Social Uncomfortable Conversations: "The right kind of refugee"

[dittohead84]

It's natural for people to warm more to those like them initially, and ones close to home. It's not just a Caucasian trait

 

[Rand M Arthur]

I think you may be missing the point of my post. Also, I'm not manipulating anything - you have political leaders actually saying that since this happening to white Europeans, it makes the situation more "tragic".

With that being said, I am not saying that any reason is good or bad, I am more interested in what drives perceived differences in what constitutes good or bad refugees.

As others have pointed out, the western world has been taking in minority refugees for decades - and that decision has largely been met with reticents and frustration that countries seem more interested in catering to the needs of of foreigners, than they are their own people. This is a frustration I share, as I have been a vocal critic of Canada's immigration and refugee policy - we grossly neglect our indigenous communities.

Thus far though, the world has welcomed Ukranian's with open arms (as they should), but historically, have been far less willing to do so when it comes to other displaced people.

Canada need to fix the legacy of First Nation abuse before a single dollar is spent on other countries aid. Abolish the reserve system, make massive infastructure investments into the land on the larger reserves to make them economic centres in their own right, land swap the smaller uneconomical reserves, plough money into training and education to create a generation of First Nation businessmen and businesswomen. If the DOS can build Atlanta into what it is, then I don't see why Winnipeg or Saskatoon couldn't do something similar. Also, end the two tier legal system, it actually harms people. Since most crime is commited against people within your own community, predetors getting a slap onnthe wrist because of the colour of their skin only lets them terrorize their own community more.

 

[gspieler]

So, we're questioining why a large number of women/children from a literal war zone next door, are more readily-welcomed than large numbers of able-bodied male "economic migrants" from half a world away? Gee...total mystery.

 

[Ramon Antonio]

So, we're questioining why a large numbers of women/children from a literal war zone next door, are more readily-welcomed than large numbers of able-bodied male "economic migrants" from half a world away? Gee...total mystery.

Yeah and somehow this is supposed to make us feel uncomfortable.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

I want to preface this by saying that the situation in the Ukraine is tragic, and civilians looking to leave the country should be welcomed by others who have the capacity to take them in.

With that being said, the Ukrainian crisis has highlighted the disparate response by the western world in how it perceives and treats refugees. Some people have been very blunt in their assessment of the situation

"These are not refugees from Syria, these are from Ukraine, they are Christians, they are white, they look very similar to us."

“It’s really emotional for me because I see European people with blue eyes and blonde hair being killed…”

There are dozens of examples of this, but you get my point - the humanitarian response to the Ukrainian crisis has been overwhelming, with millions of dollars being donated to help provide aide, countries opening their borders to welcome displaced people. Canada is even offering immediate work permits and access to social services, while some of our universities are eliminating tuition for foreign students from the Ukraine.

I am not principally opposed to any of these things - I think that when you have the ability to help, you should help. I am more interested in hearing your thoughts as to why there is a double standard - the notion of a "good refugee" and a "bad refugee". Is it something as simple as race, or are their dimensions of the Ukrainian conflict that make the world more sympathetic to their displacement?

Personally, I think there are three primary drivers:
1) The most obvious one being race and to a lesser degree, religion. Given that Ukrainian's "look like us" and their culture and values are seemingly more compatible and relatable to the average Westerner.
2) Ukraine enjoyed a (relative) degree of affluence and development relative to other countries prone to conflict, and their displacement is seen as something that nobody would have expected. If it could happen there, it could happen here.
3) There are broader global implications associated with the conflict and Russia being seen as a growing aggressor. As a result, we want to support Ukraine and its people, in a demonstration to show countries like Russia and China that the world will not tolerate bullies.

I do however find it somewhat perverse that we are able to generate hundreds of millions of dollars to support Ukraine and it's people, but the world balks at providing meaningful aid to war torn countries where children are literally starving to death. When Syrian refugees were fleeing the Putin backed Assad regime, they were turned away at gun point or faced razor wire fences. There are numerous stories of families who walked hundreds of kilometers to flee gang violence in Central America, only to be turned away by American border agents.

This is a topic that hits closer to home, as I once worked on a project in Yemen (Kharaz refugee camp) and witnessed saw what the ravages of civil war could do to displaced people.

If we have room for one, but not the other, what should the guiding criteria be? What makes a good refugee, and why do we have sympathy for some, but not all?

For the record, this isn't some sort of race baiting topic, I am genuinely curious - every country should have the right decide who they let in, using whatever criteria they want.

What @nostradumbass said on the 1st reply.

Plus there are dozens of relief efforts for other war torn regions (including Syria).

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Even Ukraine's foreign minister admitted they are being racist towards black refugees at the border

I'm guessing part of that has to do with the fact that foreigners came to Ukraine for school or to work and are fleeing now insted of fighting for it.

 

[salamander]

This woman completely destroys racial bias that exist in media

I enjoy listening to WION and Gravitas. A mild India bias, but they usually shoot straight.

Rachel Maddow, aka the American KD Lang, can only dream of being half as competent as Palki Sharma Upadhyay.

In terms of fawning media bias for Ukraine I ain't mad: Nigerians immigrants quietly do the best numbers in terms of education and prosperity when they come to North America. It's something that gives me a sense of low key pride.

And it also pisses off RIPWarrior, which is always good.

We don't need the media to suck our giant dicks. We just do the hustle.

EDIT: Can't believe I actually liked a post from your crazy ass.

 

[salamander]

delete: insomnia posting

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Ukrainian refugees are women, children and the elderly. These African and Syrian refugees are mostly fighting age males.

And yet a large portion of them were accepted.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I think you may be missing the point of my post. Also, I'm not manipulating anything - you have political leaders actually saying that since this happening to white Europeans, it makes the situation more "tragic".

With that being said, I am not saying that any reason is good or bad, I am more interested in what drives perceived differences in what constitutes good or bad refugees.

As others have pointed out, the western world has been taking in minority refugees for decades - and that decision has largely been met with reticents and frustration that countries seem more interested in catering to the needs of of foreigners, than they are their own people. This is a frustration I share, as I have been a vocal critic of Canada's immigration and refugee policy - we grossly neglect our indigenous communities.

Thus far though, the world has welcomed Ukranian's with open arms (as they should), but historically, have been far less willing to do so when it comes to other displaced people.

I think the reactions to your thread kind of prove the point you're making. You typed out a pretty fair take on it and yet look at how quick posters were to dismiss your POV because you even brought the topic up, not to mention how they look at how quick they were undermine the legitimacy of the non-European refugees' right to asylum vs the Ukrainians and how the former are just barbarians and cowards.

TL/DR TS: Wah muh racism!!!

That's not what he said but of course you'd be the kind of doofus to react this way. Can't mention race without the goof patrol clutching their pearls even if you do it in a nuanced and balanced way like TS did, just unreal how far some of your heads are up your own asses.

 

[Islam Imamate]

It's a common misconception to say that only the western world accepts forced migration (migration as a result of physical displacent, and not driven by economic motives):

Not only that but Western countries are in many case directly responsible for the instability in many of these non-European countries. You have the US adventure in Iraq which famously went terrible and so not to be outdone the UK and France decided to go on their adventure in Libya and destroyed yet another country.

One fair point that people make is that a lot of the refugees who make it to the West are young males but there's a reason for that. Most of the women and children end up in the immediate countries and got shoved into refugee camps. Its better than being in the war zone but often they're in limbo since countries like Lebanon are not in a position to absorb a refugee population that would amount to 20% of its entire population so they house them in refugees camps where they're not allowed to legally find work. Plus its not like countries like Lebanon aren't unstable in their own right. So the young men make the dangerous journey, whether by foot or across the Mediterranean, to see if they can not only get asylum but also family reunification. Having women and children brave a dangerous trip only for the whole family to be sent back isn't exactly in their best interest.

Ukraine on the other hand borders a NATO country so its easier to just get all the women and children out of there and into a country where they have a good chance of being reasonably integrated while still having economic opportunity and security. Syrian refugees don't really have that. the most stable and wealthy country next to them is Turkey which has taken in millions and has faced its own stability problems due to the Syrian civil war.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Ukrainian refugees are women, children and the elderly. These African and Syrian refugees are mostly fighting age males.

And yet a large portion of them were accepted.

Of course, pretty easy to send the women, children, and elderly away when safe harbor is a train ride of a few hours away. I believe there were trains from Aleopp, Hama, and Damascus to cities in Southeast Turkey and I imagine most of the women/kids/elderly took those early on before they were out of use, hence Turkey being the nation that houses the most Syrian refugees.

But for women and children to go from Syria to Europe? Especially the poor later on in the war? Well, you gotta risk this happening

So not some mystery as to why women and children weren't making the trip. Kind of odd that this obvious point escapes so many people.

 

[ElKarlo]

That's not what he said but of course you'd be the kind of doofus to react this way. Can't mention race without the goof patrol clutching their pearls even if you do it in a nuanced and balanced way like TS did, just unreal how far some of your heads are up your own asses.

Meh. Maybe race shouldn't be mentioned and cried about in every instance there is? Maybe stop crying racism every single time and I won't react that way to it.

 

[Garnet_StrongerThanYou]

The bad kind of refugees are the ones that come from a culture stuck in the year 700. I wouldn't be inviting the Vikings to stay the night either.

I’m from one of those backwards countries with cultures from 1000 years ago. Honour killings and all that jazz.

Me and my kid though pretty much live the same lives as average Canadians though.

Values are what matter. I don't care what color you are. If you have shitty values and your culture is what our society considers immoral, then fuck off. Stay where you are.

I like this attitude.

What happened to America or Canada being a melting pot.

you show up and you’re American now.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Meh. Maybe race shouldn't be mentioned and cried about in every instance there is? Maybe stop crying racism every single time and I won't react that way to it.

Did you read the OP ya goof? There have been multiple examples of people on air talking about how the situation in Ukraine is different because of their race. No one's reading between the lines here, the direct quotes themselves read like this

"These are not refugees from Syria, these are from Ukraine, they are Christians, they are white, they look very similar to us."

“It’s really emotional for me because I see European people with blue eyes and blonde hair being killed…”

Why shouldn't people point out the obvious racism here? TS didn't even do it in a hysterical way, he did it in a pretty even handed manner and yet that was still enough to get you crying about the race card.

 

[bobgeese]

I’m from one of those backwards countries with cultures from 1000 years ago. Honour killings and all that jazz.

Me and my kid though pretty much live the same lives as average Canadians though.




I like this attitude.

What happened to America or Canada being a melting pot.

you show up and you’re American now.

I assume you came under "normal" conditions? I have absolutely zero problem with immigrants coming from countries through the normal process. The folks that do so are looking too join and contribute to Western civilization, and most often do;

The problem is when a horde of people attempt to flood a country and bring with them their seventh century mindset.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I’m from one of those backwards countries with cultures from 1000 years ago. Honour killings and all that jazz.

Me and my kid though pretty much live the same lives as average Canadians though.




I like this attitude.

What happened to America or Canada being a melting pot.

you show up and you’re American now.

Its not even like Syria was that much of a backwards shithole, it had a fairly sizeable middle class with fairly secular values. Some of these goofs seem to think that outside of the Gulf every Muslim country is and always was as poor as Afghanistan.

 

[Islam Imamate]

They wernt saying shit when white Russians in Donbass were getting shelled for 8 years by Ukrainains.

It's not about whiteness.

It's about worthy and unworthy victims in the geo-politics game. Ukrainans are worthy victims because we oppose Russia.

That's the POV of the people in power, they're not as dumb as some of the posters here who care about skin color or religion. Not that that's shocking, I've been in the WR long enough to expect that. But what was surprising was how the media was willing to run with overtly racist talking points around the crisis.

 

[ElKarlo]

Did you read the OP ya goof? There have been multiple examples of people on air talking about how the situation in Ukraine is different because of their race. No one's reading between the lines here, the direct quotes themselves read like this

Why shouldn't people point out the obvious racism here? TS didn't even do it in a hysterical way, he did it in a pretty even handed manner and yet that was still enough to get you crying about the race card.

I read. So we should base this off of bad hot takes? Just wondering what the standard is with that

 

[Garnet_StrongerThanYou]

Its not even like Syria was that much of a backwards shithole, it had a fairly sizeable middle class with fairly secular values. Some of these goofs seem to think that outside of the Gulf every Muslim country is and always was as poor as Afghanistan.[/QUOTE



yea a big difference between Afghanistan and Dubai