigger man. He will have to try and use those physical advantages. Press him, rough him up a little, and don't let Usyk off the hook if he hurts him (which AJ did let him off the hook, and more than once, in the first fight). This time if he buzzes Usyk I expect him to intelligently follow-up but with caution (to avoid another Ruiz blunder). To Usyk's credit in those instances he did a good job preventing AJ from building on it. He knew he couldn't afford AJ gathering momentum and pressing his advantage. I look forward to the rematch.

I look forward to the rematch too.

AJ's expectations from fight #1 was that he could someday be a big HW attraction like Lennox Lewis and become HW champion. Those expecations sound high but they weren't Lomo, Uysk, Bivol type expectations of being lineal champions in their respective weight classes after dominant Olympic careers.

To that end AJ has kind of fulfilled his expectation and if he loses to Uysk and doesn't become 3 time HW champ he would still make for an exciting gate keeper for a long time. Take the place of Del Boy when he retires. AJ will be an attraction as long as he's in boxing.

 

[FlowchartRog]

I think AJ is a touch overrated but he still has the deepest resume in the division. He's a specimen who has a potent combination of size and respectable skills. The reason he was the favorite over Usyk the first time around is because he's the much naturally bigger man combined with the fact that Usyk hadn't looked dominant since moving up. This time around though Usyk will be the favorite. If they were closer in size I have no doubt that Usyk would've stopped him but it doesn't work like that. If Usyk was AJ's size he would be a different fighter. No 6'6 240-250 version of Usyk is going to have this version's current workrate or mobility. Those things would take a major hit if he were to be scaled to AJ's size.

AJ fought the wrong fight because he gave Usyk exactly what he wanted, an opponent trying to outbox a superior boxer for 12 rounds. It allowed Usyk to remain comfortable throughout the entire fight and it fully played to his strengths. The conventional wisdom is to "box the fighter, fight the boxer" for the reasons I just listed. Floyd was great at this. He knew when to do both and he picked his spots well when choosing to stand his ground and fight.

Slow? Perhaps compared to Usyk he is but otherwise he isn't. No in-fighting? Not true. No traps or setups? No. Not much counterpunching? False. No ring iq or ability to adjust? Patently false. In fact, he literally did ALL of that stuff against Usyk with the exception of fighting him on the inside. He made some really nice adjustments mid-fight and that's literally what won him most of those middle rounds. He was setting clever traps and walked Usyk into several right hands that buckled him. Those were counterpunches btw.

I'm picking Usyk in the rematch because he's already demonstrated 1) That he can take AJ's power 2) That he can get AJ's respect (and actually hurt him) 3) That he can handily outbox him. Stylistically he's just a bad match-up for AJ.

You're clutching at straws here, so much so that I'm not sure if you're serious or just joking around. You're citing the Usyk fight, a fight in which Joshua got beaten comfortably by a much smaller man as proof that he has good ring IQ and ability to adjust? lolol, you can't be serious, you have to be winding me up. He literally did none of the stuff you mentioned, he won a few of the middle rounds by letting his hands go more and being a bit braver. We're talking about a fight that prompted him to find a new trainer. And if he could fight on the inside, and had the ability to adjust, he wouldn't have been battered and stopped by Andy Ruiz.

"Tito showed great ring IQ and adaptability by winning 2 rounds against Hopkins" <Lmaoo>

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

You're clutching at straws here, so much so that I'm not sure if you're serious or just joking around. You're citing the Usyk fight, a fight in which Joshua got beaten comfortably by a much smaller man as proof that he has good ring IQ and ability to adjust? lolol, you can't be serious, you have to be winding me up. He literally did none of the stuff you mentioned, he won a few of the middle rounds by letting his hands go more and being a bit braver. We're talking about a fight that prompted him to find a new trainer. And if he could fight on the inside, and had the ability to adjust, he wouldn't have been battered and stopped by Andy Ruiz.

"Tito showed great ring IQ and adaptability by winning 2 rounds against Hopkins" <Lmaoo>

You're from the heavies. I'll bet. This part is my favorite:

"He literally did none of the stuff you mentioned, he won a few of the middle rounds by letting his hands go more and being a bit braver."

There's no point in wasting any more time on you. You won't even give AJ any credit. Apparently you think AJ winning like 4 rounds consecutively was just a fluke. Pure luck. No adjustment made. Just like how AJ didn't actually adjust for the Ruiz rematch. Right? That was a shut out. Thanks for making me laugh today. Really.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

The fight has been delayed a few weeks due to AJ's broadcast deal between Sky & DAZN.
Exclusive: Anthony Joshua v Oleksandr Usyk rematch delayed until mid-August

 

[ChicDony]

Hopefully AJ retires after losing another UD. He is done, biggest win was against a 40+ year old semi retired fighter.

 

[MMALOPEZ]

 

[aries]

Where ya been??? You missed some good arguments.

lol I got majorly side tracked with the war in Ukraine, spent too much time in the war room. And then had a load of work commitments all at once. I've got a few boxing matches and boxing forum posts to catch up on!