Unpopular opinion : Sometimes title defenses don't mean much

[frandie2b]

Well, of course they have a value in a champion's legacy, but we have to put things in perspective.

I often read that a champion is not 'legit' because he doesn't have a lot of title defenses. Well, if the fighter in question went on a 10 fights win streak and cleaned out the division before winning the belt, then in my opinion he doesn't need 10 title defenses to be considered 'legit'.

Let's take 2 opposite examples : Demetrious Johnson and Tony Ferguson

- Demetrious Johnson, once considered one of the most dominant UFC champion, got the FLW belt after only 2 victories. He then went on a 11 fights win streak before losing to Cejudo, which means he had 11 title defenses.

- Tony Ferguson will fight Khabib for the LW title. If he beats Khabib and becomes the champ, he'll be on a 13 fights win streak, and completely have cleaned out the division while having ZERO title defenses.

My point is : Is Demetrious Johnson more legit than Tony Ferg because he has more title defenses ? I don't believe so.

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

Well, of course they have a value in a champion's legacy, but we have to put things in perspective.

I often read that a champion is not 'legit' because he doesn't have a lot of title defenses. Well, if the fighter in question went on a 10 fights win streak and cleaned out the division before winning the belt, then in my opinion he doesn't need 10 title defenses to be considered 'legit'.

Let's take 2 opposite examples : Demetrious Johnson and Tony Ferguson

- Demetrious Johnson, once considered one of the most dominant UFC champion, got the FLW belt after only 2 victories. He then went on a 11 fights win streak before losing to Cejudo, which means he had 11 title defenses.

- Tony Ferguson will fight Khabib for the LW title. If he beats Khabib and becomes the champ, he'll be on a 13 fights win streak, and completely have cleaned out the division while having ZERO title defenses.

My point is : Is Demetrious Johnson more legit than Tony Ferg because he has more title defenses ? I don't believe so.

Yeah, you usually only see these scenarios in extremely competitive divisions with champions that struggle to stay active. There’s normally plenty of matchups that haven’t been explored, but obviously, everything is situational. In most cases there’s still a lot of opponents to take on.

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

Also, as much as I love t ferg, it’s a hard argument putting him over DJ. I think that’s a pretty wild stretch considering many don’t even put khabib over DJ yet, and he’s the favorite going into the fight.

 

[Jackonfire]

It used to be fans understood only champs can clean out a division. Champs have (or used to) very little leeway when it comes to who they fight. And they generally are fighting the best, scheduled for 5 rounds every time out.

Contenders can string together wins with carefully chosen opponents in 3 round fights.

Successful title defenses are what set champions apart from contenders.

 

[Deadwing88]

Ferguson has in no way, cleaned out the division..?

Poirier, Gaethje, McGregor etc.. numerous fighters in the top 15 he has yet to fight.

 

[loisestrad]

- Tony Ferguson will fight Khabib for the LW title. If he beats Khabib and becomes the champ, he'll be on a 13 fights win streak, and completely have cleaned out the division while having ZERO title defenses.

He hasn't beat Conor. So he hasn't cleaned out the division. That's a fact.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

I would put DJ higher than Tony on the "P4P GOAT" list. But I count longevity more than most. To me, dominating a division for a long time has a lot more value than to do what BJ or Conor did, and move up and around a bunch.

Others think DJ is nothing more than a Ronda Rousey and dominated an immature division.

That's the beauty of "P4P GOAT". Not only can it mean whatever the fuck you want, but one can also valuate different criteria differently. If you choose to value title defenses lower in your list of meaningful criteria for this hypothetical award, no one can tell you otherwise. Because it's all meaningless anyways.

Which is exactly why I avoid bothering with the topic in the first place.

 

[Mammothman]

Cleaned up the division? lol Ferguson have a lot of work to do, there are guys like Dustin, Gaethje and even Conor waiting for him with their arms open and fists closed.

Mighty Mouse have a way better run than Ferguson and is not even close, he truly cleaned up his division and was starting to giving rematches to most of his opponents, not only that he dominated all of them unlike Ferguson that was struggling, getting mounted and gettting kocked down with many of his opponents. and MM did all of this while being champ and was very active, another thing Ferguson can say.

Tony is a LW ATG for sure but he is not in the level of MM, there are levels to this son....

 

[frandie2b]

Also, as much as I love t ferg, it’s a hard argument putting him over DJ. I think that’s a pretty wild stretch considering many don’t even put khabib over DJ yet, and he’s the favorite going into the fight.

The problem with DJ is that even tho he had a lot of title defenses, it was in a non very competitive division, and he only needed 1 win to get a title shot.

Wins / title defenses aside, DJ's skills were absolutely incredible, he was the most complete champ no doubt.

 

[lawrencel2]

to me, it seems being the champ and retaining a title has added difficulty over the typical non-champ fight. Seems like the fighters have more pressure, the whole division is planning their attack many fights out, and obviously staying motivated once you're at the top of the hill. Thats why I am less impressed with someone getting the title, compared to defending it a bunch.

 

[ScarfaceJr]

Harder to stay at the top of the hill when everyone is gunning for you than it is to get up there.

 

[frandie2b]

He hasn't beat Conor. So he hasn't cleaned out the division. That's a fact.

Conor has had 2 fights at LW in the UFC, and shouldn't even be ranked in that division.

Gaethje is the only deserving contender.

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

The problem with DJ is that even tho he had a lot of title defenses, it was in a non very competitive division, and he only needed 1 win to get a title shot.

Wins / title defenses aside, DJ's skills were absolutely incredible, he was the most complete champ no doubt.

You can’t fault someone for not having anyone to fight. He did everything we could have asked of him. I always question when people say “the level of competition wasn’t high enough”, because realistically if you can’t think of any moves to other orgs, or fights they could have taken on at that weight class, it’s hard to criticize them.

 

[Kel Guapo]

conor has had 4 belts over two promotions. how many defenses?

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Everyone should aspire to attaining the title and then getting stripped. Great stuff

 

[moogie101]

All depends who you are defending against. DJ has been brought up, but he was levels above a very uncompetitive division so regardless of how many defences he made the majority of fans didn't care & few acknowledged his achievement when he broke Anderson's record of defences whilst remaining largely untested.

However title defences is still a very simple metric that the fans can use to judge a fighter.

 

[frandie2b]

You can’t fault someone for not having anyone to fight. He did everything we could have asked of him. I always question when people say “the level of competition wasn’t high enough”, because realistically if you can’t think of any moves to other orgs, or fights they could have taken on at that weight class, it’s hard to criticize them.

And I completely agree, you can only fight what the division has to offer.

But there are divisions that are more competitive/deep than others.

 

[Masturbin]

If you take the concurent 155 top 10:

Tony has won against the number 5 Donald Cerrone, the number 8 Kevin Lee and that's it
You can add RDA + Barboza but they both changed weightclasses and are not that much relevant now.


As for Dj he won againt the number 1,3,4,6 and 7 before his upset against Cejudo

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

And I completely agree, you can only fight what the division has to offer.

But there are divisions that are more competitive/deep than others.

Absolutely. When it comes to “goat” or “p4p” talks, you typically see representatives from each weight class compared. It’s pretty rare to see someone up there that isnt/wasn’t a champion. Had DJ had his length of run and consistency against world beaters we’d see him seriously considered in the GOAT talks, there’s no doubt that’s held him back. But to put guys that are arguably 2nd or 3rd best in the CURRENT division is a stretch. Let alone all time in their division.

what I will say is if tony beats khabib all of a sudden this whole thing changes right? He throws together a few more big wins and it wouldn’t be hard to slide into that “LW goat” role.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

edit, never mind. i done went and engaged in a topic i don't care about. no reason for that.