Using a Shell or Crab Type Defense in MMA / KB

[Discipulus]

I just think standing in kicking range against a hard fast kicker in general is a bad idea. It doesn't seem a notion limited to anyone with a particular approach.

The more I practice and research, the more I realize that range, or distance, is the most important aspect of fighting. You control the range, you can control the entire fight.

I'm thinking back to Arni's (Isaksson) fight with Wayne Murrie. Arni pretty definitively loses the first round because he can't find his distance, and he's in the power arc of Wayne's kicks constantly. Any punch he lands from that range is soft, and kick Murrie lands is very hard.

But then the second round comes around, and Arni finds his range. Suddenly he's smothering every one of Wayne's kicks, or else moving in immediately after eating one. And once he kept the fight at the distance at which he was strongest, it was all downhill for Mr. Murrie.

 

[JeetKunDoGuy]

I just think standing in kicking range against a hard fast kicker in general is a bad idea. It doesn't seem a notion limited to anyone with a particular approach.

True, and even more so if either one of your hands are down. This is why I think the philly shell is best used with proper distance, timing and footwork.. in boxing, but especially in KB or MMA.

 

[sourdiesel209]

I agree, for the most part. A wing block is preferable, and I'm not sure how viable the shoulder roll would be to block a kick. But Guillard wasn't shoulder rolling in that .gif, he was slipping what he thought was a jab. You can't shoulder roll a left high kick, but you can't really shoulder roll a left hook either, or at least I don't know how, and I've never seen it done.

you cant shoulder roll a left hook because its coming from your right side, duh, you should be able to wing block it with your right hand tho.. altho Ive seen this chinese or japanese boxer who shoulder rolled from both sides lol

I really doubt you can shoulder roll a high kick tho... I was taught in Muay thai to hide the head even when double forearm blocking so it doesnt graze the head... now the shoulder roll works so well in boxing partially because of the big gloves, it would be way harder to do it effectively with mma gloves... but the point is even if the kick hits your upper head it can cause damage or knock you out, and its impossible to head your whole head behind the shoulder, thus impossible to shoulder roll a high kick IMO... havent really tested is since I dont really enjoy getting kicked in the head :icon_chee

 

[Paradigm]

I agree, for the most part. A wing block is preferable, and I'm not sure how viable the shoulder roll would be to block a kick. But Guillard wasn't shoulder rolling in that .gif, he was slipping what he thought was a jab. You can't shoulder roll a left high kick, but you can't really shoulder roll a left hook either, or at least I don't know how, and I've never seen it done.

i know, but the point of me posting that gif wasnt to illustrate shoulder rolling, slipping or lack thereof. it was to show how even a grazing head kick can rock you and why using the shoulder to block a kick is a dangerous proposition.

fast forward to :31...he wasnt really going hard with the kicks on me in that combo there but had he landed with that last kick to the top of my head at 100%, im sure it would have been pretty bad for me:



as far as using the shoulder to block head kicks, i never said it couldnt be done...just that its not commonly taught (and probably ill-advised).

 

[Sinister]

True, and even more so if either one of your hands are down. This is why I think the philly shell is best used with proper distance, timing and footwork.. in boxing, but especially in KB or MMA.

In the shell defense, the hands are not down. But you're right about distance, which was a whole point to my detailed post about it.

you cant shoulder roll a left hook because its coming from your right side, duh, you should be able to wing block it with your right hand tho.. altho Ive seen this chinese or japanese boxer who shoulder rolled from both sides lol

I really doubt you can shoulder roll a high kick tho... I was taught in Muay thai to hide the head even when double forearm blocking so it doesnt graze the head... now the shoulder roll works so well in boxing partially because of the big gloves, it would be way harder to do it effectively with mma gloves... but the point is even if the kick hits your upper head it can cause damage or knock you out, and its impossible to head your whole head behind the shoulder, thus impossible to shoulder roll a high kick IMO... havent really tested is since I dont really enjoy getting kicked in the head :icon_chee

Yes, because of the GIGANTIC 8oz gloves.

And I've seen very very few fighters in MMA or Professional Muay Thai who hide their entire head behind their arms to defend themselves against high kicks.

 

[sourdiesel209]

In the shell defense, the hands are not down. But you're right about distance, which was a whole point to my detailed post about it.



Yes, because of the GIGANTIC 8oz gloves.

And I've seen very very few fighters in MMA or Professional Muay Thai who hide their entire head behind their arms to defend themselves against high kicks.

well compared to 4oz gloves, theyre huge... im guessing it would work way better with 16oz or something...

and thats what im being taught in MT, to hide your head behind the gloves so you dont risk a high kick grazing the top of your head, like it surely would happen if you choose to shoulder roll it

Ive also seen very very few professional Muay thai fighters with their lead hand down, I believe Discipulus was saying something like that, care to post some fights Disc??

 

[Discipulus]

Which do you prefer: the greatest of all time, the greatest of modern times, or some of my personal favorites?

 

[JayElectra]

well compared to 4oz gloves, theyre huge... im guessing it would work way better with 16oz or something...

and thats what im being taught in MT, to hide your head behind the gloves so you dont risk a high kick grazing the top of your head, like it surely would happen if you choose to shoulder roll it

Ive also seen very very few professional Muay thai fighters with their lead hand down, I believe Discipulus was saying something like that, care to post some fights Disc??

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

The more sourdiesel posts, the more i lolz

 

[JeetKunDoGuy]

In the shell defense, the hands are not down.

The left hand is down, no? At least that is always how I have been shown the philly shell. Left hand is down by the waist and the right hand is by the chin. Only one hand is down, not both.

 

[Sinister]

well compared to 4oz gloves, theyre huge... im guessing it would work way better with 16oz or something...

and thats what im being taught in MT, to hide your head behind the gloves so you dont risk a high kick grazing the top of your head, like it surely would happen if you choose to shoulder roll it

Ive also seen very very few professional Muay thai fighters with their lead hand down, I believe Discipulus was saying something like that, care to post some fights Disc??

Clearly youve never worn a pair of 8oz gloves if you think they can ever be referred to as huge.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

The left hand is down, no? At least that is always how I have been shown the philly shell. Left hand is down by the waist and the right hand is by the chin. Only one hand is down, not both.

The hands are not down in a "normal" sense. Take Floyd Mayweather: his hands might looks down, but for the purpose of hurting the other guy (which is the REAL purpose of having your hands up) his hands are up. Both of them.

 

[SummerStriker]

I don't think keeping your lead hand low and to the inside of your body (shoulder roll position) is a great idea vs. TD's. A high crotch or head outside single will be hard to defend from there. To get underhooks, you'd have to drag your own arm across your body. Maybe not too bad if you're standing square, but the original supposition is that you're bladed, right?

Also, hi. Longtime lurker, first time poster.

You couldn't get underhooks.

I spar like this a lot actually, because I enjoy it. I get the crossface a lot when people try to single leg me.

 

[sourdiesel209]

The more sourdiesel posts, the more i lolz

thought you had me on ignore?? :icon_neut

 

[sourdiesel209]

The hands are not down in a "normal" sense. Take Floyd Mayweather: his hands might looks down, but for the purpose of hurting the other guy (which is the REAL purpose of having your hands up) his hands are up. Both of them.

that doesnt make any sense at all...

 

[SummerStriker]

The more I practice and research, the more I realize that range, or distance, is the most important aspect of fighting. You control the range, you can control the entire fight.

I think it has to be more than that at a high level. I know a guy who did Judo as kids, wrestled in college, boxed, and went to the Olympic trials for TKD. He is pretty high level.

This guy always lets everyone else control the range. He controls the time. If you step away, he kicks. If you step in, he hits or clinches. Little works. He lets other people control the range, but he controls the time.

Being versatile with your striking and having an understanding of every range makes the timing of steps more important than distance by a huge margin, at least in my book.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I don't know SummerStriker, he sounded like he had great range control, being able to strike at whenever range his opponents want to move. Of course, timing is also a big part of it, but from the look of it he had great awareness of range and how to control it by striking at when he think it is best depends on situations.

 

[sourdiesel209]

Clearly youve never worn a pair of 8oz gloves if you think they can ever be referred to as huge.

okay you got me, I actually weigh more than 152 pounds so I use 12oz gloves

but still, even if you could shoulder roll with 4oz gloves, kicks have no padding and have a different trajectory of attack than punches...

 

[sourdiesel209]

Which do you prefer: the greatest of all time, the greatest of modern times, or some of my personal favorites?

your choice, just not the Virnochai video again... hes not even fighting with his lead hand that low, maybe a few inches lower and he brings it up depending on the range hes fighting at..

 

[Discipulus]

your choice, just not the Virnochai video again... hes not even fighting with his lead hand that low, maybe a few inches lower and he brings it up depending on the range hes fighting at..

Don't think I've ever used the Vicharnnoi video as an example of fighting with lowered hands. He keeps his hands nice and high.