Social Turns out Imane Khelif Really Was a Man

This whole story had nothing to do with trans people competing unfairly in women's division.

I'm a 110% opposed to trans people competing against biological women, ban this shit.

But this chick is not a trans by any means. She has female genitalia and was probably unaware that she had an extremely rare intersex condition until adulthood.

And I'm not even saying it's unfair to ban her, it might be fair, but it's still not her fault.

The witch hunt is ridiculous because she doesn't embody anything related to trans identity and her case is a way more complex topic than that.
 
Why wasn't (s)he immediately killed in his/her home country when this news broke? Hell, why not years before that? This kind of thing is not tolerated in that country or religion.
 
Hog-train said:
I never said that. But you did say he has female reproductive organs.



Completely irrelevant. The sex tests all say male karyotype.



Again - SOURCE? PROOF?

Did any medical tests show this? Did Khelif say this? No he didn't.

So you're just full of shit. As usual.





Yes.



No that is not the rules. World Boxing (based in the UK) recently took over for the Russian led IBA. The rules say every person must undergo mandatory sex testing.

Has nothing to do with testosterone levels. They never stated if you have male chromosomes but have low teste, you can compete with the girls.

They said you have be be born female.

"To be eligible for the women’s category, a competitor must be female at birth. To ensure this policy is implemented, World Boxing will introduce mandatory sex testing to determine the eligibility of female and male athletes that want to take part in its competitions."





There's no confirmation or admission by Khelif's camp that he's intersex at all. It's all bullshit speculation.

These are the KNOWN facts:

1. Sex testing by two independent labs shows Khelif had male chromosomes and Imane got disqualified from World Championships about a year or two before the Olympics.

2. Khelif has always claimed he/she is a biological female - aka ciswoman.

3. If Khelif is intersex after all, it has to be the 5-ard condition Castor Semenya had. People with 5-ard have (undescended) testicles producing testosterone and an unusually small penis.

4. The other intersex conditions like Swyers and CAIS have low testosterone and not possible, because the IBA and even Khelif says they had high testosterone.
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So, a man doesn't necessarily have a penis?

Good to know.
 
Ares Black said:
You sound triggered.

And are you still claiming that Imane Khelif is actually a man?
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He is. Science has proven so.

Do you not believe in science or only when science reaffirms your opinion and world view?
 
Hog-train said:
No that is not the rules. World Boxing (based in the UK) recently took over for the Russian led IBA. The rules say every person must undergo mandatory sex testing.

Has nothing to do with testosterone levels. They never stated if you have male chromosomes but have low teste, you can compete with the girls.
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The IOC has already established a precedent in other sports that intersex females with androgenizing intersex conditions ARE allowed to compete as long as they maintain testosterone levels that are within the natural female range though. For Track and Field, this is an old topic.

It’s debatable how “born female” is going to be interpreted in this case. Khelif was, undeniably, not “born male”. Khelif was born intersex, and is identified on her birth certificate as a female.

I believe the spirit of the rule is designed to disqualify individuals that were born with XY chromosomes and not possessing any disorders of sexual development conditions, that now identify as female. So, “trans women”, born male then transitioned to female. You have to agree that there is a distinction between the two. Banning intersex individuals that have no control over their condition is more discriminatory than banning trans individuals.

Obviously boxing being a combat sport, they may come to a different ruling, as potential competitive advantages have higher stakes and pose a greater risk to the opponent than track and field.
 
Hog-train said:
People with 5-ard have a penis.

Your turn. Proof Khelif has female reproductive organs? That's what you said.
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Not always, it results in a spectrum of external genitalia.

Most are born with female external genitalia, with a separate clitoris and urethra, and no external testicles. In many cases at puberty the clitoris will enlarge beyond what a normal female would have (but not all cases), but the lack of urethral opening makes it hard to call a penis.

Some are born with ambiguous genitalia and hypospasdias, so, a small penis/large clitoris, with the urethra on the underside of the organ, but no external testicles. Again, at puberty the sex organ will typically enlarge, and the presence of a urethral opening on the organ could qualify it as a penis.

You just can’t really paint intersex conditions with a broad brush. The leftist slogan of “gender is a spectrum” is generally bullshit the way they characterize it.. until it comes to intersex conditions, where there is truly a gradient of presentation even among individuals with the same disorder.
 
GreatSaintGuillotine said:
So, if I'm understanding correctly, they have an unexpressed male SRY gene making them intersex. Breasts, female genitalia, but an unexpressed gene that effects hormone levels bone density, and muscular development.

Yeah thats rough. All your life you're just a pretty strong chick but turns out you had an advantage in your sport you weren't aware of until adulthood. Not sure what this will ultimately mean for you career as an athlete going forward. This is kinda the worst spot to be in. You have an advantage over females but you're not a male and at a disadvantage. Fucked situation
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Yeah it’s just shitty. If that is the case then unfortunately she can’t compete. Fairness discussion aside, It’s just not safe for the other athletes.
 
Blayt7hh said:
Yeah it’s just shitty. If that is the case then unfortunately she can’t compete. Fairness discussion aside, It’s just not safe for the other athletes.
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Ya, it’s pretty shitty, and most people on either side of the argument see little room for nuance, and want to lump it into the trans debate.

I’m an opponent of letting “trans women” compete in women’s sports, but I have sympathy for these intersex cases. If they were born in a highly developed western country, they would likely have been tested in utero for all of these conditions, and would have been monitored from birth by endocrinologists. Unfortunately, most of the cases that we see are individuals that reach the Olympic level, born in underdeveloped African nations that don’t have the same access to medical technology. They are born, the doctor and family see a vagina, they call them a girl, and that’s what they are their entire lives until they reach the pinnacle for sport and are tested. It’s not the same as a boy who decides they want to be a girl.

Fairness is also debatable. For example.. if one of these conditions WAS identified at birth, and the individual was started on testosterone suppressing medication immediately upon reaching the age of puberty, then they presumably will never have been exposed to male levels of testosterone that will provide a competitive advantage. However, if that doesn’t happen, and they experience years of elevated testosterone, this will undoubtedly produce increased muscle tone, bone density, and cardiovascular strength relative to other females, which won’t be fully reversible even if they begin testosterone suppression as an adult.

That’s what makes it complicated and controversial. The general public is not privy to these people’s full medical history.
 
MDoza said:
If they were born in a highly developed western country, they would likely have been tested in utero for all of these conditions, and would have been monitored from birth by endocrinologists. Unfortunately, most of the cases that we see are individuals that reach the Olympic level, born in underdeveloped African nations that don’t have the same access to medical technology. They are born, the doctor and family see a vagina, they call them a girl, and that’s what they are their entire lives until they reach the pinnacle for sport and are tested. It’s not the same as a boy who decides they want to be a girl.
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Many parts of the United States no longer count as "highly developed western country" per this definition. Access to prenatal care can be extremely limited, and many mothers in the US never get full genetic testing of the degree you're describing. Many don't even get bare bones prenatal care due to a combination of our fucked up for profit health system and a shortage of OBGYNs serving poor communities. It gets even rougher when certain states are threatening to imprison OBGYNs for helping their patients and closing women's health clinics that tried to help underserved areas.
 
shunyata said:
Many parts of the United States no longer count as "highly developed western country" per this definition. Access to prenatal care can be extremely limited, and many mothers in the US never get full genetic testing of the degree you're describing. Many don't even get bare bones prenatal care due to a combination of our fucked up for profit health system and a shortage of OBGYNs serving poor communities. It gets even rougher when certain states are threatening to imprison OBGYNs for helping their patients and closing women's health clinics that tried to help underserved areas.
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You missed probably the biggest reason why many done get “bare bones prenatal care” in poor communities. Personal fucking responsibility. I worked for 3 years at a pregnancy care center in an underserved area in PA. The vast majority of those patients would no show their appointments and not even seek prenatal care until they were very well along in their pregnancy. Lots of them on drugs too and had to be started on Subutex to keep them off heroin. None of those patients payed anything for our services. But yeah it’s the fucked up for profit system preventing them getting care.
 
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Koya said:
This whole story had nothing to do with trans people competing unfairly in women's division.

I'm a 110% opposed to trans people competing against biological women, ban this shit.

But this chick is not a trans by any means. She has female genitalia and was probably unaware that she had an extremely rare intersex condition until adulthood.

And I'm not even saying it's unfair to ban her, it might be fair, but it's still not her fault.

The witch hunt is ridiculous because she doesn't embody anything related to trans identity and her case is a way more complex topic than that.
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The whole "witch hunt" thing is because the situation was tried to be swept under the rug after she tested positive for being intersex multiple times. I think 90% of the hatred would never have existed unless they tried to gaslight people saying she was "pure" female.

Its not her fault, but allowing her to compete against other females would be like sanctioning doping for just one athlete.
 
Ares Black said:
1)No they don't
2)What proof do you have that she does?

Her birth certificate and her entire life as a woman.
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Stop dodging the question. You said Khelif had female reproductive organs. How do you know?

Asked you 3-4 times already and you keep dodging.
 
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