Using a Shell or Crab Type Defense in MMA / KB

SummerStriker

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I like the idea of fighting with a bladed stance with one arm low in Muay Thai or MMA. People usually think it is show boating but I think that for someone who has a good grasp on fighting or sparring, it can work out.

I like having one hand low so that it is in the way of wrestling style take downs.

I like how it facilitates a faster snap back from head kicks.

I think that having it low alleviates some of the tell a strong lead leg kick has.

Here is an image of the boxing structure I'm talking about. Forgive my lack of education when it comes to how to talk about this subject. I hope this is sufficent.

98675898.jpg


Major Problems and Solutions​

Takedowns

I think the position is fine for take down defense. Having one arm low so that you can get to an underhook or crossface faster couldn't be a bad thing. Even if you stand more bladed or more on the line, I think the low are will help defend it.

Head Kicks

Assuming you are skilled enough in KB to understand and see when head kicks are coming, I don't think you need a hand up as a guard on both sides of your face. Most of the time a squarely landed kick will fuck you up anyway. With the lead hand down, you could just do this:



Inside Leg Kicks / Cut Kicks to the Lead Leg

So what's the solution here?
 
For the leg kick, just check, really. Being bladed =/= unable to check.
I think you should watch John Makdessi. I recalled him using his shoulder to catch incoming punches in some of his recent fights. Might be wrong though.
With headkick, i think you can use your shoulder to catch a rear headkick, with a bit of elevation change to tuck your head in even further to deflect the kick and lessen its damage or fade away. As for lead headkick, just use both hands to block it or fade as well.
 
It's doable, but you really need the right stance to facilitate that type of guard, and you need to know when to give up the low hand position. Squared hips and a front foot weight bias will really open you up to kicks if you try to hold a crab or cross-armed guard.

There are lots of guys in Muay Thai and kickboxing who fight with a lowered lead hand, though, so there's no reason a crab guard wouldn't work.
 
For the leg kick, just check, really. Being bladed =/= unable to check.
I think you should watch John Makdessi. I recalled him using his shoulder to catch incoming punches in some of his recent fights. Might be wrong though.
With headkick, i think you can use your shoulder to catch a rear headkick, with a bit of elevation change to tuck your head in even further to deflect the kick and lessen its damage or fade away. As for lead headkick, just use both hands to block it or fade as well.



just check the low kick? its really that easy?

a high kick can still knock you out just grazing the top of your head after bouncing off your shoulder. look to Cerrone vs Guillard for this...didnt bounce off the shoulder but grazed the top of his head:

ibkE4PUfO6L3Mg.gif
 
just check the low kick? its really that easy?

a high kick can still knock you out just grazing the top of your head after bouncing off your shoulder. look to Cerrone vs Guillard for this...didnt bounce off the shoulder but grazed the top of his head:

ibkE4PUfO6L3Mg.gif

Yes. Checking isn't really rocket science, you know.
As for the high kick, that's why i said you need to drop your elevation too to move your head into a safer position, tucked in and move away from the highkick's trajectory. In the GIF Guilard's head was moving INTO the kick, which is why it made it worst even though it only grazed his head.
 
FWIW, if you are gonna get knocked out from a kick glancing off the top of your head and folding your neck like that, there's not a whole lot you can do about it.

We shouldn't behave as if there's some magical 100% effective safe technique against anyone's kick if they have any skill. All we can do is say what tends to work. So please, let's stop going "for real?" with each other, unless someone is absolutely saying something ridiculous.
 
Eh, it wasn't that bad of a slip. Cerrone just got him to bite on a feint, and he throws very Kyokushin-like left head kicks, from a range where you don't expect head kicks to be a threat.

That still doesn't prove any point though, Paradigm. The same shit happens in boxing. People are very fond of pointing out the dangers of head movement in MMA and/or kickboxing, but usually neglect to point out that most of the same dangers exist already in boxing. Rolling can get you kneed in the face, but it can get you hit with an uppercut, too. You can slip into a head kick, but you can also slip into a hook or uppercut.

Hell, the preferred method of avoiding head kicks, by pulling away from them, can actually be quite dangerous in boxing.

There are more set ups available in kickboxing, perhaps, to trick someone into moving their head into a kick or knee. But a savvy fighter can still use boxing's defensive techniques in a kicking ruleset. Hell, it's better than standing there and just trying to catch everything on your gloves.
 
giving me wet dreams as a southy, eat this match up all day ere day. Legs are going to be eaten up and you will be swept often.
 
FWIW, if you are gonna get knocked out from a kick glancing off the top of your head and folding your neck like that, there's not a whole lot you can do about it.

We shouldn't behave as if there's some magical 100% effective safe technique against anyone's kick if they have any skill. All we can do is say what tends to work. So please, let's stop going "for real?" with each other, unless someone is absolutely saying something ridiculous.

This. It's silly to counter every endorsement of a technique with a .gif of that technique failing. Everything has a counter available to it. Shit, there are fighters who specialize in countering the jab. No one here is against jabbing, are they?
 
Yes. Checking isn't really rocket science, you know.
As for the high kick, that's why i said you need to drop your elevation too to move your head into a safer position, tucked in and move away from the highkick's trajectory. In the GIF Guilard's head was moving INTO the kick, which is why it made it worst even though it only grazed his head.

checking isnt rocket science...checking for someone with a bladed stance isnt as easy as someone in a "regular" MT stance.

or am i wrong here?

Eh, it wasn't that bad of a slip. Cerrone just got him to bite on a feint, and he throws very Kyokushin-like left head kicks, from a range where you don't expect head kicks to be a threat.

That still doesn't prove any point though, Paradigm. The same shit happens in boxing. People are very fond of pointing out the dangers of head movement in MMA and/or kickboxing, but usually neglect to point out that most of the same dangers exist already in boxing. Rolling can get you kneed in the face, but it can get you hit with an uppercut, too. You can slip into a head kick, but you can also slip into a hook or uppercut.

Hell, the preferred method of avoiding head kicks, by pulling away from them, can actually be quite dangerous in boxing.

There are more set ups available in kickboxing, perhaps, to trick someone into moving their head into a kick or knee. But a savvy fighter can still use boxing's defensive techniques in a kicking ruleset. Hell, it's better than standing there and just trying to catch everything on your gloves.

my post had nothing to do with slipping/head movement in KB or MMA. it was a response to Nuclearlandmine about using the shoulder to catch headkicks. sure, it could work but even a grazing head kick can stun you (espcially one hitting near the temple).

This. It's silly to counter every endorsement of a technique with a .gif of that technique failing. Everything has a counter available to it. Shit, there are fighters who specialize in countering the jab. No one here is against jabbing, are they?

not every technique is a high percentage technique. there are more reliable ways to block something dangerous like a head kick than taking it on the shoulder.

i still think its safer to wing block than to try to use your shoulder to catch headkicks but to each his own...

its like trying to knee an incoming roundhouse instead of checking it. sure, it can work but if someone is trying that instead of checking, they should know the consequences of missing that knee.
 
checking isnt rocket science...checking for someone with a bladed stance isnt as easy as someone in a "regular" MT stance.

or am i wrong here?

my post had nothing to do with slipping/head movement in KB or MMA. it was a response to Nuclearlandmine about using the shoulder to catch headkicks. sure, it could work but even a grazing head kick can stun you (espcially one hitting near the temple).

not every technique is a high percentage technique. there are more reliable ways to block something dangerous like a head kick than taking it on the shoulder.

i still think its safer to wing block than to try to use your shoulder to catch headkicks but to each his own...

its like trying to knee an incoming roundhouse instead of checking it. sure, it can work but if someone is trying that instead of checking, they should know the consequences of missing that knee.

Look at Petrosyan. His stance is comparatively bladed to most, but he doesn't have any problem checking it does he? Even i somehow managed to hurt a karate guy with my check. It is an overblown issue.

While there might be more reliable ways to do things, in this thread we are specifically talk about another, experimental , yet-to-tested way to do things though. It is rather moot to try to use tried-n-true method to someone discredit this. MMA is still a growing sport, and there are still many undiscovered facets that might or might not be useful. But the sport won't grow if people keep regurgitating about how "this" and "that" works better than "this" simply because no one had the balls to try it yet.

A few years ago Rich Franklin (i think) in TUF suggested someone to drop down on a knee to not get headkick or knee, and people look at him like crazy. A few years later, we have Jon Jones with his spider-crawl. :icon_conf
 
Look at Petrosyan. His stance is comparatively bladed to most, but he doesn't have any problem checking it does he? Even i somehow managed to hurt a karate guy with my check. It is an overblown issue.

While there might be more reliable ways to do things, in this thread we are specifically talk about another, experimental , yet-to-tested way to do things though. It is rather moot to try to use tried-n-true method to someone discredit this. MMA is still a growing sport, and there are still many undiscovered facets that might or might not be useful. But the sport won't grow if people keep regurgitating about how "this" and "that" works better than "this" simply because no one had the balls to try it yet.

A few years ago Rich Franklin (i think) in TUF suggested someone to drop down on a knee to not get headkick or knee, and people look at him like crazy. A few years later, we have Jon Jones with his spider-crawl. :icon_conf

im no expert on Petrosyan so im not going to comment on that part of the post.

well, that's (Rich's suggestion) pretty much gaming the rules there. hence why Big John wasnt going to do much if Vitor actually kicked Jones in the head when he was doing that crawl in the opening seconds of their fight.

pretty much almost the same thing as putting the fingertips down on the mat to avoid knees to the face.
 
im no expert on Petrosyan so im not going to comment on that part of the post.

well, that's (Rich's suggestion) pretty much gaming the rules there. hence why Big John wasnt going to do much if Vitor actually kicked Jones in the head when he was doing that crawl in the opening seconds of their fight.

pretty much almost the same thing as putting the fingertips down on the mat to avoid knees to the face.

Gaming the rules? True. But that still within the rules to do so nonetheless. Until the rules are change, it will still a part of modern MMA.
 
A guy at my gym uses this a lot. He is very good at two things: Distance and footwork. It's a bad idea to stand in kicking range with your lead hand low like that if you're faced against a hard and fast kicker.

What my buddy (a professional fighter) does is he stays a little bit out of kicking range, with his lead hand down like that almost like a bait. He utilizes footwork and tricky feints to close the gap and throw combos. When he is closer in kicking or punching range, he keeps both hands up a'la MT style. That is, palms facing out with arms slightly extended. It's a good style I think and works quite well if you have the reflexes, timing and footwork.

I like to do this too but not exclusively. I think it's great for baiting the right hand, using the shoulder roll off a *punch* into a counter like a left hook or a straight right. Shoulder rolling a head kick might get a little hairy.
 
Gaming the rules? True. But that still within the rules to do so nonetheless. Until the rules are change, it will still a part of modern MMA.

this is technically gaming the rules also but still pretty cheap. interesting that i still remember his name (Chris Sheridan) after watching the video months ago. even more interesting that i forgot that Kim Winslow was the ref.



sure, its the other guy's (Memo) bad that he didnt protect himself at all times but i doubt youre gonna get a call to the big leagues doing that kind of shit.
 
A guy at my gym uses this a lot. He is very good at two things: Distance and footwork. It's a bad idea to stand in kicking range with your lead hand low like that if you're faced against a hard and fast kicker.

What my buddy (a professional fighter) does is he stays a little bit out of kicking range, with his lead hand down like that almost like a bait. He utilizes footwork and tricky feints to close the gap and throw combos. When he is closer in kicking or punching range, he keeps both hands up a'la MT style. That is, palms facing out with arms slightly extended. It's a good style I think and works quite well if you have the reflexes, timing and footwork.

I like to do this too but not exclusively. I think it's great for baiting the right hand, using the shoulder roll off a *punch* into a counter like a left hook or a straight right. Shoulder rolling a head kick might get a little hairy.

I just think standing in kicking range against a hard fast kicker in general is a bad idea. It doesn't seem a notion limited to anyone with a particular approach.
 
I don't think keeping your lead hand low and to the inside of your body (shoulder roll position) is a great idea vs. TD's. A high crotch or head outside single will be hard to defend from there. To get underhooks, you'd have to drag your own arm across your body. Maybe not too bad if you're standing square, but the original supposition is that you're bladed, right?

Also, hi. Longtime lurker, first time poster.
 
checking isnt rocket science...checking for someone with a bladed stance isnt as easy as someone in a "regular" MT stance.

or am i wrong here?



my post had nothing to do with slipping/head movement in KB or MMA. it was a response to Nuclearlandmine about using the shoulder to catch headkicks. sure, it could work but even a grazing head kick can stun you (espcially one hitting near the temple).



not every technique is a high percentage technique. there are more reliable ways to block something dangerous like a head kick than taking it on the shoulder.

i still think its safer to wing block than to try to use your shoulder to catch headkicks but to each his own...

its like trying to knee an incoming roundhouse instead of checking it. sure, it can work but if someone is trying that instead of checking, they should know the consequences of missing that knee.

I agree, for the most part. A wing block is preferable, and I'm not sure how viable the shoulder roll would be to block a kick. But Guillard wasn't shoulder rolling in that .gif, he was slipping what he thought was a jab. You can't shoulder roll a left high kick, but you can't really shoulder roll a left hook either, or at least I don't know how, and I've never seen it done.
 
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