UFC 225 - Whittaker vs Romero 2 - Chicago

[mkess101]

well we're talking about MMA, i dont think anyone wants to have the same athletic gifts as a kenyan marathon runner lol

Not solely no, LOL. But given that to varying degrees all MMA fighters possess SOME other abilities of the fast twitch variety, you'd agree that stamina is also a vital component of success. How many times do we see guys who are relatively close in size, strength, speed, and technique and the fight simply comes down to one guy having better conditioning?

If you look at Yoel, nobody has physically dominated him. Jacare and Kennedy held their own, but when fresh Yoel has always looked like the better "athlete". But when he tires, he doesn't. He got handled easily by a guy with an injured leg over the second half of their fight mostly due to that guy simply having better cardio than he did.

I guess I'd lean toward Jones as the best pure athlete if we're talking about a body designed for this sport? He's ragdolled most guys he's fought and unlike Yoel has shown he can keep his pace up over 25 minutes. That said, maybe Yoel at 27, 28, 29 would have been the same? It's a tough comparison since Yoel entered MMA at such a relatively advanced age.

 

[MT6ix]

Ever listen to that JRE episode with Yoel? Dude's been doing athletics his whole life. Hand picked as a child in cuba to compete in sports. They saw raw physical talent in him.

Really interesting interview, especially with how Cuba handles it's athletes from what I remember and the attention to detail.

 

[iGnP]

Not solely no, LOL. But given that to varying degrees all MMA fighters possess SOME other abilities of the fast twitch variety, you'd agree that stamina is also a vital component of success. How many times do we see guys who are relatively close in size, strength, speed, and technique and the fight simply comes down to one guy having better conditioning?

If you look at Yoel, nobody has physically dominated him. Jacare and Kennedy held their own, but when fresh Yoel has always looked like the better "athlete". But when he tires, he doesn't. He got handled easily by a guy with an injured leg over the second half of their fight mostly due to that guy simply having better cardio than he did.

I guess I'd lean toward Jones as the best pure athlete if we're talking about a body designed for this sport? He's ragdolled most guys he's fought and unlike Yoel has shown he can keep his pace up over 25 minutes. That said, maybe Yoel at 27, 28, 29 would have been the same? It's a tough comparison since Yoel entered MMA at such a relatively advanced age.

I dont agree. If JJ isn't 6'4 with an 84 in reach and a frame that allows him to make 205, we're not even considering him as one of the best athletes, let alone the best.

and stamina is more of a nod to work ethic than it is genetics/athleticism. obv Yoel has a ton of muscle mass that needs oxygen but MM's gas tank isn't something he was blessed with

 

[mkess101]

I dont agree. If JJ isn't 6'4 with an 84 in reach and a frame that allows him to make 205, we're not even considering him as one of the best athletes, let alone the best.

and stamina is more of a nod to work ethic than it is genetics/athleticism. obv Yoel has a ton of muscle mass that needs oxygen but MM's gas tank isn't something he was blessed with

Man, I disagree about stamina. Yeah, you can improve it. But guys absolutely just have different genetic cardio ceilings too. No matter how much you or I train, we could never even begin to keep up with the elite distance runners in the world right?

And Jones being 6'4" with that wingspan PLUS having the functional strength and stamina to be so successful is part of his genetic makeup right? All of it combines to make him the "athlete" he is. That's sort of my point. Are there hard and fast parameters that define what makes someone an "athlete"?

 

[joenewbie]

well we're talking about MMA, i dont think anyone wants to have the same athletic gifts as a kenyan marathon runner lol

As someone who has run several marathons, and has better cardio fitness than my friends, I can verify that hard grappling is a totally different beast than long distance running. Granted my friends have been doing BJJ and wrestling longer than I have (my technique pretty much sucks) and outweigh me by 20-30 lbs but my heart rate skyrockets after just a few minutes of grappling. The difference though is once we are both tired and rest in between rounds I recovery faster than they do. An MMA fighter with good cardio fitness is going to recover after a ref stands them up and at the start of each round faster than someone with poor fitness.

Edit: And it has been mentioned on this forum that often a fighters cardio or "gas tank" has a lot to do with how beat up they are. The UFC commentators often comment on a losing fighter's gas tank but I'm sure getting beat up puts the body into shock or some form of distress which affects cardio output.

 

[iGnP]

Man, I disagree about stamina. Yeah, you can improve it. But guys absolutely just have different genetic cardio ceilings too. No matter how much you or I train, we could never even begin to keep up with the elite distance runners in the world right?

And Jones being 6'4" with that wingspan PLUS having the functional strength and stamina to be so successful is part of his genetic makeup right? All of it combines to make him the "athlete" he is. That's sort of my point. Are there hard and fast parameters that define what makes someone an "athlete"?

that's a loaded question. you're comparing an average person to the elite in the world. but do i think i could bring my stamina up to an average UFC 185 lbs-ers stamina? of course i do, given the time and proper training

lol cmon man you're slowly turning the conversation about athleticism into who has better genetics. the definition of athleticism is:

the physical qualities that are characteristic of athletes, such as strength, fitness, and agility.

JJ couldn't find the field on his HS football team until his senior year because he was too slow for a skill position and too weak to play in the trenches. and this you're comparing to an olympic level athlete who has seamlessly transitioned into MMA and has largely had success without having to fall back on his wrestling who's also supposed to be "out of his prime" athletically

 

[mkess101]

that's a loaded question. you're comparing an average person to the elite in the world. but do i think i could bring my stamina up to an average UFC 185 lbs-ers stamina? of course i do, given the time and proper training

lol cmon man you're slowly turning the conversation about athleticism into who has better genetics. the definition of athleticism is:

the physical qualities that are characteristic of athletes, such as strength, fitness, and agility.

JJ couldn't find the field on his HS football team until his senior year because he was too slow for a skill position and too weak to play in the trenches. and this you're comparing to an olympic level athlete who has seamlessly transitioned into MMA and has largely had success without having to fall back on his wrestling

My point is more that guys have different cardio ceilings, even with similar body types within the sport. I'm not trying to change the conversation, my point is that when someone asks me about who the better athlete is between two people, it's not an easy thing to quantify. Just saying "strength, fitness, agility" is great, but to me it's so much more subjective than that.

Jones has shown arguably more functional strength than anyone I've ever seen in MMA. He tosses guys around easily. He couldn't play HS football but he's physically overwhelmed Olympic athletes. His fitness is obviously better than Yoel's too.

I think we sometimes try to artificially remove subjectivity from certain discussions to try to better come to conclusions, but sometimes that level of subjectivity is there for a reason. Sports are specified, and trying to figure out who the better "athlete" is between different guys isn't always a cut and dried thing.

Lebron James or Usain Bolt, who's the better "athlete"?
Michael Phelps or Floyd Mayweather Jr, who was the better "athlete" in their prime?
Julio Jones or Lionel Messi?
Sidney Crosby or prime Evander Holyfield?

There are just so many components and variables involved. I think within the same sport it becomes easier sure, but it's not always obvious. Yoel is obviously MUCH bigger and stronger than Mighty Mouse. But Mighty Mouse has way better cardio, is WAY faster, and has shown better agility too from what I've seen. Who's the better "athlete"? IDK honestly. Depends on how much you weigh certain traits.

 

[OutRun]

big on Colby at dog odds, thinking of dropping 5u on him

 

[Gugabe]

big on Colby at dog odds, thinking of dropping 5u on him

Not seeing Colby here, tbh. RDA is not going to gas (I still remember when he discovered he was the best cardio'd athlete at LW 6 fights into his UFC career, at the age of 30) and I think Colby's going to give him a massive invitation to tee off on him. Colby's entire game plan here has to be 3 rounds of top control, whilst a lot more can work for RDA.

 

[BigDramaShow26]

I kinda sorta think Holm's odds are really good here but betting her at juiced odds seems so square. Curious to think what others think. Megan Anderson doesn't impress me at allll

I'm going to take the juice. I'm just waiting before it gets too high. Also taking her by KO once the prop comes out. Holm is going to piece Anderson up.

I might parlay her with Claudia to sweeten the odds, but even Claudia is -400. The books have really got the lines right for this card.

 

[MacPherson911]

kinda tempted by Meg Anderson at +200 but how the hell can we bet her with confidence after this extended absence due to vague and unspecific "personal issues?" Did she get sick? arrested? unplanned pregnancy? what? it's impossible to get a good read on where she is physically and mentally at this point.

 

[iGnP]

My point is more that guys have different cardio ceilings, even with similar body types within the sport. I'm not trying to change the conversation, my point is that when someone asks me about who the better athlete is between two people, it's not an easy thing to quantify. Just saying "strength, fitness, agility" is great, but to me it's so much more subjective than that.

Jones has shown arguably more functional strength than anyone I've ever seen in MMA. He tosses guys around easily. He couldn't play HS football but he's physically overwhelmed Olympic athletes. His fitness is obviously better than Yoel's too.

I think we sometimes try to artificially remove subjectivity from certain discussions to try to better come to conclusions, but sometimes that level of subjectivity is there for a reason. Sports are specified, and trying to figure out who the better "athlete" is between different guys isn't always a cut and dried thing.

Lebron James or Usain Bolt, who's the better "athlete"?
Michael Phelps or Floyd Mayweather Jr, who was the better "athlete" in their prime?
Julio Jones or Lionel Messi?
Sidney Crosby or prime Evander Holyfield?

There are just so many components and variables involved. I think within the same sport it becomes easier sure, but it's not always obvious. Yoel is obviously MUCH bigger and stronger than Mighty Mouse. But Mighty Mouse has way better cardio, is WAY faster, and has shown better agility too from what I've seen. Who's the better "athlete"? IDK honestly. Depends on how much you weigh certain traits.

Whomever would perform better in an NFL combine type test is the better athlete.

 

[iGnP]

kinda tempted by Meg Anderson at +200 but how the hell can we bet her with confidence after this extended absence due to vague and unspecific "personal issues?" Did she get sick? arrested? unplanned pregnancy? what? it's impossible to get a good read on where she is physically and mentally at this point.

As a fade of Holm? Megan hasn’t looked good in the tape I’ve watched of her

 

[Roads55]

kinda tempted by Meg Anderson at +200 but how the hell can we bet her with confidence after this extended absence due to vague and unspecific "personal issues?" Did she get sick? arrested? unplanned pregnancy? what? it's impossible to get a good read on where she is physically and mentally at this point.

I heard it was visa issues, maybe she overstayed her visa or something like that? can't quite remember but im not totally convinced this is the reason. details from her were very scarce from what i've seen (could of changed recently however). she seems pretty committed to posting social media pics of her ass and stomach posting 2 second gifs of herself making weird faces.

she was not exactly a world beater before this giant lay off either having faced low ranked competition and even losing to cindy ******* dandois... holly has to be my play at 1.5ish with all her advantages, although her age and how she may react from the cyborg fight worry me slightly.

 

[Roads55]

so far before research I like smith > rashad ML , holly ML, and whittaker ML (at anything around 1.6 or better). looking for smith KO odds when released too.

 

[MacPherson911]

she seems pretty committed to posting social media pics of her ass

I believe we should be supportive of this

 

[piglord]

Not seeing Colby here, tbh. RDA is not going to gas (I still remember when he discovered he was the best cardio'd athlete at LW 6 fights into his UFC career, at the age of 30) and I think Colby's going to give him a massive invitation to tee off on him. Colby's entire game plan here has to be 3 rounds of top control, whilst a lot more can work for RDA.

it doesn't just have to be top control, clinch and wall will be fine as well. colby is fine anywhere except for at range but when has anyone, especially a much smaller fighter, been able to maintain distance from him?

 

[mkess101]

Whomever would perform better in an NFL combine type test is the better athlete.

Fair enough. That's your definition. Not saying you're wrong, but I think you'd get a lot of people arguing that's just one definition out of many.

 

[t6p]

Not seeing Colby here, tbh. RDA is not going to gas (I still remember when he discovered he was the best cardio'd athlete at LW 6 fights into his UFC career, at the age of 30) and I think Colby's going to give him a massive invitation to tee off on him. Colby's entire game plan here has to be 3 rounds of top control, whilst a lot more can work for RDA.

I wouldn't say he gassed, but RDA definitely slowed down against Saffiedine in a grinding type of fight that he's very likely to get here. The last time we saw someone use a wrestling heavy approach against RDA was the Khabib fight and we know how that went.

Covington has excellent cardio. The only time we've seen him slow at all was round 3 against Maia and that was a fight where he attempted well over 300 standing strikes over 3 rounds. He pushes an excellent pace and doesn't seem to tire in grappling heavy fights. Look what he was able to do to Kim, who's much bigger than RDA. You can make an argument that outside of the Alves fight, Covington hasn't lost a round in the UFC.

Personally, I cap Covington in the -175 to -200 range here. I've gotten 5u down on him at +130 average price.

 

[Gugabe]

I wouldn't say he gassed, but RDA definitely slowed down against Saffiedine in a grinding type of fight that he's very likely to get here. The last time we saw someone use a wrestling heavy approach against RDA was the Khabib fight and we know how that went.

Covington has excellent cardio. The only time we've seen him slow at all was round 3 against Maia and that was a fight where he attempted well over 300 standing strikes over 3 rounds. He pushes an excellent pace and doesn't seem to tire in grappling heavy fights. Look what he was able to do to Kim, who's much bigger than RDA. You can make an argument that outside of the Alves fight, Covington hasn't lost a round in the UFC.

Personally, I cap Covington in the -175 to -200 range here. I've gotten 5u down on him at +130 average price.

Khabib's probably another level of wrestler over Colby. I don't think that Colby's terrible on his feet or anything, but top control is prettymuch the only position I see him beating RDA in. RDA's a bit undersized here, but we just saw him maintain a crazy pace against Lawler for 25 mins and I don't think anybody can realistically say that Colby's a better striker or BJJ-er than RDA. I think it's going to be an issue where Colby tries to push pace on a guy that's got equivalent (Deeper from what we've seen, but it's not like Colby's gassed out in the past) cardio, better striking, better BJJ and one of the best histories of improvement and adaptation in the sport.

Saffedine was RDA's first fight in a new weight class. I think the Lawler fight showcased that he could stay fit at WW for 25 mins whilst setting an insane pace.

I don't think Colby's terrible by any means, I just think that trying to outpace RDA's something that's only worked for Tony Ferguson in Mexico City and I'd rather not rely on it. I think RDA's going to be the one doing more damage in this fight, even if Colby might end up with a control edge.