Tippy toes a no no...a better way to kick

[StanClarker]

Judo is certainly not bound by the gi but often constrained by it because of the traditional mentality

I see yet again the MMA bias. Traditional whatever is 'constrained.'

Those of us that are willing to break with that traditional mentality are able to modify it

That's one way to look @ it. I just made a recent post that the proponents of boxing & say muay thai popular in MMA don't seem to follow any detailed boxing program such as that I've been introduced, but regurgitate the types of boxing drills all over YT. Like hitting mitts, and the heavy bag, and various sparring sessions showing how they can mix it up whatever, now that they found the 'secret weapon' in some trainer(s) which quit.

This thread maintains a similar concept about a hybrid kick between fighting karate and MT

Yeah, and I saw that in YT videos I followed up with up reading those posts. All makes perfect sense. Yet, I've seen the same variations within the Shotokan karate style, not so much TKD. Nor Kyokushin.

The whipping action of the MT roundkick with the stability and versatility of the fighting karate base foot

I can just give a lay opinion here... makes sense but why not make a less powerful, less committed kick in Muay Thai form? Don't see why their's only one way to do a Muay Thai technique. I mean they have a jab & cross in punching.

That's the MMA version

AWWWW,,, MMA kicking is all over the map. no standard. Maybe that's what you coach.

Its better in every criteria except absolute power and the power bump is negligible compaired to the TDD (takedown defense)

Again, I think people are ignoring the base art's tools for some MMA mixing blendr. Because MMA buys this, doesn't eclipse a dedicated boxing program. In my book.

The acid test is MMA

Take what is useful and discard the rest*

Assumes you know what is useful. Assumes you know more than the masters of the art. Floyd Mayweather doesn't come across sounding like this. Neither does the local boxing gym owner.

MMA rules TSF for sure, acid test wise. Everything else is only repairable with MMA popular arts.

 

[StanClarker]

The most important difference between the MT and KARATE round kick is the base leg and foot

I left out the rest of the quote because I don't know the technical side. What I've watched, however, it would seem whatever action conserves or preserves the integrity of the overall technique is what's justified.

For further conversation purposes, I have to bow out.

 

[Tayski]

That's very interesting... probably we're not talking about the same techniques, but I was talking about the Kyokushin Mawashi Geri.





The difference seems clear to me.

Those are Jodan Masashi geri's (roundhouse to the head) and a lot of them are typically done differently (usually chambered or for example Brazilian style faking mid and going high for the element of surprise). The standard muay thai high kick has less chance of success in Knockdown where people are used to kicks and blocking kicks, they're also harder to set up in the knockdown ruleset compared to MT.

I was talking about a roundhouse to the body in my previous post.

 

[-guerilla-]

I see yet again the MMA bias. Traditional whatever is 'constrained.'


That's one way to look @ it. I just made a recent post that the proponents of boxing & say muay thai popular in MMA don't seem to follow any detailed boxing program such as that I've been introduced, but regurgitate the types of boxing drills all over YT. Like hitting mitts, and the heavy bag, and various sparring sessions showing how they can mix it up whatever, now that they found the 'secret weapon' in some trainer(s) which quit.


Yeah, and I saw that in YT videos I followed up with up reading those posts. All makes perfect sense. Yet, I've seen the same variations within the Shotokan karate style, not so much TKD. Nor Kyokushin.


I can just give a lay opinion here... makes sense but why not make a less powerful, less committed kick in Muay Thai form? Don't see why their's only one way to do a Muay Thai technique. I mean they have a jab & cross in punching.


AWWWW,,, MMA kicking is all over the map. no standard. Maybe that's what you coach.


Again, I think people are ignoring the base art's tools for some MMA mixing blendr. Because MMA buys this, doesn't eclipse a dedicated boxing program. In my book.


Assumes you know what is useful. Assumes you know more than the masters of the art. Floyd Mayweather doesn't come across sounding like this. Neither does the local boxing gym owner.

MMA rules TSF for sure, acid test wise. Everything else is only repairable with MMA popular arts.

I left out the rest of the quote because I don't know the technical side. What I've watched, however, it would seem whatever action conserves or preserves the integrity of the overall technique is what's justified.

For further conversation purposes, I have to bow out.

My youth was in places that treated martial arts like a cultural treasure not like a local business opportunity

We always viewed the ultimate test of your skills as street fight survival

Soccer kick MMA is nearly a perfect analog for real world 1 on 1 unarmed combat

I pay little attention to pure sport technique applications (like pulling guard in BJJ or turtling in judo/wrestling)

The tippy toe roundkick is a sport specific technique and is a LIABILITY in MMA or street fighting because it makes you so easy to take down with traditional wrestling theory

I am a veteran wrestling/kickboxing coach...theres a very good reason the best MMA fighters in history kick with a flat base foot and a bent knee

 

[StanClarker]

My youth was in places that treated martial arts like a cultural treasure not like a local business opportunity

We always viewed the ultimate test of your skills as street fight survival

Soccer kick MMA is nearly a perfect analog for real world 1 on 1 unarmed combat

I pay little attention to pure sport technique applications (like pulling guard in BJJ or turtling in judo/wrestling)

The tippy toe roundkick is a sport specific technique and is a LIABILITY in MMA or street fighting because it makes you so easy to take down with traditional wrestling theory

I am a veteran wrestling/kickboxing coach...theres a very good reason the best MMA fighters in history kick with a flat base foot and a bent knee

I have no reason to doubt.

MMA has great potential for martial arts interpretation. Such as yours.

Props.

 

[Lucas Coradini]

Those are Jodan Masashi geri's (roundhouse to the head) and a lot of them are typically done differently (usually chambered or for example Brazilian style faking mid and going high for the element of surprise). The standard muay thai high kick has less chance of success in Knockdown where people are used to kicks and blocking kicks, they're also harder to set up in the knockdown ruleset compared to MT.

I was talking about a roundhouse to the body in my previous post.

I see... I tried finding a good video of the Mawashi aimed at the body but couldn't, but as far as I remember from what was demonstrated to me in person it is still very different than the Muay Thai angle kick. Would you have video of it, or could you describe the technique?

The Muay Thai kick as I know it starts with hip extension via stepping (whole body turns), and that way your body "pulls" the kick from the ground. The mawashi starts by lifting the knee, and then rotating the hips, which don't go through the target. I'm no expert in karate, I'm just describing it as I saw from training with a lot of karatecas and kickboxers from karate oriented schools. Therefore, if I am correct about it, it should be clear the Muay Thai kick projects more body weight into the strike. Hip positioning (extension) before AND during the kick is the main difference between the two techniques (take note, @-guerilla- ) concerning body weight/power.

ps: I remember an old Peter Cunningham tutorial where he explains the difference between a Karate and a Muay Thai kick and he goes to show the exact same kick, but for thai kick he just throw it and spin around 360°... That was (maybe still is) a very popular misconception, as Muay Thai itself wasn't introduced to the west by thai fighters, but karateca and tkd fighters adapting what they already know to a full contact/kickboxing scenario.

 

[-guerilla-]

I see... I tried finding a good video of the Mawashi aimed at the body but couldn't, but as far as I remember from was demonstrated to me in person it is still very different than the Muay Thai angle kick. Would have video of it, or could you describe the technique?

The Muay Thai kick as I know it starts with hip extension via stepping (whole body turns), and that way your body "pulls" the kick from the ground. The mawashi starts by lifting the knee, and then rotating the hips, which don't go through the target. I'm no expert in karate, I'm just describing it as I saw from training with a lot of karatecas and kickboxers from karate oriented schools. Therefore, if I am correct about it, it should be clear the Muay Thai kick projects more body weight into the strike. Hip positioning (extension) before AND during the kick is the main difference between the two techniques (take note, @-guerilla- ) concerning body weight/power.

ps: I remember and old Peter Cunningham tutorial where he explains the difference between a Karate and a Muay Thai kick and he goes to show the exact same kick, but for thai kick he just throw it and spin around 360°... That was (maybe still is) a very popular misconception, as Muay Thai itself wasn't introduced to the west by thai fighters, but karateca and tkd fighters adapting what they already know to a full contact/kickboxing scenario.

The thais nearly always kick the same...with a step in whip and heavy upper body counter twist

Fighting KARATE demonstrates a typical karate snap kick in presentation but when they compete, hit the bag or spar they tend to throw the whip style kick with a heavy arm pump just like MT....

the biggest difference is karate usually keeps a bent base leg and flat base foot

You usually see this kind of kick from international kickboxing as well

The tippy toe is uniquely muay thai but everybody does it sometimes

Andy hug
Fihlo
Machida

Were all fighting karate guys that moved into kickboxing but almost all international kickboxers round kick the fighting karate way as do
Jon jones
Cro cop
Adesanya
GSP

 

[-guerilla-]

an interesting take

too bad he did not touch on MMA TDD

 

[Tayski]

I see... I tried finding a good video of the Mawashi aimed at the body but couldn't, but as far as I remember from what was demonstrated to me in person it is still very different than the Muay Thai angle kick. Would you have video of it, or could you describe the technique?

The Muay Thai kick as I know it starts with hip extension via stepping (whole body turns), and that way your body "pulls" the kick from the ground. The mawashi starts by lifting the knee, and then rotating the hips, which don't go through the target. I'm no expert in karate, I'm just describing it as I saw from training with a lot of karatecas and kickboxers from karate oriented schools. Therefore, if I am correct about it, it should be clear the Muay Thai kick projects more body weight into the strike. Hip positioning (extension) before AND during the kick is the main difference between the two techniques (take note, @-guerilla- ) concerning body weight/power.

ps: I remember an old Peter Cunningham tutorial where he explains the difference between a Karate and a Muay Thai kick and he goes to show the exact same kick, but for thai kick he just throw it and spin around 360°... That was (maybe still is) a very popular misconception, as Muay Thai itself wasn't introduced to the west by thai fighters, but karateca and tkd fighters adapting what they already know to a full contact/kickboxing scenario.

You can see it throw several times on this video, on pads and during fights:


And here you can see Andy Hug doing it on pads:


The mawashi geri in Kyokushin is thrown in a very similar way to MT. The chambering that you see in traditional styles of Karate is almost non existent in order to be faster and more powerful. You go through the target with it, which is something I had to work on because coming from Shotokan originally we didn't go through the target, while in Kyokushin you had to kick like you wanted to cut the person in half with your kick. You also turn your foot in order to turn your hip completely with the kick. The little chambering you do actually helps with going further into your opponent once you make contact instead of stopping at impact because your leg is already straight like in MT, at the detriment of maybe not bringing your leg back as fast. That's the slight variation I notice.

 

[-guerilla-]

You can see it throw several times on this video, on pads and during fights:


And here you can see Andy Hug doing it on pads:


The mawashi geri in Kyokushin is thrown in a very similar way to MT. The chambering that you see in traditional styles of Karate is almost non existent in order to be faster and more powerful. You go through the target with it, which is something I had to work on because coming from Shotokan originally we didn't go through the target, while in Kyokushin you had to kick like you wanted to cut the person in half with your kick. You also turn your foot in order to turn your hip completely with the kick. The little chambering you do actually helps with going further into your opponent once you make contact instead of stopping at impact because your leg is already straight like in MT, at the detriment of maybe not bringing your leg back as fast. That's the slight variation I notice.

I was first exposed to MT as a kid in Hawaii but later got into karate and then MT again

I always preferred the flat foot method because i was a super heavy and had a lot of grappling experience

the muay thai predilection to "hop" up into their high kicks is a terrible liability for MMA

 

[-guerilla-]

As you can see Japanese kickboxing tends to kick with the flat base foot and bent leg of KARATE...a superior methods in most categories

 

[-guerilla-]

 

[MuayThai101]

I once threw a flat footed low kick due to being exhausted and i missed my target.....

My knee did not enjoy that.



but yes, there is a time and place for everything,

 

[-guerilla-]

I once threw a flat footed low kick due to being exhausted and i missed my target.....

My knee did not enjoy that.



but yes, there is a time and place for everything,

If you try to pivot with your weight equally distributed between the three points of contact of your foot it is definitely a stressful event for your knee and could certainly be dangerous on the wrong mat surface

That's why weight shifting is so critical in all Combat Sports

There are so many ways you can shift your weight or Propel yourself that each strike has 100 variants

Try shifting your weight to the ball of your foot while keeping your heel on the ground and only bearing a few pounds of your weight, you can pivot just fine and you won't be bouncing up your center of gravity while you kick making you take down bait

 

[-guerilla-]

 

[MuayThai101]

If you try to pivot with your weight equally distributed between the three points of contact of your foot it is definitely a stressful event for your knee and could certainly be dangerous on the wrong mat surface

That's why weight shifting is so critical in all Combat Sports

There are so many ways you can shift your weight or Propel yourself that each strike has 100 variants

Try shifting your weight to the ball of your foot while keeping your heel on the ground and only bearing a few pounds of your weight, you can pivot just fine and you won't be bouncing up your center of gravity while you kick making you take down bait

The issue comes with missing your target though. If your opponent dodges your kick, a muay thai style kick will go through and you spin around on the ball of your foot. Where as with karate chamber kicks, they bring it back so being on the ball of the foot isn’t necessary because they wont spin.

Ill try it out next time on the bag and see, but the risk is in sparring.

 

[-guerilla-]

The issue comes with missing your target though. If your opponent dodges your kick, a muay thai style kick will go through and you spin around on the ball of your foot. Where as with karate chamber kicks, they bring it back so being on the ball of the foot isn’t necessary because they wont spin.

Ill try it out next time on the bag and see, but the risk is in sparring.

The best kickboxers should be able to throw any kick necessary in any given situation

I think that's why people like John Jones and GSP were so successful

I have done...
Muay thai
American "PKA" KICKBOXING
Karate
TKD

and they ALL have something to offer with MT being considerably most effective

Flat foot MT kicking takes a ton of flexibility but once mastered is superior especially for MMA as it hits plenty hard yet allows for faster followups and is ESPECIALLY important for take down defense

remember we are not talking about an equal distribution of weight across the three points of contact of your foot (2 in the "ball" 1 in the heel) while you pivot but rather a system where you place 90 percent of your weight on the ball of your foot and less than 10% resides in your heel which now can easily slide across the mat or pop-up momentarily for the pivot but then settles down into a flat foot with a bent base leg as the kick impacts it's Target

I believe that the tippy toe kicking is subconscious reaching as you see the same fighter throw it often on high kicks occasionally on Mid kicks and virtually never on Low

I believe it worked its way into the system and is believed to be critical for pivoting (fallacy)

HOWEVER

I will concede that the bounce imparts a tiny fraction of power to the kick so its likely just slightly harder hitting (however the power is negligible compaired to the liabilities for MMA)

Any "centrifugal" kick can "drag you" past your target if you over commit

MT considers it common

Its considered a mistake in karate and tkd

Remember "fighting" karate throws many of their roundkicks like muay thai and commonly spin thru

Muay Thai with FIGHTING KARATE kicking is the best stand up combo for MMA

look at

Jon jones
GSP
Adesanya
Cro COP

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyokushin

 

[-guerilla-]

Flat foot round kicks from kickboxing and MMA

 

[-guerilla-]

Here you can see the classic flat foot punt style round kick that made cro cop famous and ended heath herrings evening

*all wrong via traditional MT teaching