Using a Shell or Crab Type Defense in MMA / KB

[SummerStriker]

About the crab and blocking kicks:

There is a kind of block people like to do in some karate styles called a "wall block" as I know it.

It is basically, from a bladed stance, the rear arm does a strong inside block near face level and the forward hand does a low block, making a solid wall of arms on the left side of your body.

I never liked it because I don't like being kicked in the arms, but the crab puts you in a good position to do it.

I wish I could find a picture of it.

Edit: Redneck style

 

[Discipulus]

And, just for kicks, here's Saensak who, though his lead hand is almost always very high, does all kinds of other shit that's not supposed to work in Muay Thai. Probably because he was an excellent boxer as well as an excellent nakmuay.



Curiously history's best Thai fighters were often accomplished boxers as well. Hmm...

 

[SummerStriker]

Side note, I've found standing like this works really well in KB - BUT - only against people I'm better than. When I come up against an equal or better, I have to go to a traditional KB stance to avoid getting my ass kicked. I was trained with a conventional stance and just made up my crab techniques out of interest.

The fact that I do as well as I do with it makes me think it has potential if someone who knew what they were doing put together a system for it.

 

[Sinister]

that doesnt make any sense at all...

What part dont you get? Floyd's hands arent always "down." The basic modern crab position, its not down, its tucked. There is a difference. He does have positions where its down, but if he (or anyone) does that too often, they effectively completely disarm their left arm. If youve ever watched Floyd, or any of these guys, you should see that this doesnt happen. This is because the optimal position is the hand tucked near the pectoral muscle. That's hardly "down." But its not high, either.

 

[Jukai]

I don't think keeping your lead hand low and to the inside of your body (shoulder roll position) is a great idea vs. TD's. A high crotch or head outside single will be hard to defend from there. To get underhooks, you'd have to drag your own arm across your body. Maybe not too bad if you're standing square, but the original supposition is that you're bladed, right?

Also, hi. Longtime lurker, first time poster.

I agree with this post. Blocking the strikes isn't the problem, with the hand turned to the other side of your body, even a double is going to be hard to properly sprawl.

 

[sourdiesel209]

What part dont you get? Floyd's hands arent always "down." The basic modern crab position, its not down, its tucked. There is a difference. He does have positions where its down, but if he (or anyone) does that too often, they effectively completely disarm their left arm. If youve ever watched Floyd, or any of these guys, you should see that this doesnt happen. This is because the optimal position is the hand tucked near the pectoral muscle. That's hardly "down." But its not high, either.

the part where his hands were up... And down at the same time... I agree with your post tho, I guess Nukie didnt explain it correctly...

 

[Sinister]

His English sucks, and you know this. Yours kinda does, too.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Hey i take offense to that one

 

[SummerStriker]

I know this is going to sound picky, but in my experience this sort of thing happens an awful lot.

Hypothetically, while in this stance someone throws a lead leg snap kick at the body. If "Floyd" doesn't move his hand, he's going to eat a shin right into his probably lose knuckles. That isn't a big deal for him with that glove on, but if he was in a small or no glove situation, it would be terrible.

 

[Sinister]

Its incredible to me how photos get used out of context. If someone threw a kick at me, why oh why would I do nothing to change positions?

 

[SummerStriker]

Its incredible to me how photos get used out of context. If someone threw a kick at me, why oh why would I do nothing to change positions?

Snap kicks are hard to read. My experience is that people don't always move. That's just what it is to me.

 

[Jukai]

Its incredible to me how photos get used out of context. If someone threw a kick at me, why oh why would I do nothing to change positions?

It is the attacks you don't see that hurt the most. In this specific stance, if you don't react to a kick, you could get very hurt just from the placement of your hands.

 

[thugpoet]

Then at that point it wouldn't matter what stance you where in ur gonna get hit regardless...

we are focused on the wrong scenario. In a fight I am not gonna sit there playing defense and slow someone to tee off on me.

I want to put myself in a position to use my strength to win the fight. That means for me its in boxing range, with my chin tucked behind my shoulder using my weapons to keep him doing what i want him too.

Stance outside of the basics isn't that important its what you do out of said stance that makes one effective

 

[Jukai]

Then at that point it wouldn't matter what stance you where in ur gonna get hit regardless...

we are focused on the wrong scenario. In a fight I am not gonna sit there playing defense and slow someone to tee off on me.

I want to put myself in a position to use my strength to win the fight. That means for me its in boxing range, with my chin tucked behind my shoulder using my weapons to keep him doing what i want him too.

Stance outside of the basics isn't that important its what you do out of said stance that makes one effective

We are talking about the pros and cons of this certain stance. Unless you are the perfect fighter who can close any distance, you are bound to eventually end up in someone's kicking range. If you are focused on closing distance, you may not be focused on the kick coming at you. If you don't react, the arm placement is set in a way that can cause injury if absorbed worse than a traditional stance.

That does not mean it is a deal breaker, but it is a flaw in the stance, one of the reasons why you don't see it used.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I don't know. If we just use the worst case scenario to illustrated our points about how one stance is inferior, could i just say that the normal hands up to the temple, squared stance is inferior because it exposed the belly too much that a front kick may hit the liver/solar plexus and KO you? We can just go on and on about it.

 

[Phlog]

If nothing else, its an easy way to bait fellow kickboxers into throwing a rear leg head kick. I've been working on timing the lead leg sweep counter.

The only glaring downside is when they disguise the kick behind some hands but then leaning right and rolling the shoulder works. It's gotta be an active defense but then when does it make sense to not actively defend?

 

[Babba]

it's not like people who would be comfortable enough to have a "stance/guard" based on movement in upper and lower body rather than absorbing punishment wouldn't move their arms and shoulder's constantly.

you don't walk in a straight line forward with your hands sagging along your waist like igor working the lab, and without the thought of either pulling back, stepping back, or putting the hands up if you get tagged or tee'd off on.

who's to say you cannot put yourself in " crab " when attacking and if you get countered and you've obviously felt the guy out, and he throws hard / combinations, either put up a high guard and push him away, or clinch?

your hand position is relative to the situation, sometimes you can put urself on the front foot and put ur hand down, and when he punches rotate it into a front hand hook, sometimes u can have a high guard to avoid a kick or whatever. its how smart you are about your two legs and arms that matters. it's not a static thing..

 

[JeetKunDoGuy]

it's not like people who would be comfortable enough to have a "stance/guard" based on movement in upper and lower body rather than absorbing punishment wouldn't move their arms and shoulder's constantly.

you don't walk in a straight line forward with your hands sagging along your waist like igor working the lab, and without the thought of either pulling back, stepping back, or putting the hands up if you get tagged or tee'd off on.

who's to say you cannot put yourself in " crab " when attacking and if you get countered and you've obviously felt the guy out, and he throws hard / combinations, either put up a high guard and push him away, or clinch?

your hand position is relative to the situation, sometimes you can put urself on the front foot and put ur hand down, and when he punches rotate it into a front hand hook, sometimes u can have a high guard to avoid a kick or whatever. its how smart you are about your two legs and arms that matters. it's not a static thing..

Exactly.

 

[jensen34]

I don't know. If we just use the worst case scenario to illustrated our points about how one stance is inferior, could i just say that the normal hands up to the temple, squared stance is inferior because it exposed the belly too much that a front kick may hit the liver/solar plexus and KO you? We can just go on and on about it.

You can and that's the point of the thread as I understand it. It's kind of like risk management so you have to account for the worst case scenarios, statistical chance of occurence, recovery etc.

Example: You say squared high guard is inferior because you are more likely to take a damaging blow to your mid section. Someone else says shell is inferior because you can take damage to the lead hand and are suspect to takedowns.

So what we have to figure out things like, how likely is it to get caught on the top of the head or kicked in that lead hand? Can you recover from those shots better then recovering from a blow to the mid section? Can you condition your hand to take that kick better then your midsection? What kind of attributes do I need to lower connect rates and make the stance work? against a TKD guy? against a wrestler? Should I eat carbs for lunch today? etc etc.

Personally, I wouldn't go too bladed (feet) in mma, but I don't see a problem with holding hands in a shell or crab position, especially if you are good with controlling range and spotting incoming kicks.

 

[thugpoet]

We are talking about the pros and cons of this certain stance. Unless you are the perfect fighter who can close any distance, you are bound to eventually end up in someone's kicking range. If you are focused on closing distance, you may not be focused on the kick coming at you. If you don't react, the arm placement is set in a way that can cause injury if absorbed worse than a traditional stance.

That does not mean it is a deal breaker, but it is a flaw in the stance, one of the reasons why you don't see it used.

people get head kicked without the shell stance all the time. shit happens sometimes you can't defend it.

So why would I throw away a stance just because someone could be head kicked? last time I checked no one in mainstream mma uses the shell stance and those guys get their head kicked off all the time...

the stance you stand in isn't as important as what you do in the stance