1. The official Sherdog Store is back! Check it out! » Discuss it here! »

Ude Garami or Kimura/Americana is not a shoulder lock

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Rod1, Jul 22, 2010.

  1. Rod1 Titanium Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    48,491
    Likes Received:
    797
    Location:
    Sonora, Mexico.
    I have been dabbling in this forum for some times occasionally, but never really felt like making an account to post, but i saw in many older topics that they referred to the kimura as a shoulder lock or that shoulder flexibility had anything to do with it.

    Specially one which criticized judo rules for hypocresy because they allowed the kimura.

    Ok, if you felt that kimura is a shoulder lock or that you can't pull against flexible types, lets drill this.

    lay on the ground face up, and extend your arm in a keylock position, with any extension whatsoever, if you want your arm to make 45 degree, 60 degree or 30 degree it doesn't matters (this is the angle made by the arm and the forearm).

    Now have the elbow point and your side of the body do a 90 degrees angle (this angle is measured at the armpit, is the angle made by your arm and the side of the body), now lift your elbow join without lifting your wrist or your shoulder from the ground. Done? you will see that you can lift the elbow joint quite a bit and you will start feeling some pressure on the shoulder as you try more and more.

    Now do the same at 45 degrees you will now be able to lift it less before you feel pressure at the elbow and your shoulder should hurt less.

    Now do an angle of less than 10 degrees, now you can barely lift the elbow, and you feel pressure immediatly, your shoulder is unaffected, that's where the udegarami should be applied.


    Now why does this happens?

    Simple, the elbow doesn't has any lateral mobility, it only bends in one way, so the target of the lock is to bend the elbow sideways, however because of the nature of the technique the shoulder can move alongside the force that its pressuring the elbow and relieve the pressure of the elbow. Imagine the arm of tori (attacker) as the axis of the bending force, when that axis is parallel to the rotation of the shoulder, then the shoulder can turn with the force and save the elbow from pressure, eventually the shoulder will also find its limits and since the shoulder is weaker it will crack before the elbow.

    However then the axis of the bending force is perpendicular to the rotation of the shoulder, then the shoulder can't roll alongside the elbow and relieve pressure on it, which means that the elbow will snap instantly.

    Here is one video of Fedor Emelianenko showing this

    YouTube - Fedor Emelianenko - Optimal kimura ranges (MMA & UFC DVD)

    In this video Fedor makes the force more perpendicular by also extending the arm, but its not necesary, you can do an ude garami with uke's arm flexed, however the armpit angle will need to be closer, at the video the armpit angle is almost 90 degrees and the force is perpendicular.

    Sadly Judo rules has deviated too much from newaza and the likes of Kashiwazaki are less and less with time, but there are still those alive from the times where newaza was more relevant and they are still teaching, Judo newaza is also scientific and logical, you just need to find a good teacher.
     
  2. Red Harvest Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    267
    Likes Received:
    0
    They hurt my shoulders.
     
  3. InfiniteWit Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2009
    Messages:
    396
    Likes Received:
    0
    Uke's forearm, is used as a key (therefore a keylock) to apply pressure at the shoulder. It twists the shoulder joint past its natural range of motion. Eventually it'll break the elbow but only in the same way you can break a key off in a lock.
     
  4. Jagcorps_esq Red Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    9,355
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    It can break arms, harm the elbow and destroy the shoulder.

    So, you are right only to the extent that you mean that it is not solely a shoulder lock.

    To the extent that you mean that it does not attack the shoulder, you are deflicted.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2010
  5. RacerX Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2006
    Messages:
    463
    Likes Received:
    0
    As you mentioned, there can be pressure applied to the shoulder, but this is not considered the principal joint attacked. I don't know the statistics on injuries from this lock, but Helio and Renzo both had their elbows dislocated.
     
  6. KBE6EKCTAH_CCP Vive le Québec libre ! Yellow Card

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    17,321
    Likes Received:
    3,887
    To call the dude retarded is uncalled for.

    My guess is that the dude was simply never in an americana to know that if you don't tap your shoulder explodes.
     
  7. zlevflnuggets Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2009
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    0
    The kimura is a shoulder lock that has the potenital to indeed hurt the elbow. I don't understand why you felt the need to type all that up it was completly pointless.
     
  8. HardEight Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    700
    Likes Received:
    0
    The elbow is just used as leverage to dislocate the shoulder. One of them has to give, but it is a shoulder lock.
     
  9. xMikeyX Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,466
    Likes Received:
    0
    My attention span isn't what it used to be- post a vid or something. I'm not reading that boring mass of words.

    "Now why does this happens?"

    Metalocalypse?
     
  10. Jagcorps_esq Red Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    9,355
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    :icon_cry2

    I'm so sorry!!!!!

    Oh my god....oh...oh..uggh.

    Wow. I feel a lot better. Nothing like a good cry.

    :rolleyes:

    He bothered to post a treatise on something and is completely wrong about it, so spare me. But if you prefer....deflicted.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2010
  11. Shemhazai Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2007
    Messages:
    6,153
    Likes Received:
    0
    Isn't there a rule in judo saying that bent armlocks should only be performed to attack the elbow, not the shoulder?
     
  12. BSFT Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,282
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    yes it is.
     
  13. SuperSuperRambo Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Messages:
    32,493
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    NY
    In my experience it's both. The shoulder is definitely where you feel the pain primarily, but I've had my elbow popped from an Americana.
     
  14. bjjaz Got the Rock...Time to Roll

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    18,695
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Teh Mat
    Definetly both...
     
  15. dza76wutang Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2008
    Messages:
    6,589
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Providence, Rhode Island
    I always felt them in the shoulder, but I did crack a guy's elbow with one before so I'm leaning towards both.
     
  16. BSFT Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,282
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    i think that the "americana" is more shoulder than anything. you are isolating that joint and using the elbow for leverage to torque the shoulder to get the tap. the kimura from side control, is also more geared to pressure the shoulder as well, but when applied Sakuraba/Renzo style is much more an elbow attack than a shoulder attack.
     
  17. Red Harvest Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    267
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have actually never had my elbow feel any pain when in a kimura or an americana. My shoulder is a completely different story.

    Why the personal attacks on the guy? Seems uncalled for. Have I not been here long enough to know what really goes on?
     
  18. Jdonw Green Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2007
    Messages:
    960
    Likes Received:
    0
    I even did your test, and it affected my shoulder. It is a shoulder lock plain and simple, it can affect the elbow, but it targets the shoulder. The forearm is a lever used for the rotation of the shoulder. Flexibility doesn't have so much to do with not being able to get the lock as not being able to use the proper mechanics does.
     
  19. Mike Wilson Jr. Amateur Fighter

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    6,378
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Long Beach, CA
    Youre such a dick, bro.


















    :D I dont care what Gerbil thinks, its funny to me.
     
  20. hughes fan Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    13,083
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    England
    If you mean it doesn't affect the shoulder then you're wrong but if you mean that it is primarily not a shoulder lock then I see where you're coming from.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.