Ude Garami or Kimura/Americana is not a shoulder lock

[Zankou]

Rod1, the reason it's comical is because any reasonable discussion of the bent arm lock, from somebody who isn't trying to make some bizarre semantic point, will point out that the lock can damage the shoulder due to the pressure it puts on it:

Ude garami

"Ude garami, or bent arm lock, can be done many ways and from different positions in Kodokan Judo. The opponent's arm can be bent upwards towards the head or down towards the legs. It often uses considerable twisting action that can injure the shoulder as well as the primary target of the elbow joint."

The fact that the elbow is ideally targeted, while technically interesting, doesn't change the fact which everybody knows and is blindingly obvious: that bent armlocks damage the shoulder all the time, in judo and otherwise. But by all means, try to define that obvious fact away with pages of dense text -- then you'll be a true judoka.

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

I hate to be the second monkey on your back ( ) but is that even a word?

No, it's not a word.

Or rather, it is not an English word. It is a family word.

For better or worse, my family used to say 'retarded' a lot. This is retarded and that is retarded....etc.

A new family member joined us, by marriage, and she detested the word because she worked with special needs children. We have to change something, and since we couldn't get rid of her, we had to add a new family word to replace retarded.

Thus, deflicted was born.

 

[Rod1]

Seriously though... Does this need to continue? Almost everyone here has had an elbow and/or shoulder hurt the move. It works. It'll blow your elbow out of place. It'll tear your rotator cuff. That's all I need to know.

I never said that the Ude Garami can't hurt the shoulder, i merely pointed out that a correct ude garami will target the elbowm, not the shoulder. I could post videos of people getting their forearm broken as a result of an juji gatame (normal armbar), does that means that the juji gatame is a forearm lock? no.

Also the second video shows the weakness of the shoulder lock, you have to bend over badly in order to apply proper pressure in the shoulder with a shoulder lock ude garami, the elbow lock requires minimum torque and can be done while hugging the ground.

Rod1, the reason it's comical is because any reasonable discussion of the bent arm lock, from somebody who isn't trying to make some bizarre semantic point, will point out that the lock can damage the shoulder due to the pressure it puts on it

Again, what "bizarre" semantic point have i made? i mean this is like arguing against a creationist,

"Radiometric dating shows that the earth is millions of years old"

"LOL, youa re arguing semantics, everyone knows God created the earth 6 thousands years ago".

The fact that the elbow is ideally targeted, while technically interesting, doesn't change the fact which everybody knows and is blindingly obvious: that bent armlocks damage the shoulder all the time, in judo and otherwise. But by all means, try to define that obvious fact away with pages of dense text -- then you'll be a true judoka.

Because you have the statistics to make such a claim? Do you know how many peopla attempt elbow locks as opposed ot shoulder?

 

[slothofdoom]

who is this mystical person who decides if a technique is "correct" or not? as far as I'm concerned if i grab his arm and break it in exactly the way i was trying to, who the hell are you to tell me its wrong?

 

[Drew Foster]

who is this mystical person who decides if a technique is "correct" or not? as far as I'm concerned if i grab his arm and break it in exactly the way i was trying to, who the hell are you to tell me its wrong?

And boom goes the dynamite!

 

[Rod1]

who is this mystical person who decides if a technique is "correct" or not? as far as I'm concerned if i grab his arm and break it in exactly the way i was trying to, who the hell are you to tell me its wrong?

"minimum effort, maximum efficiency" the principle of judo , sounds mystical but this is also the principle of modern engineering.

The kimura to the elbow needs less torque and strength, i thought BJJ claimed to be superb technical and that it was technique over strength.

 

[Drew Foster]

"minimum effort, maximum efficiency" the principle of judo , sounds mystical but this is also the principle of modern engineering.

The kimura to the elbow needs less torque and strength, i thought BJJ claimed to be superb technical and that it was technique over strength.

Now there's another Judo vs. BJJ thread...

 

[bjjmedic]

Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But if you want to go that way Kyuzo Mifune labels it as an elbow lock. If you are friends with Pedro Sauer by all means tell him what i said, if im wrong he will have a technical explanation.
".

Actually that is not an Ad hominem attack. Calling you stupid is an Ad hominem attack. Get your logical fallacies right.

Who cares if it is an elbow or shoulder. Does it really matter? You get the tap either way.

The subtle changes in angle that change it from shoulder to elbow are very hard to predict in competition. In some people it will pop a shoulder other it will hurt the elbow. Big whoop.

 

[Rod1]

Actually that is not an Ad hominem attack. Calling you stupid is an Ad hominem attack. Get your logical fallacies right.

How is an insult a logical fallacy? an insult by itself is an insult

Ad hominem calling me stupid its not an Ad hominem its an insult, Ad hominem tries to discredit/validating an argument through the characteristics of a man.

An insult used along with a valid argument is not an ad hominem, neither is an insult that doesn't undermines the argument per se.

Again, i provided a link, read it.

Who cares if it is an elbow or shoulder. Does it really matter? You get the tap either way.

Or you get swept over.

The subtle changes in angle that change it from shoulder to elbow are very hard to predict in competition. In some people it will pop a shoulder other it will hurt the elbow. Big whoop

As with all techniques of all competitive sports, perfect technique its impossible in the face of a resisting opponent, this doesn't means that we should train with poor technique, as per my judo coach "If you train at 100% you will do 50% in competition, if you train at 50% you will do nothing", when stressing the importance of keeping good technique when training.

 

[SteelHammer]

I didn't want to read 5 pages of this but the kimura is definitely a shoulder lock. But, it can break other bones as well. Didn't helio's arm break in at least 2 places against Masahiro Kimura?

 

[boboplata***]

when i was in my noob stages, i set up my arm triangle or armbar by americana from side mount. while i was cranking the americana, i was waiting for my partner to throw out his other arm to defend since he can't straighten it anymore. that's when his elbow started popping. i felt shitty after that & he won't talk to me after practice. & i was like..."it wasn't supposed to happen!? it's a shoulder lock..? right? he should've tapped, right?"

ahhhh...the good old days.

 

[bjjmedic]

How is an insult a logical fallacy? an insult by itself is an insult

Ad hominem calling me stupid its not an Ad hominem its an insult, Ad hominem tries to discredit/validating an argument through the characteristics of a man.

An insult used along with a valid argument is not an ad hominem, neither is an insult that doesn't undermines the argument per se.

Again, i provided a link, read it.



Or you get swept over.



As with all techniques of all competitive sports, perfect technique its impossible in the face of a resisting opponent, this doesn't means that we should train with poor technique, as per my judo coach "If you train at 100% you will do 50% in competition, if you train at 50% you will do nothing", when stressing the importance of keeping good technique when training.

It's an Ad hominem attack by saying you are stupid hence your arguments are stupid.
I am fairly competent in my understanding of logical fallacies and how to argue.

All I know when I ask my instructor, who is three stripe BB in Judo and a two strip BB in BJJ than a Kimura attacks the shoulder.

Why do you have you shorts in a knot over such a little thing as to whether it hurts the shoulder or the elbow?

 

[anaconda]

ive popped 3 elbows and 2 shoulders on people not tapping in time.

basically the rule of thumb is to turn the hand out (away from his body) for the elbow, and keep it flat or slightly faced in for the shoulder.

if the person has a particular weakness in either the elbow or the shoulder it may go regardless.

When it happens that frequently, its your fault - not their fault for "not tapping in time."

How bout showing some respect for your training partners.

 

[Rod1]

It's an Ad hominem attack by saying you are stupid hence your arguments are stupid. I am fairly competent in my understanding of logical fallacies and how to argue.

Stupid is too general, if you had said "Who are you and what are your grappling credentials" that's and ad hominem.

All I know when I ask my instructor, who is three stripe BB in Judo and a two strip BB in BJJ than a Kimura attacks the shoulder.

This is an Ad Hominem, trying to win an argument by using the credentials of a man.

Again, two can play that game Kyuzo Mifune calls it an elbow lock. Also wth is 3 stripe BB in judo? is he a sandan? if so, under what federation?

Why do you have you shorts in a knot over such a little thing as to whether it hurts the shoulder or the elbow?

I don't have a knot over it, most of you made it a knot when you got mad for the idea that you may possibly be wrong.

 

[Drew Foster]

Why the fuck are you guys arguing over what an ad hominem is? Jesus this thread has turned into crazy town.

 

[JoshGrrrr]

Hmmm... tell that to the doctor who said I had a torn labrum in my shoulder after a 340lb monster Americana'd me at NAGA.

These ALWAYS hurt my shoulder and have NEVER hurt my elbow.

 

[Kovyy]

For you guys who have injured your elbows from kimuras or americanas what have you done to get them to heal properly? The Dr.'s havent given me much help or reccomendation on what to do. I have been back to training since and now when a shoulder lock is put on i feel tension in my elbow where I have never felt it before

 

[redaxe]

Rod1 = ninja judo troll

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

You're all a bunch of morons for arguing about this (this is an ad hominem attack). A bent armlock hurts the shoulder first. I've had my elbow popped from an Americana, and I've seen the shoulder torn from both. Whether the elbow or shoulder goes first is a toss up. An irrelevant toss up. The point is to disable the appendage and either will do the trick. There is no "correct" way to apply it that attacks solely one joint and not the other, and if you're arguing that this is some way relevant to bjj vs. judo (like one does it the right way and one does it the wrong way) then you need to get a life. In judo it's technically legal if it attacks the elbow, but in practice I've never seen a bent armlock finished in a modern judo match. So yes it's a judo technique (no shit, it was Kimura's favorite), but it's effectively illegal in modern competition, even if it's technically not illegal.

This forum annoys me more by the day.

 

[Drew Foster]

This forum annoys me more by the day.

Same here. I am contemplating leaving.

As far as whether a joint attacks the shoulder or elbow in Judo, the refs could give a shit as long as the elbow is "isolated." If you lock up a tight Keylock or Kimura the elbow is considered isolated, and you won't be called for it, no matter what pops.