Unpopular S&C Beliefs

[ironwolf]

You two should bang already

I know right??? I'd hurt him though, all my kettle bell swings have given me maximum thrust power...

 

[Synapse]

I know right??? I'd hurt him though, all my kettle bell swings have given me maximum thrust power...

Unpopular belief: too many swings will literally cause you to rail your hook ups to death.

 

[ironwolf]

Unpopular belief: too many swings will literally cause you to rail your hook ups to death.

Im married...I wish I could test the theory though....no more hook ups here....oh well.

 

[Jark]

[YT]8COaMKbNrX0[/YT]

 

[Rodrigoj]

It's pretty much just a BB split. Mike Gill, an amateur strongman who use to write for Chasingkaz.com, wrote it years ago. The site closed down a long time ago. I've seen a few guys run this program for a year+ with no signs of stalling (mainly because the progression is incredibly sane).

Day 1:
Bench for warm up
Bench
Dips
Shoulder Press/Military Press

Day 2:
Front Squat warm up
Front Squat
Dumbbell Straight Leg Dead-Lift
Seated Row/Face pulls

Day 3:
Pull downs for warm up
Pull Ups
Bent over Row
Biceps

Day 4:
Dumb Bell incline Bench Press
Dips
DB Seated Shoulder
Push ups

Day 5:
Squats
Deads

It follows a 3 week cycle.
Week 1: 10-12 reps
Week 2: 7-10 reps
Week 3: 3-5 reps
Most exercises should be done for 3-6 sets, but mileage can vary. Weights or sets are normally increased after every cycle, but this is up to the person's discretion.

And then it's recommended to throw a bit of cardio on top of this as well.

This is not being discussed enough. I really would like to understand it. Would a 5 day program like that be better for beginner strength? For the most experienced amongs us, please put your toughts on this.
Tosa, Miaou, JauntyAngle, Eric Brown what is your take on this?

 

[bowlie]

This is not being discussed enough. I really would like to understand it. Would a 5 day split program like that be better for beginner strength? For the most experienced amongs us, please put your toughts on this.
Tosa, Miaou, JauntyAngle, Eric Brown what is your take on this?

i feel like it would be great for increasing work capacity, and that although intensity would suffer initially it would work well for beginners. But thats just me thinking. But I think most S&C coaches recommend lifting 3 times / week on top of sports. If you only lift, lift more.

also I think strength training is only useful for strength sports, sports where the movements are classed as more than GPP, or where an athlete is trying to gain weight. My reasoning is that the neurological aspect of strength is already built into power sports or sports with a power element like boxing. I think a boxer with good trainng already has a well developed CNS, so the only benefit strength training can give is to increase muscle mass, but that is only helpful as long as the athlete has room to put on weight in their weight class. After that, strength training is only useful as injury prevention and as a way to maintain muscle mass

 

[DrBdan]

I love the idea behind this thread, though I got too excited to post before I read the whole thing. Here's a few things:

-I will take that even further. S&C itself is almost useless for athletes.

Are you being hyperbolic here? I would agree that S&C is less useful than natural talent and skill training but "almost useless" seems a bit extreme.

 

[Tosa]

This is not being discussed enough. I really would like to understand it. Would a 5 day program like that be better for beginner strength? For the most experienced amongs us, please put your toughts on this.
Tosa, Miaou, JauntyAngle, Eric Brown what is your take on this?

I don't like it at all. A big part of getting stronger is practicing the movement skills involved with the lifts. That alone suggests practicing basic lifts more often is far better - just like any skill.

And while there certainly are great powerlifters and strength athletes who train the lifts once a week, most benefit from more frequency and volume.

 

[miaou]

This is not being discussed enough. I really would like to understand it. Would a 5 day program like that be better for beginner strength? For the most experienced amongs us, please put your toughts on this.
Tosa, Miaou, JauntyAngle, Eric Brown what is your take on this?

For beginners in "general strength training", the most important things are learning proper technique, diagnosing dysfunctions and increasing the training stress (intensity/volume/frequency) gradually. Beyond those points, programming is largely inconsequential (as long as the exercise selection is half decent).

It is important to keep in mind that not all beginners are equal (and, oftentimes, the older they begin training the wider the discrepancies between individuals are). One-size-fits-all beginner programs are just not ideal (if proper function and long-term athletic development are your goals). I've trained people who would perform full squats with perfect technique within a few training sessions, and I've trained people who would need weeks of drilling to get the basic hip hinge pattern (simple RDLs/GMs) down. In the extremes, I've trained individuals who would perform a near-perfect full squat the first time they ever tried it, and individuals who wouldn't be able to perform a proper moderate-intensity deadlift after months of lifting.

 

[bowlie]

I don't like it at all. A big part of getting stronger is practicing the movement skills involved with the lifts. That alone suggests practicing basic lifts more often is far better - just like any skill.

And while there certainly are great powerlifters and strength athletes who train the lifts once a week, most benefit from more frequency and volume.

What about more frequent training in general? I.e.5 days a week but maybe just alternating between squats, press and chins one day, deads bench and rows the other? Its basically ss, and if athletes can do SS plus sports training, i think a pure strength athlete could manage 5 sessions

 

[Seriously-Dead]

For beginners in "general strength training", the most important things are learning proper technique, diagnosing dysfunctions and increasing the training stress (intensity/volume/frequency) gradually. Beyond those points, programming is largely inconsequential (as long as the exercise selection is half decent).

It is important to keep in mind that not all beginners are equal (and, oftentimes, the older they begin training the wider the discrepancies between individuals are). One-size-fits-all beginner programs are just not ideal (if proper function and long-term athletic development are your goals). I've trained people who would perform full squats with perfect technique within a few training sessions, and I've trained people who would need weeks of drilling to get the basic hip hinge pattern (simple RDLs/GMs) down. In the extremes, I've trained individuals who would perform a near-perfect full squat the first time they ever tried it, and individuals who wouldn't be able to perform a proper moderate-intensity deadlift after months of lifting.

This is exactly it. When I talked about the program I said "something like MBP", in which I meant something that gets you into the gym every day, doing higher volume than SS or 5x5 programs, undulating intensity and volume over time, while covering all the basic movements.

One size fits all programs are inherently weaker. People have different starting places and are best suited working under a coach with a tailored program. But I think many beginners would do well with a program using the general principles behind MBP. And that could definitely mean doing the basic lifts (squat, dead, bench) more often.

 

[Tosa]

What about more frequent training in general? I.e.5 days a week but maybe just alternating between squats, press and chins one day, deads bench and rows the other? Its basically ss, and if athletes can do SS plus sports training, i think a pure strength athlete could manage 5 sessions

Eventually, yes, a lot of pure strength athletes could do very well on 5 sessions a week. I know that more frequent training is preferred by a lot of the guys I train with, if their schedule allows.

But three days a week is still a pretty reasonable place for a beginner to start - it's still plenty of practice and stimulus. Ability to recover from increasing training volume and frequency is one thing that generally increases with training. I'm sure if you started a beginner light enough, and progressed gradually enough, they could recover well from training five days a week, but training more days a week isn't the goal, getting stronger is.

IMO, the jump from training three to four, or four to five days can actually be more significant than it sounds. (Assuming MWFS, and MTWFS, respectively) From three to four days, you switch from two days of rest, and always having a rest day after each session, to now never having more than one rest day in a row, and training two days in a row. From four to five days, you're now always training days in a row, with rest days reduced by a third.

You also have to be able to account for any fatigue. If it's your third training day in a row, you can still do productive work, but things probably won't be feeling the same as they did on the first day. Which isn't something that a beginner, without coaching, should not be expected to do.

 

[Seriously-Dead]

But three days a week is still a pretty reasonable place for a beginner to start - it's still plenty of practice and stimulus. Ability to recover from increasing training volume and frequency is one thing that generally increases with training. I'm sure if you started a beginner light enough, and progressed gradually enough, they could recover well from training five days a week, but training more days a week isn't the goal, getting stronger is.

IMO, the jump from training three to four, or four to five days can actually be more significant than it sounds. (Assuming MWFS, and MTWFS, respectively) From three to four days, you switch from two days of rest, and always having a rest day after each session, to now never having more than one rest day in a row, and training two days in a row. From four to five days, you're now always training days in a row, with rest days reduced by a third.

You also have to be able to account for any fatigue. If it's your third training day in a row, you can still do productive work, but things probably won't be feeling the same as they did on the first day. Which isn't something that a beginner, without coaching, should not be expected to do.

This is so misguided, it's not even funny - and it highlights exactly what's so wrong with the SS and 5x5 mindset. Barring that your programming isn't complete garbage, in no universe does a person get stronger by training less. Work matters, total volume matters, practice matters. There is always a minimum amount of work that can be done each day that will lead to further improvements. Doing the minimum amount of work is always better than not doing it at all, even when it comes to recovery.

Getting to the gym as often as possible is the first hurdle that your average, unathletic joe, should be trying to overcome. Programs that put artificial limits on this are exactly what's wrong with fitness for the general population.

 

[Babba]

the newest in programming in my country is working out every day except one rest day per week. doing all the major lifts cycling through the week. the principal being maximizing the time doing each of the lifts, with variations.

producing amongst others, a 2,6 k total in PLing

 

[ssdd]

Ive wanted to try a 5 day split for a while, basically an upper/lower split with an added day for more squatting. I only have experience with Wendler's 531 upper/lower split, and the following exercise selection and format is based on my experience with the simplest strength template from the second edition ebook:

Monday: Deadlift 531 + assistance (squat variation, hamstrings, lower back, abs)
Tuesday: off
Wednesday: Squat @ deload % + abs or whatever
Thursday: Bench 531 + assistance (SOHP/bench variation, lats, upper back, bis, tris)
Friday: Squat 531 + assistance (DL variation, hamstrings, lower back, abs)
Saturday: off
Sunday: SOHP 531 + assistance (bench or bench variation, lats, upper back, bis, tris)

A true beginner would still probably be better off reaching their limits on a simple linear program before switching to something like that though. Like, what is the point of undulating loads if you aren't sure how much weight you can handle. 6-12 weeks on LP isnt really that much of a time commitment to find out where you stand.

 

[Tosa]

This is so misguided, it's not even funny - and it highlights exactly what's so wrong with the SS and 5x5 mindset.

Lots of other approaches use a three day a week program, especially for beginners.

Barring that your programming isn't complete garbage, in no universe does a person get stronger by training less. Work matters, total volume matters, practice matters.

A person gets stronger by training the right amount to provide the necessary stimulus and recover. Which can eventually be huge volumes and frequencies, but it's not where you start.

There is always a minimum amount of work that can be done each day that will lead to further improvements. Doing the minimum amount of work is always better than not doing it at all, even when it comes to recovery.

But that minimum amount of work doesn't mean training the big lifts. Which is what we're talking about, not any other activity that could be done on other days.

Getting to the gym as often as possible is the first hurdle that your average, unathletic joe, should be trying to overcome.

Going to the gym, or just exercising, regularly, is the first hurdle. If you expect someone to go from training no days a week, to lifting six days a week, that's just not especially realistic. You could more reasonably expect them to lift three days a week, and do something active the other days of the week, though.

Programs that put artificial limits on this are exactly what's wrong with fitness for the general population.

I hardly think that's a major issue with fitness and the general population. Most of them have never even heard of SS or a 5x5.

 

[Babba]

Ive wanted to try a 5 day split for a while, basically an upper/lower split with an added day for more squatting. I only have experience with Wendler's 531 upper/lower split, and the following exercise selection and format is based on my experience with the simplest strength template from the second edition ebook:

Monday: Deadlift 531 + assistance (squat variation, hamstrings, lower back, abs)
Tuesday: off
Wednesday: Squat @ deload % + abs or whatever
Thursday: Bench 531 + assistance (SOHP/bench variation, lats, upper back, bis, tris)
Friday: Squat 531 + assistance (DL variation, hamstrings, lower back, abs)
Saturday: off
Sunday: SOHP 531 + assistance (bench or bench variation, lats, upper back, bis, tris)

A true beginner would still probably be better off reaching their limits on a simple linear program before switching to something like that though. Like, what is the point of undulating loads if you aren't sure how much weight you can handle. 6-12 weeks on LP isnt really that much of a time commitment to find out where you stand.

that looks good, you'e doing a shtload of overhead pressing though. whats the reason?

 

[bowlie]

Sure, going from inactive to lifting 5/6 times a week aint smart. I was kind of taking beginner as someone that lifts but not seriously. Maybe im talking about intermediate people there though. If someone wanted to train 5 days a week, how would you do it? i guess undulating intensity is a must when training similar movements on consequtive days? I.e. if I squat on monday, only do lighht deadlifts tuesday?

 

[MMouse]

Someone from being inactive to training 5/6 days a week is possible, no?

I mean everything at first should be light and at the most moderate intensity since the goal here is to practice technique, getting coordinated and mobile at first.

How ever long that takes varies from person to person but nevertheless can train throughout the week.

 

[Tosa]

Sure, going from inactive to lifting 5/6 times a week aint smart. I was kind of taking beginner as someone that lifts but not seriously. Maybe im talking about intermediate people there though. If someone wanted to train 5 days a week, how would you do it? i guess undulating intensity is a must when training similar movements on consequtive days? I.e. if I squat on monday, only do lighht deadlifts tuesday?

The general approach is to gradually add training days, and to have to work load on a just added day being fairly light. So if you were adding a Saturday to a MWF routine - lets say one where you do a squat, bench and pull exercise each session, you'd start off with lighter squats, or a less taxing squat variant, same for bench, although probably not as light, and your pulling might just be upper back work and/or light PC work.

Unless you're doing some kind of upper/lower split, training load will undulate, as you said. How it occurs can vary - typically lighter days will be deliberately planned, although in some cases the lighter days can depend on feel/how well the weight moves - for example, using some sort of auto-regulatory approach, like RTS.

As for at what point do you add days? I'd say if the person has been training with a particular number of days per week for a few months, and is willing and able to try adding a day, go ahead. I see a lot of people benefit from greater frequencies and volumes than you typically see recommended online, but it's important to increase these things gradually.

As for exactly how to lay out a five day routine - there's a lot of ways to do that, but if you just make gradual step-by-step changes from your current programming, you should arrive at something fairly naturally. I could give a more specific answer with a more specific program in mind.