Tippy toes a no no...a better way to kick

[-guerilla-]

Damage is the first criteria upon muay thai bouts are judged, so the technique development evolved towards that goal. Extending the ankle, the knee and the hips form the cinematic chain in which you can project the most of your body weight into the kick, which you can't do with those joints flexed, simple as that. The support leg is supposed to bear as minimum of your weight as possible and by means of powerful extension is how you achieve that. More weight into the kick equals more damage.

You also overestimate how much posting pictures add to your point. It can impress novices, at most.

So what that you're allegedly involved with kickboxing since eighties? You still don't have a clue

Its actually more about subconscious reaching

The power or pivot argument is already addressed

If it were about power or pivot they would throw their low kicks off their tippy toes which they very rarely do

the heavier European athletes very rarely rise up on their toes and you can see the flat foot kicking style much more frequently out of the larger athletes

Its superior for MMA AND Muay Thai...you shoud try it

Danny Bill did...



Its ok to be angry

100% natural

 

[Lucas Coradini]

LOL
see... when I told you that you don't have a clue I wasn't kidding, because you really don't! There's the obvious diference of trajectory between a low kick and kicks above the waist which completely changes the biomechanics of its execution: When kicking low the goal is to bring your weight downwards to the target. You're such a genius!

Oh, yeah... Dany Bill peculiarities and variations of technique should somehow make me disregard the techniques of hundreds of other champions. Not really

I tried to ignore this bullshit thread, but you're right! It does make me angry that novices can stumble upon your spread of misinformation

I'll also leave a picture of some european kickboxer subconsciously reaching to kick a hip

 

[-guerilla-]

LOL
see... when I told you that you don't have a clue I wasn't kidding, because you really don't! There's the obvious diference of trajectory between a low kick and kicks above the waist which completely changes the biomechanics of its execution: When kicking low the goal is to bring your weight downwards to the target. You're such a genius!

Oh, yeah... Dany Bill peculiarities and variations of technique should somehow make me disregard the techniques of hundreds of other champions. Not really

I tried to ignore this bullshit thread, but you're right! It does make me angry that novices can stumble upon your spread of misinformation

I'll also leave a picture of some european kickboxer subconsciously reaching to kick a hip

Its ok to be angry

You earned the right when you became a tru nak muay

All us fraudulent kickboxers are spreading misinformation and putting the publics knees in mortal danger

(LOL)

ACTUALLY

the "trajectory" of the low kick mid kick and high kick are not that different, its just the angle of the femur as it relates to the hip that makes the kick low mid or high

Your pivot requirement is entirely variable depending on the series of strikes and your opponents movements

Tradirional Muay Thai is the "peculiarity" all other kicking styles teach a flat base foot

Danny Bill
Ramon Dekkers
Ernesto Hoost
Peter Aerst
Maurice smith
Stan Longinidis
Rick Roufus
Rob Kamen

All these legendary Fighters threw their roundkick primarily off of flat base foot... the Tippy Toe is a Thai peculiarity

The Thais are the greatest kickboxing culture on Earth but this one odd factor is a detriment for mixed martial arts competition and kickboxing alike

No more tippy toe!!

Dont try to "REACH" up with hop or a bounce

Sink down your base leg on a flatter foot as you whip thru....its a better way to kick

 

[-guerilla-]

Some thai coaches teach the tippy toe low kick as well



I love Muay Thai but I'm not going to sit here and claim they are consistent in this detail

Flat foot Muay Thai kicking



The fact is the vast majority of Thai kickboxers who are traditionally trained flat foot their low kicks... rise up a tiny bit on their mid kicks and reach for the sky with their high kicks

Its a reaching reaction that worked its way into the traditional method

Quite often you get the most honest and legitimate assessment from people who are not Disciples of a particular martial art but a practitioner of many

this athlete varies from kick to kick

 

[-guerilla-]

OLD school conventional theory





opposed to the best kickers in MMA like cro cop and adesanya

pay particular attention to the fact that Adesanya and cro cop rarely bounce up, tippy toe or completely roll their hip

 

[SandisLL]

European athletes

KB isn't MT rule set at first.

This depends from back ground, not rarerly kickboxers had background in some karate, TKD, MT. Or started initially in sports KB gym.
From this also kicking techniques depends.
Europe does have plenty of kickboxers that before KB did some TMa or MT.

 

[-guerilla-]

KB isn't MT rule set at first.

This depends from back ground, not rarerly kickboxers had background in some karate, TKD, MT. Or started initially in sports KB gym.
From this also kicking techniques depends.
Europe does have plenty of kickboxers that before KB did some TMa or MT.

yes...an excellent point

most European fighters have a hybrid style and thus dont utilize pure MT technique...

I believe this is the sole "flaw" in MT

upward "punt" style kicks [little hip roll] work great

pivoting on a flat base foot works great

its risky to "hop" upward as you throw your kicks [takedown bait]

MT disciples will hate the message but most others will readily understand what im saying

 

[eternaldarkness]

yes...an excellent point

most European fighters have a hybrid style and thus dont utilize pure MT technique...

I believe this is the sole "flaw" in MT

upward "punt" style kicks [little hip roll] work great

pivoting on a flat base foot works great

its risky to "hop" upward as you throw your kicks [takedown bait]

MT disciples will hate the message but most others will readily understand what im saying

never learnt to kick technically but i did a bit of tkd as a kid and naturally rise on or even off my toes when i kick (i have a pretty mean left high kick) i get what your saying about staying planted and it can help to (sink) under punches as you kick from time to time. but physics dictates lower surface area results in higher rotation speeds (it's a cornerstone of dancing) so high toes equals more power.

 

[-guerilla-]

never learnt to kick technically but i did a bit of tkd as a kid and naturally rise on or even off my toes when i kick (i have a pretty mean left high kick) i get what your saying about staying planted and it can help to (sink) under punches as you kick from time to time. but physics dictates lower surface area results in higher rotation speeds (it's a cornerstone of dancing) so high toes equals more power.

I've been pushing this theory for a couple decades so I've studied the friction coefficient Theory quite a bit

the fact is you can shift your weight to the ball of your foot while leaving only a few pounds remaining in contact with the ground thru your heel

you will have 90% of your weight on the ball of your foot however your heel will gently slide across the surface of the floor because it is bearing only a couple pounds of your weight

This kicking style enables you to sink your center of gravity down throughout the whipping motion of the kick instead of popping up and thus your Kik is much less liable for take downs

It probably is a bit more powerful to hop up into your roundkick however you become takedown bait for any decent grappler who has learned this terrible liability of the traditional MT round kick

The hybrid (MT style whip karate style base foot/leg) is a superior type of kick

That's why you see the greatest kickers in MMA history using this type of kick

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_friction

 

[Lucas Coradini]

"Tradirional Muay Thai is the "peculiarity" all other kicking styles teach a flat base foot"

How many of these other kicking arts are tested in a competitive ruleset that is based on power and damage? The best athletes are constantly put against each other. No other combat sport combines these two things as muay thai does.

As I said before, I'm not really interested in your theory about takedown defense, I just think it's irresponsible and pretentious to claim to know how things work just with conjecture.

All of your arguments are flawed. You think posting pictures and picking MMA athletes somehow validates your theory about how technique that is time tested is just "subconscious"

Why Adesanya is one of the best kickers in MMA? I think he have two knockouts by kicks and they were against people nowhere close to high level opponents. I can name dozens of better kickers than Adesanya just in the UFC, but I won't, because that adds nothing to comprehending how and why muay thai kicks are the way they are

 

[-guerilla-]

"Tradirional Muay Thai is the "peculiarity" all other kicking styles teach a flat base foot"

How many of these other kicking arts are tested in a competitive ruleset that is based on power and damage? The best athletes are constantly put against each other. No other combat sport combines these two things as muay thai does.

As I said before, I'm not really interested in your theory about takedown defense, I just think it's irresponsible and pretentious to claim to know how things work just with conjecture.

All of your arguments are flawed. You think posting pictures and picking MMA athletes somehow validates your theory about how technique that is time tested is just "subconscious"

Why Adesanya is one of the best kickers in MMA? I think he have two knockouts by kicks and they were against people nowhere close to high level opponents. I can name dozens of better kickers than Adesanya just in the UFC, but I won't, because that adds nothing to comprehending how and why muay thai kicks are the way they are

you ever hear of this tournament called K1?

Seems like some pretty decent kicking out of Ernesto hoost, peter aerst, jerome lebanner

Ever seen these guys rob kamen and stan Longinidis

Fighting karate is also a very well developed kicking art

Andy Hug
Machida
GSP
Cro cop

The Chute box
Guys use flat foot MT

You probably paid a lot for your traditional mt training

It ok to be "invested" in tradition

However...
Many times people who look at the big picture have the clearest view

 

[Lucas Coradini]

you ever hear of this tournament called K1?

Sure, that tournament that in the most competitive division it was ruled by a thai and then an italian who kicks like a nak muay. Similar stuff happens in tourneys based around that ruleset, like Glory, for example. 70kg and downwards there's always a thai kicking the crap out of everybody, like Sittichai, Kaew or Petpanonrung.

Shit, sometimes they JUST kick and win fights...

Seems like some pretty decent kicking out of Ernesto hoost, peter aerst, jerome lebanner
Ever seen these guys rob kamen and stan Longinidis

Yeah, man... Heavyweights can get away with technique that is less refined. Everybody with a functioning set of eyes can understand that. They're also generally less coordinated. It's just the way it is. If the K1 heavyweights kicked with better technique they would kick harder, no question about it. Doesn't mean they couldn't score a lot of KOs with their kicks. Heavyweights, you know?! Do you get it?

Basic stuff to understand, but it seems that yourself being a heavyweight you have this uncontrollable need to justify your poor technique while downplaying better technique.

Fighting karate is also a very well developed kicking art
Andy Hug
Machida
GSP
Cro cop
The Chute box
Guys use flat foot MT

What you mean by "fighting karate"? Are you talking about knockdown rules? Or those relatively new full contact karate tournaments fought in some kind of pit?

If the former:


If the latter: I don't have a link, but if it is what I think it is it's just the sloppiest shit I ever saw in my life. That's ok, though. As I also said, it's relatively new, maybe they'll improve with time.

As of now Muay Thai is the most developed full contact sport which involves kicking, thanks to many years of development and gigantic demographics. It's understandable that you don't understand technique (pretending to understand, on the other hand, is not) but If you can't understand that which I just stated, you're simply in denial. These are facts.

You probably paid a lot for your traditional mt training

It ok to be "invested" in tradition

However...
Many times people who look at the big picture have the clearest view

Yes, I do invest most of my money in educating myself on regards that matter to me, and I also trained and trained with dozens of athletes from all kinds of backgrounds.

As of now, I think I provided enough information for whoever stumble upon this thread and is interested in understanding muay thai kicking and the context revolving around this, so you can continue your journey of self validation without my interference

 

[-guerilla-]

Sure, that tournament that in the most competitive division it was ruled by a thai and then an italian who kicks like a nak muay. Similar stuff happens in tourneys based around that ruleset, like Glory, for example. 70kg and downwards there's always a thai kicking the crap out of everybody, like Sittichai, Kaew or Petpanonrung.

Shit, sometimes they JUST kick and win fights...



Yeah, man... Heavyweights can get away with technique that is less refined. Everybody with a functioning set of eyes can understand that. They're also generally less coordinated. It's just the way it is. If the K1 heavyweights kicked with better technique they would kick harder, no question about it. Doesn't mean they couldn't score a lot of KOs with their kicks. Heavyweights, you know?! Do you get it?

Basic stuff to understand, but it seems that yourself being a heavyweight you have this uncontrollable need to justify your poor technique while downplaying better technique.



What you mean by "fighting karate"? Are you talking about knockdown rules? Or those relatively new full contact karate tournaments fought in some kind of pit?

If the former:


If the latter: I don't have a link, but if it is what I think it is it's just the sloppiest shit I ever saw in my life. That's ok, though. As I also said, it's relatively new, maybe they'll improve with time.

As of now Muay Thai is the most developed full contact sport which involves kicking, thanks to many years of development and gigantic demographics. It's understandable that you don't understand technique (pretending to understand, on the other hand, is not) but If you can't understand that which I just stated, you're simply in denial. These are facts.



Yes, I do invest most of my money in educating myself on regards that matter to me, and I also trained and trained with dozens of athletes from all kinds of backgrounds.

As of now, I think I provided enough information for whoever stumble upon this thread and is interested in understanding muay thai kicking and the context revolving around this, so you can continue your journey of self validation without my interference

Sure, that tournament that in the most competitive division it was ruled by a thai and then an italian who kicks like a nak muay. Similar stuff happens in tourneys based around that ruleset, like Glory, for example. 70kg and downwards there's always a thai kicking the crap out of everybody, like Sittichai, Kaew or Petpanonrung.

Shit, sometimes they JUST kick and win fights...



Yeah, man... Heavyweights can get away with technique that is less refined. Everybody with a functioning set of eyes can understand that. They're also generally less coordinated. It's just the way it is. If the K1 heavyweights kicked with better technique they would kick harder, no question about it. Doesn't mean they couldn't score a lot of KOs with their kicks. Heavyweights, you know?! Do you get it?

Basic stuff to understand, but it seems that yourself being a heavyweight you have this uncontrollable need to justify your poor technique while downplaying better technique.



What you mean by "fighting karate"? Are you talking about knockdown rules? Or those relatively new full contact karate tournaments fought in some kind of pit?

If the former:


If the latter: I don't have a link, but if it is what I think it is it's just the sloppiest shit I ever saw in my life. That's ok, though. As I also said, it's relatively new, maybe they'll improve with time.

As of now Muay Thai is the most developed full contact sport which involves kicking, thanks to many years of development and gigantic demographics. It's understandable that you don't understand technique (pretending to understand, on the other hand, is not) but If you can't understand that which I just stated, you're simply in denial. These are facts.



Yes, I do invest most of my money in educating myself on regards that matter to me, and I also trained and trained with dozens of athletes from all kinds of backgrounds.

As of now, I think I provided enough information for whoever stumble upon this thread and is interested in understanding muay thai kicking and the context revolving around this, so you can continue your journey of self validation without my interference

things make sense to me now...

if you are traditional muay thai practitioner steeped in the obedience of the students mentality who has invested a fair amount of money in your practice, you may be tempted to label other people's technique as wrong...even "dangerous"

How typical

Remember heavy weight fighters cannot scientifically move the same way the very small thais can....its basic physics

thai practitioners have perfected the sport of Muay Thais round kick to the absolute maximum power the typical thai frame can produce and i am happy you have found joy in learning it...HOWEVER

Im talking about the round kick applied across ALL weightclasses and sports...not simply for the sport of MuayThai

Fighting karate is the most developed style of full contact kicking besides international kickboxing and they both tend to kick with a flat base foot

Of course MMA style round kicks are largely flat foot despite the strong MT influence

I will stick to my assertion that the flat base foot is better overall as opposed to "bouncing" up on your tippy toes whenever you kick above the waist

then again i have been wrestling as long as i have been obsessed with kickboxing and am very comfortable shooting in on a MT kicker... (because its soooo easy to take them down)

Benny the jet
Ramon dekkars and ESPECIALLY Danny Bill proved that flat foot "European and American" style kicking was compeditive with MT in MT itself

Fedor
Cro cop
Anderson silva
Adesanya

Have proved that flat foot base foot round kicks are best for MMA

You respect your teacher and thats commendable

Try to keep an open mind about why wrestlers can take you down so easy....

# its the bounce

 

[aerius]

here's my technique

View attachment 682133 View attachment 682135 View attachment 682137

When you can't even position yourself to land a kick consistently on a non-moving pad...

You are literally worse than spacetime, at least he can consistently rotate 30° short on his kicks, you can't even do that. You don't even have the ability to consistently set the range, angle, and positioning on your kicks, not only do you get it all wrong, you get it wrong in a different way every time. This is literally the lowest level of beginner skills. And yet here you are insisting that everyone else is doing it wrong, you are truly speshul.

 

[-guerilla-]

When you can't even position yourself to land a kick consistently on a non-moving pad...

You are literally worse than spacetime, at least he can consistently rotate 30° short on his kicks, you can't even do that. You don't even have the ability to consistently set the range, angle, and positioning on your kicks, not only do you get it all wrong, you get it wrong in a different way every time. This is literally the lowest level of beginner skills. And yet here you are insisting that everyone else is doing it wrong, you are truly speshul.

LOL

Thats a funny video

I "rotate" just fine

You traditionalists are just afraid of change and have invested a lot of money in your fallacies

You get angry when someone is successful doing it a different way and as expected there will be some lashing out

Israel adesanya
Cro Cop
Jon Jones
Machida
Ernesto Hoost
Danny Bill
Rick Roufus

And a host of other world champions kick this way...

Muay Thai is literally the only style that consistently bounces up on the tippy toes when kicking above the waist

Your post is a classic example of what I've been warning about...traditionalists always think people who do things differently are doing it "wrong"

You are obedient to your host style to a fault

# students mentality

 

[Lucas Coradini]

I swear I tried to keep quiet, but you're making it so hard with that last response I'll have to address all that bullshit

things make sense to me now...

if you are traditional muay thai practitioner steeped in the obedience of the students mentality who has invested a fair amount of money in your practice, you may be tempted to label other people's technique as wrong...even "dangerous"

How typical

As for different technique being "wrong" I never said that. Instead, I said that YOU are wrong in claiming that your preferred method is superior to the Muay Thai method and that it doesn't lack power in comparison. I'm well aware that great fighters use variation of technique, as picture perfect technique will not be suitable for every possible case scenario that may happen in a fight.

As for this specific variation being dangerous for the athlete... Well, it CAN be terrible for the knees, if not done carefully as it was not designed for following through, like a proper Muay Thai kick, but to snap.

. Remember heavy weight fighters cannot scientifically move the same way the very small thais can....its basic physics

It's really upsetting that you keep using words like "physics" and "scientifically" without any substance... Scientifically how? You mean like a man cannot get pregnant? Or walk on the water? I teach people, dude. I have three heavyweight students who can throw muay thai kicks just fine. One of them is from Maine, lol, american sized, just how you like it. It's harder for them than it is for smaller people? Of course. "Scientifically" impossible? Nope.

You have a very vague idea about what science is... or "basic physics".

Im talking about the round kick applied across ALL weightclasses and sports...not simply for the sport of MuayThai

A couple posts ago when I said I didn't care for your bullshit takedown defense theory you tld me flat footed kicking was better not only for MMA, but for Muay Thai too, so which one is it? You can't have both and be changing your point everytime you run out of arguments.

IFighting karate is the most developed style of full contact kicking besides international kickboxing and they both tend to kick with a flat base foot

That's a pretty bold statement. You can't just pull it out of your ass like that. Based on what you make such a claim?! And please, for the love of god, what the fuck is fighting karate?

 

[-guerilla-]

I swear I tried to keep quiet, but you're making it so hard with that last response I'll have to address all that bullshit



As for different technique being "wrong" I never said that. Instead, I said that YOU are wrong in claiming that your preferred method is superior to the Muay Thai method and that it doesn't lack power in comparison. I'm well aware that great fighters use variation of technique, as picture perfect technique will not be suitable for every possible case scenario that may happen in a fight.

As for this specific variation being dangerous for the athlete... Well, it CAN be terrible for the knees, if not done carefully as it was not designed for following through, like a proper Muay Thai kick, but to snap.



It's really upsetting that you keep using words like "physics" and "scientifically" without any substance... Scientifically how? You mean like a man cannot get pregnant? Or walk on the water? I teach people, dude. I have three heavyweight students who can throw muay thai kicks just fine. One of them is from Maine, lol, american sized, just how you like it. It's harder for them than it is for smaller people? Of course. "Scientifically" impossible? Nope.

You have a very vague idea about what science is... or "basic physics".



A couple posts ago when I said I didn't care for your bullshit takedown defense theory you tld me flat footed kicking was better not only for MMA, but for Muay Thai too, so which one is it? You can't have both and be changing your point everytime you run out of arguments.



That's a pretty bold statement. You can't just pull it out of your ass like that. Based on what you make such a claim?! And please, for the love of god, what the fuck is fighting karate?

no wonder you dont understand kicking so well...you dont even know what fighting karate is!!
ie...
ASHIHARA KARATE / KYOKUSHIN KARATE

A heavyweight CAN kick like a tiny thai but its not as effective and will lessen their performance!!

your heel can slide across the mat because your WEIGHT is on the ball of your foot and there is a VERY SMALL amount of friction between your heel and the mat surface [knees are safe]

# science

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction

MT is the only fighting style that espouses the "pop up" round kick and this make them hyper vulnerable to takedowns







* its ok to hate other styles...just calling it "dangerous" is foolish

you probably paid a lot of money to learn to hop up on your toes as your throw your round kick...problem is that makes you takedown bait

watch MT legend Burkaw kicking FLAT FOOT STYLE




MUAY THAI CAN GET "KUNG FU MOVIE" SILLY SOMETIMES...its not the most scientific of arts and is quite often inconsistent

 

[-guerilla-]

Muay Thai can be very inconstant...

TIPPY TOE:


NO TIPPY TOE:


Fighting karate has a well developed scoring system where slams and sweeps score BIG so their kicking style is focused on not getting knocked off their feet whereas in MT getting swept is not as big a deal

 

[-guerilla-]

One of the most common fallacies about round kicks is that you have to "roll or turn" your hip all the way over for it to have significant power

"Punt" style round kicks can be devastating and athletes that know how to throw these "non traditional kicks" are some of the most acomplished in fight history per these photos

rolling or turning your hip completely over changes the style of kick and it attack angle options ...
you can throw them upward...horizontal or downward!

with the "punt" style round kick [closed hips] they all hit "upward"... its a different type of kick!

You dont have to completely extend [roll or turn your hip] to KO your opponent as "conventional" wisdom suggests...its just a different type of kick

 

[-guerilla-]

One of the best flat foot kickers in history..