Social Transgender Megathread Vol. 2

[Soggust]

I don't believe any of your lies or any other person on the left claiming to not care about anything unless it "does no harm to others" until you are willing to let me use your t shirt as a napkin to blow my nose in. And I'm sure you'll probably say you wouldn't care because it's the Internet and you don't have to provide receipts for anything

But if you blow your nose in my shirt, you're "doing harm" by getting your germs on my shirt right lol?

Look, I'm not saying I'm perfect or I'm incapable of judging people.

When I meet a Raiders fan, I generally make a sweeping assumption that they fuck their cousin. That might be wrong scientifically (unproven), but I'm human.

All I'm saying is that I have no problem with this person existing and we should go after the ones that are supposedly raping all the women in the bathroom instead of someone just doing their job living their life.

 

[Soggust]

This is such a stupid question. If it doesn't matter, then why do these people want to make it illegal to 'misgender' them? Clearly it does matter. A lot.

I'm asking why it matters to me, not why it matters to them.

We can clearly see why being called Muhammad Ali would be important to him.

But hopefully, you can see why a reasonable person might ask "Why does it matter?" when I go on a tirade about his name being Cassius Clay.

 

[Deleted member 592570]

I'm asking why it matters to me, not why it matters to them.

Because in many countries, it's compelled speech with prison sentences attached.

 

[Soggust]

Because in many countries, it's compelled speech with prison sentences attached.

And religion isn’t lol?

 

[Deleted member 592570]

And religion isn’t lol?

What? No.

 

[Soggust]

What? No.

What happens if you bring a Bible into North Korea?

Or how's life as a Christian in Somalia?

Like, I honestly think I might just be misunderstanding your position because religion has been the basis of persecution for millennia lol.

 

[Hdfi]

I bet $100 this guy is a rapist.

 

[Deleted member 592570]

What happens if you bring a Bible into North Korea?

Or how's life as a Christian in Somalia?

Like, I honestly think I might just be misunderstanding your position because religion has been the basis of persecution for millennia lol.

You said how does it affect you. Do you live in North Korea or Somalia?

Canada and the UK have compelled speech when it comes to normal people interacting with trans people. The American left is pushing for it too.

 

[Soggust]

You said how does it affect you. Do you live in North Korea or Somalia?

Canada and the UK have compelled speech when it comes to normal people interacting with trans people. The American left is pushing for it too.

I'm sorry, I think I'm following now.

My initial reaction is to ask if these countries have similar provisions for religious exemptions?

You said no, but certainly if I beat someone up in the UK for being Jewish, that's a hate crime, right?

And often public services like hospitals are required to provide halal food options, for example, and certainly exemptions to company policy to accommodate religious considerations (praying, clothing, etc).

So there are laws on the books to require religious compliance.

-------

So really the difference with trans people comes down to "should we require people's speech to honor pronouns?" and compelled speech vs compliance.

My reaction feels like it should be the same as calling someone by a different name. It's certainly not illegal to call someone by a different name. And - I don't think it's illegal, even in those countries, to accidentally misgender someone once in good faith.

But if your name is Joe and I call you Sarah every single day I come into work, eventually you're obviously going to have a harassment case against me. And that is what the vast majority of these cases are.

 

[Deleted member 592570]

You said no, but certainly if I beat someone up in the UK for being Jewish, that's a hate crime, right?

What on earth is the connection between compelled speech and beating someone up?

And about the harassment case you mentioned, that would be an HR issue and you might get fired. You wouldn't get prison time.

 

[Soggust]

What on earth is the connection between compelled speech and beating someone up?

Because both of the bills that made gender identity a protected class also included hate speech provisions, of which religion compares, so was just covering everything.

And about the harassment case you mentioned, that would be an HR issue and you might get fired. You wouldn't get prison time.

And you wouldn't in the UK or Canada either.

Spoiler: ChatGPT

While there are no specific criminal sentences solely for misgendering, actions taken against individuals usually involve broader discriminatory or harassing behavior. Legal and disciplinary measures focus on ensuring respect and preventing hostile environments, with penalties ranging from fines and compensation to more severe consequences like termination of employment or court injunctions. Cases that have been adjudicated illustrate the application of these principles in both Canada and the UK.

 

[Deleted member 592570]

Because both of the bills that made gender identity a protected class also included hate speech provisions, of which religion compares, so was just covering everything.



And you wouldn't in the UK or Canada either.

Spoiler: ChatGPT

While there are no specific criminal sentences solely for misgendering, actions taken against individuals usually involve broader discriminatory or harassing behavior. Legal and disciplinary measures focus on ensuring respect and preventing hostile environments, with penalties ranging from fines and compensation to more severe consequences like termination of employment or court injunctions. Cases that have been adjudicated illustrate the application of these principles in both Canada and the UK.

If the person refused to comply with the tribunal's order, this would result in a contempt proceeding being sent to the Divisional or Federal Court, Brown says. The court could then potentially send a person to jail “until they purge the contempt,” he says.

https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained#:~:text=Pronoun%20usage,not%20constitute%20a%20criminal%20act.

 

[Soggust]

https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained#:~:text=Pronoun%20usage,not%20constitute%20a%20criminal%20act.

My brother this seems like evidence for me lol

It starts with:

In the Criminal Code, which does not reference pronouns, Cossman says misusing pronouns alone would not constitute a criminal act.

“The misuse of gender pronouns, without more, cannot rise to the level of a crime,” she says. “It cannot rise to the level of advocating genocide, inciting hatred, hate speech or hate crimes … (it) simply cannot meet the threshold.”

And the part you are referencing isn't referring to being send to jail for refusing to use pronouns, it's referring to going to jail for refusing to pay the fines or non-monetary remedy that the court orders if you are convicted of harassment or discrimination lol.

It is possible, Brown says, through a process that would start with a complaint and progress to a proceeding before a human rights tribunal. If the tribunal rules that harassment or discrimination took place, there would typically be an order for monetary and non-monetary remedies. A non-monetary remedy may include sensitivity training, issuing an apology, or even a publication ban, he says.

If the person refused to comply with the tribunal's order, this would result in a contempt proceeding being sent to the Divisional or Federal Court, Brown says. The court could then potentially send a person to jail “until they purge the contempt,” he says.

 

[Deleted member 592570]

My brother this seems like evidence for me lol

It starts with:



And the part you are referencing isn't referring to being send to jail for refusing to use pronouns, it's referring to going to jail for refusing to pay the fines or non-monetary remedy that the court orders if you are convicted of harassment or discrimination lol.

Jail for contempt for refusing to use pronouns is jail for refusing to use pronouns. How do tou purge the contempt? You give in.

 

[Soggust]

Jail for contempt for refusing to use pronouns is jail for refusing to use pronouns. How do tou purge the contempt? You give in.

Jail for contempt for harassment.

Again, let's use names instead of pronouns. If you are outside of my house every day calling me "Sarah" and I call the cops and they arrest you and you go to court and they determine you are guilty of harassing me and you say "fuck that shit, I'm not paying a fine or apologizing" - you aren't going to jail because you because calling someone the wrong name is illegal lol.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

 

[Deleted member 592570]

Jail for contempt for harassment.

Again, let's use names instead of pronouns. If you are outside of my house every day calling me "Sarah" and I call the cops and they arrest you and you go to court and they determine you are guilty of harassing me and you say "fuck that shit, I'm not paying a fine or apologizing" - you aren't going to jail because you because calling someone the wrong name is illegal lol.

Right, but the pronoun thing actually happens. Your made up hypothetical doesn't.

And let's take it back to your original argument 'why do you care?'

Well, why do YOU care? You care enough to go back and forth on this all night.

You aren't being honest here. You DO care. You care ALOT.

You agree with compelled speech legislation. This isn't a case of 'who cares?' You actually support this legislation and are being dishonest about it.

 

[DragRacer]

Simple.
A person can change their name to whatever they want.

Suggesting a person can change genders is bullshit.

So you referring to what is clearly a mentally ill old man as “she” means either you’re also mentally ill, or you’re full of shit.

I'm asking why it matters to me, not why it matters to them.

We can clearly see why being called Muhammad Ali would be important to him.

But hopefully, you can see why a reasonable person might ask "Why does it matter?" when I go on a tirade about his name being Cassius Clay.

 

[Soggust]

Right, but the pronoun thing actually happens. Your made up hypothetical doesn't.

But it doesn't. At least I haven't been able to find a case of it.

And let's take it back to your original argument 'why do you care?

Well, why do YOU care? You care enough to go back and forth on this all night.

You aren't being honest here. You DO care. You care ALOT.

You agree with compelled speech legislation. This isn't a case of 'who cares?' You actually support this legislation and are being dishonest about it.

Meh, I just like debate lol.

I especially like this debate, because the anti-LGBT positions are so foreign to me. Like, forget the morality of it, it just feels like an intellectually bad take in my mind, no offense. So I like hearing opposing sides /shrug.

As far as "this legislation", I'm not exactly sure if you are referring to the UK bill, the Canada bill, the hypothetical US bill, or some broad combination of the 3, but like all policies I would have to see the bill lol.

But not to dodge anything I will say clearly - I think we should treat all LGBT policies the same as religion and I try to be as consistent with that position as possible, because they seem like super fair comparisons.

That even means things like not displaying a pride flag in government buildings imo.

 

[Soggust]

Simple.
A person can change their name to whatever they want.

Suggesting a person can change genders is bullshit.

I mean...[hits blunt]...why can't they?

Someone can change their hair color, eye color, get height implants, knee reductions, weight reduction, fake muscles, fake tits, lip fillers, hair extensions, hair dye, change their race (MJackson), change their name, etc but we are gonna die on a gender hill?

So you referring to what is clearly a mentally ill old man as “she” means either you’re also mentally ill, or you’re full of shit.

I play the powerball bro.

If we are judging mental illness by being delusional, I'm definitely fuckin mentally ill, along with like 95% of America lol.