International Updated: Trump says he authorised CIA in Venezuela as Maduro says 'no to regime change'

[Stoic1]

Accepting the re-definition of words to placate simple minds.

Ohhhkay.

Like "militant" or "vaccine" ?

 

[helltoupee]

Like "militant" or "vaccine" ?

Yes.

 

[Rob Battisti]

"In furtherance of political or social objectives".

What are the political or social objectives of a cartel?

Did you ignore my post? That’s a rhetorical question.

For starters, politically, they seek to weaken or destabilize state institutions to create an environment where they can operate with impunity. They work to intimidate governments to avoid crackdowns or secure favorable policies for their operations. Lastly, they seek to create a political environment that allows themselves to operate without significant resistance.

Socially, they leverage violence to intimidate civilians into compliance ensuring they have control over territories and preventing resistance or cooperation with authorities. They also always seek to gain loyalty or dependency among local populations to sustain their ranks.

This all clearly aligns with the definition. Just because it isn’t exactly the same as an AQ, it still fits.

 

[Osculater]

- Bro. I dont know what to say. Are you talking about the guys, right?

The hard working ladies, bro

 

[helltoupee]

Did you ignore my post? That’s a rhetorical question.

For starters, politically, they seek to weaken or destabilize state institutions to create an environment where they can operate with impunity. They work to intimidate governments to avoid crackdowns or secure favorable policies for their operations. Lastly, they seek to create a political environment that allows themselves to operate without significant resistance.

Socially, they leverage violence to intimidate civilians into compliance ensuring they have control over territories and preventing resistance or cooperation with authorities. They also always seek to gain loyalty or dependency among local populations to sustain their ranks.

This all clearly aligns with the definition. Just because it isn’t exactly the same as an AQ, it still fits.

Nice attempt to twist things.

The above objectives you claim, are simply in furtherance of being able to commit crime.

They don't commit crime in order to obtain such goals, which is what you are trying to argue.

As I said, words have definitions.

Terrorism is the act of committing violence to achieve a political end. Drug cartels are not participating in human trafficking as a means to your theoretical ChatGPT end game objectives. They are doing it to make money - that makes them criminals, not terrorists.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Nice attempt to twist things.

The above objectives you claim are in furtherance of being able to commit crime.

They don't commit crime in order to obtain such goals, which is what you are trying to argue.

As I said, words have definitions.

Terrorism is the act of committing violence to achieve a political end. Drug cartels are not participating in human trafficking as a means to your theoretical ChatGPT end game objectives. They are doing it to make money - that makes them criminals, not terrorists.

Are you… really arguing that the violent crime that they commit isn’t for the further perpetuation of their aims?

 

[avenue94]

Did you ignore my post? That’s a rhetorical question.

For starters, politically, they seek to weaken or destabilize state institutions to create an environment where they can operate with impunity. They work to intimidate governments to avoid crackdowns or secure favorable policies for their operations. Lastly, they seek to create a political environment that allows themselves to operate without significant resistance.

Socially, they leverage violence to intimidate civilians into compliance ensuring they have control over territories and preventing resistance or cooperation with authorities. They also always seek to gain loyalty or dependency among local populations to sustain their ranks.

This all clearly aligns with the definition. Just because it isn’t exactly the same as an AQ, it still fits.

Wanting an environment conducive to selling drugs and criminality isn't a political goal, that's a criminal goal.

They're not trying to overthrow the government or get civilians to do so.

 

[helltoupee]

Are you… really arguing that the violent crime that they commit isn’t for the further perpetuation of their aims?

I'm arguing that their aims are to make money, by committing crime.

The stuff you listed is not their end goal, no. Making money is the goal, not some political or social endeavor.

The definition of "terrorism" implies that the end goal is a political or social cause. That is not the end goal of a drug cartel.

 

[Rod1]

What's their political goal?

The political goal is to ensure compliance by law enforcement and civilians towards their activities.

 

[Rod1]

And what is the political and social objective of cartels?

Impunity to operate.

 

[Rod1]

Yeah but something soured that. Remember they held some US Oil execs in prison and it seemed "diplomatic relations" took a turn after that.

That was after sanctions.

It's weird because US oil companies seem to have no real issues paying into the democratic socialism of Nordic Countries, or even funding f the UBI that exists in Alaska. But something about Latino and African Nations requires guerilla soldiers. I wonder what it could be...

Yeah, i wonder what it could be, could it be the refugee crisis that rivals that of Syria despite not a single shot being fired or the funding of terrorist groups like FARC or ELN? or maybe the blatant use of Venezuelan resources by drug cartels.

Nah, it totally has to be oil interests, despite the fact that Maduro always allowed US companies to operate normally.

 

[helltoupee]

The political goal is to ensure compliance by law enforcement and civilians towards their activities.

That is not why they commit crime though.

Terrorism implies a means (violence/crime) to an end (social or political goals). Cartels do not exist as organizations dedicated to enacting political change.

Ensuring compliance is a means to the end goal of making money, so unless we are going to redefine the word terrorism to mean "using violence to achieve the goal of making money, instead of or in addition to, the goal of enacting political, social, or religious change", then you and Rob have it backwards.

 

[avenue94]

The political goal is to ensure compliance by law enforcement and civilians towards their activities.

That's not a political goal and never what the relevant statute was intended for.

Impunity to operate.

Again, not a political goal. They aren't seeking the change the regime or intimidate civilians into changing the regime.

If this was the intent of the law, why has it never been used this way? This is hardly the worst condition Mexico has been in, or other countries that grapple with cartels.

 

[HereticBD]

Again, not a political goal. They aren't seeking the change the regime or intimidate civilians into changing the regime.

Are you fucking serious right now? They murder and intimidate politicians, so they can act with impunity, due to that very intimidation of government officials.

nOT POLitIcAL!

My God, your guys brains are fried. Defending drug cartels now, LOL. And you wonder why you lose...

 

[avenue94]

Are you fucking serious right now? They murder and intimidate politicians, so they can act with impunity, due to that very intimidation of government officials.

nOT POLitIcAL!

Yes, for the goal of making more money. Making money is not a political or social goal in of itself.

The intention of Congress when crafting these laws was plainly not for drug smuggling.

My God, your guys brains are fried. Defending drug cartels now, LOL. And you wonder why you lose...

Never change, my dumb Canadian poster. Quote where I'm defending drug cartels.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

That is not why they commit crime though.

Terrorism implies a means (violence/crime) to an end (social or political goals). Cartels do not exist as organizations dedicated to enacting political change.

Ensuring compliance is a means to the end goal of making money, so unless we are going to redefine the word terrorism to mean "using violence to achieve the goal of making money, instead of or in addition to, the goal of enacting political, social, or religious change", then you and Rob have it backwards.

I do think it's a bit grey like I said in my original post a few pages back.

I mean, they commit drug crimes to sell drugs, I get that. But they also target police and politicians and civilians for anyone who gets in the way.

I mean, say the Mafia back in the day (I could be wrong), they would generally get pissed at anyone who targeted cops because of the heat it brought.

The cartels actually go after the cops and politicians so that poltiicians wanting to crack down on them don't apply for the job. Is intimidating and murdering politicians so they don't apply for the job or don't pursue policies a goal of changing government through violence some form of terorristic regime change? Not sure if it is, but if it's not, it's a very close sibling.

So it feels like there's two types of crimes going, one that is drug dealing, and others that has a different twist to it which is trying to control society around resisting those crimes. Can one be considered non-terrorist crime (the drug dealing part) while the other part of targeting police and politicians and civilian dissidents terroristic????

I can see how some might say yes.

 

[Rob Battisti]

I'm arguing that their aims are to make money, by committing crime.

The stuff you listed is not their end goal, no. Making money is the goal, not some political or social endeavor.

The definition of "terrorism" implies that the end goal is a political or social cause. That is not the end goal of a drug cartel.

It doesn’t.

Title 22, U.S. Code, Section 2656f(d)(2): Defines terrorism as “premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents.”

FBI Definition: Terrorism involves “the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.”

Title 22 states that the acts have to be politically motivated. I’ve shown that to be the case.

The FBI definition states it is for the “furtherance of political or social objectives”.

I’ve also shown that to be the case.

The violence they conduct is a means to an end. The “end” in this case doesn’t have the be toward something like a political revolution such as AQ with their religious aims. The end is the continuation of their operations, just like an AQ or Hamas.

Just because their end objective is different than other terrorist organizations, the means in which they attack government and non-government entities is still to influence the political and social positions to their benefit.

 

[HereticBD]

Yes, for the goal of making more money. Making money is not a political or social goal in of itself.

"The goal of making more money...by intimidating government officials, so that the government works in tandem with the cartels to protect their illegal business."

Just shut the fuck up, retard.

 

[Rob Battisti]

I do think it's a bit grey like I said in my original post a few pages back.

I mean, they commit drug crimes to sell drugs, I get that. But they also target police and politicians and civilians for anyone who gets in the way.

I mean, say the Mafia back in the day (I could be wrong), they would generally get pissed at anyone who targeted cops because of the heat it brought.

The cartels actually go after the cops and politicians so that poltiicians wanting to crack down on them don't apply for the job.

So it feels like there's two types of crimes going, one that is drug dealing, and others that has a different twist to it which is trying to control society around resisting those crimes. Can one be considered non-terrorist crime (the drug dealing part) while the other part of targeting police and politicians and civilian dissidents terroristic????

I can see how some might say yes.

He is conflating the crimes to be to for the purposes of furtherance of political or social objectives with the objective to be political or social.

It’s very clear they commit violence to further political and social objectives for the benefit of their organization.

 

[Rob Battisti]

"The goal of making more money...by intimidating government officials, so that the government works in tandem with the cartels to protect their illegal business."

Just shut the fuck up, retard.

I put a certain retard on ignore. Wonder if it’s the same one!