Tippy toes a no no...a better way to kick

[Snubnoze707]

kickboxers don't go up on there ball of their foot when they throw low kicks so why would they do it when they throw high kicks?

Because they are two different kicks with different mechanics. For low kicks you are lowering your base and chopping down on the leg. For mids/highs your raising your base and kicking upward. You shouldn't apply all low kick mechanics to mid/high. I'm not following your logic here...

 

[Monte Moku]

Take a look at this guy, you may have heard of him, watch that base foot, always flat!

EXACTLY!!!
the step in negates the need to pivot dramatically and thus negates the need to go on the ball of your foot....excellent reply and observation!!!

I'm not saying pivoting on a flat foot gives you more or less power, I'm saying it's a surefire way to mess up your knees. The only way to go about the round kick without raising the heel (at least as far as my knowledge goes) is to step out with your ankle already at an angle, but from my experience I still need to raise my heel when I am rotating my hips in order to get all of my power into it. I'm also not a pro fighter, so the reasoning for doing things the way we do could be completely different than my analysis; I'm only around the amateur Muay Thai scene here in the states and just watch a lot of shit at home haha

 

[Snubnoze707]

Ya, even stepping out with a pivoted foot you're still putting a ton of torque on your knee when throwing a Thai roundhouse if your foot is flat. The exception would be a more Karate style chambered kick where you don't have such a drastic hip rotation.

Ultimately its risk versus reward. In my experience flat footed puts more wear and tear on your planted leg and doesn't offer any power benefit and restricts movement.

 

[-guerilla-]

Quite possibly the best example of the no pivot on the ball of your foot round kick...

my argument here is what works for the low kick works for the high kick you just have the flexibility to reach up there

rising up on the ball of your foot is something you should always try to avoid

 

[-guerilla-]

I'm not saying pivoting on a flat foot gives you more or less power, I'm saying it's a surefire way to mess up your knees. The only way to go about the round kick without raising the heel (at least as far as my knowledge goes) is to step out with your ankle already at an angle, but from my experience I still need to raise my heel when I am rotating my hips in order to get all of my power into it. I'm also not a pro fighter, so the reasoning for doing things the way we do could be completely different than my analysis; I'm only around the amateur Muay Thai scene here in the states and just watch a lot of shit at home haha

You can shift the weight to the ball of your foot while your heel is touching the canvas and this in effect allows you to Pivot on the ball of your foot without raising up to tip toe.

this is not a power debate necessarily it's really an anti sweep trip, dump Theory however I would argue it gives you better power.

I am not suggesting that one equally distributes their weight between the three points of contact on their foot while pivoting
(2 ball 1 heel) but places 90% of their weight on the two front ball bones and only 10% on their heel, this coupled with a deep knee Bend allows the kicker to stay much more firmly planted and deliver an extremely heavy Kick

I suggest one steps in to their kick in order to negate most of the need for pivoting.

I feel like raising up on the ball of your foot is habituated into kicking Theory from traditional martial arts in point karate.... even the best fighters do it but they'd be better off if they did not.

 

[Snubnoze707]

rising up on the ball of your foot is something you should always try to avoid

Well that's contrary to 95+% of all Muay Thai trainers out there will tell you. If flat foot round houses work for you in your world go for it, I just don't think it's good advice to tell people not to do it like the vast majority of kickers out there, including some of the hardest kickers out there like Yodsanklai, especially when their are potential injury risks.

 

[-guerilla-]

Well that's contrary to 95+% of all Muay Thai trainers out there will tell you. If flat foot round houses work for you in your world go for it, I just don't think it's good advice to tell people not to do it like the vast majority of kickers out there, including some of the hardest kickers out there like Yodsanklai, especially when their are potential injury risks.

What can I say, I like the way Fedor and Danny bill kick....

 

[aerius]

I suggest one steps in to their kick in order to negate most of the need for pivoting.

I feel like raising up on the ball of your foot is habituated into kicking Theory from traditional martial arts in point karate.... even the best fighters do it but they'd be better off if they did not.

Stepping in to kick does not work in high level Muay Thai where fighters actually know how to read & defend kicks. By the time you take your step-in to set your lead leg for the kick, your opponent has either gotten into position to block it or counter-kicked you before your kick's even halfway there. The step-in is a giant tell that will get you punished by a good Nak Muay, there's a reason that good kickers don't use it unless their opponent is off-balance or out of position.

 

[-guerilla-]

Stepping in to kick does not work in high level Muay Thai where fighters actually know how to read & defend kicks. By the time you take your step-in to set your lead leg for the kick, your opponent has either gotten into position to block it or counter-kicked you before your kick's even halfway there. The step-in is a giant tell that will get you punished by a good Nak Muay, there's a reason that good kickers don't use it unless their opponent is off-balance or out of position.

Hmmm pretty certain feints and combos allow even the average Nak Muay to step into the round kick (crocs tail kick)

Bro, I'm not suggesting you stand in the middle of the ring and take one giant step toward your opponent before you throw a single kick!

All "wind up" angular step in kicks must be disguised within combos to be effective.

OR..... you might get lucky and catch someone up on their toes and score and easy sweep, dump or throw!

 

[j123]

the old MMA gym had me do the typical try to stay planted on the lead as possible as it would be better for TDD (a funny statement when you think about it).

Switched gyms last year, and they've been teaching me the raising on the ball, and it feels much more natural, faster, and stronger for me. Pivoting is much more fluid and easier. It also blends well with the way I stand and move, I tend to be on the ball most times. Also, its not like you have to raise to the roof on it, as long as there's a rise to get onto the ball.

 

[-guerilla-]

the old MMA gym had me do the typical try to stay planted on the lead as possible as it would be better for TDD (a funny statement when you think about it).

Switched gyms last year, and they've been teaching me the raising on the ball, and it feels much more natural, faster, and stronger for me. Pivoting is much more fluid and easier. It also blends well with the way I stand and move, I tend to be on the ball most times. Also, its not like you have to raise to the roof on it, as long as there's a rise to get onto the ball.

Do you rise up on the ball of your foot when you low kick?

Do you straighten the knee of your supporting leg?

I think it does feel more natural and it definitely will improve your pirouette however my point in the discussion has to do with its vulnerability 2 sweeps, power and counterstrike durability....however it will be easier to pivot.

The ease of pivot argument is a good one it is easier to Pivot when you rise up on the ball of your foot however and every other category it is less effective and makes you more vulnerable

if it were true that it's all about pivot then people would do it when they low kick...
they don't ...

Rising up on the ball of your foot when you kick is subconscious reaching and it's a bad habit

you can shift your weight to the ball of your foot while keeping your heel touching the ground.

you can put 99% of your weight on the ball of your foot as long as 1% is firmly planted in your heel and it is touching the ground.

I kick with 80 ball 20 heel weight distribution and angular step in with a deeply bent leg.

Try it....
..pivot will be a breeze and the next time sombody trys to sweep you they will not be able to.

Watch Danny Bill kick low in slow motion

 

[Kanka]

Do you rise up on the ball of your foot when you low kick?

Do you straighten the knee of your supporting leg?

When low kicking lifting your heel up or not is not a question of wether you'll get sweeped or not. It's about position, distance and power.

You can low kick from a stationary position and "pivot". Then the kick trajectory will usually be upwards. To do this kick you have to be pretty close to your opponent though, or else you might hit your opponent with the top of your foot which can hurt your ankle. It's a bit similar to a normal thai body kick, but you aim lower.

Here is a video of Buakaw doing this type of low kick. You can see he doesn't really plant his foot heavily and he doesn't lower his center of gravity.


You can also take a step forward or outwards diagonally, while lowering your point of gravity. This will hit with the shin and hurts a bit more since your center of gravity is closer to the opponents thigh, and you have more momentum. Pornsanae is probably the most famous for doing this type of kick as you'll see in the video below.


If you want to avoid getting sweeped you need to be as mobile as possible though... by planting your foot you give up balance/mobility and will most likely be swept more easily.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Do you rise up on the ball of your foot when you low kick?

Do you straighten the knee of your supporting leg?

I think it does feel more natural and it definitely will improve your pirouette however my point in the discussion has to do with its vulnerability 2 sweeps, power and counterstrike durability....however it will be easier to pivot.

The ease of pivot argument is a good one it is easier to Pivot when you rise up on the ball of your foot however and every other category it is less effective and makes you more vulnerable

if it were true that it's all about pivot then people would do it when they low kick...
they don't ...

Rising up on the ball of your foot when you kick is subconscious reaching and it's a bad habit

you can shift your weight to the ball of your foot while keeping your heel touching the ground.

you can put 99% of your weight on the ball of your foot as long as 1% is firmly planted in your heel and it is touching the ground.

I kick with 80 ball 20 heel weight distribution and angular step in with a deeply bent leg.

Try it....
..pivot will be a breeze and the next time sombody trys to sweep you they will not be able to.

Watch Danny Bill kick low in slow motion

Why do you keep making these statements as fact? I disagree 100%, and so does the vast majority of the Muay Thai trainers out there. I'm sorry, but Fedor and Danny Bill aren't the greatest Nak Muays out there. You continue to apply low kick mechanics to mid and high, they are different kicks.

 

[-guerilla-]

Why do you keep making these statements as fact? I disagree 100%, and so does the vast majority of the Muay Thai trainers out there. I'm sorry, but Fedor and Danny Bill aren't the greatest Nak Muays out there. You continue to apply low kick mechanics to mid and high, they are different kicks.

I guess if you're training exclusively for kickboxing you're not worried about getting swept but for the rest of us it's a pretty serious situation. I just want people that train in Thaiboxing for MMA or street to realize there's some pretty big holes in the system and in my opinion the only major problem with real Muay Thai as as it is practiced in Thailand is the raising up on the ball of the foot.

The mechanics of the low medium and high kick are exactly the same

all you have to do is be more flexible at the hip they're all exactly the same.

There's the upward /horizontal and downward attack Arc of the roundkick, that's the only variation....how you plant your base foot should remain the same in all of these...maybee 10% more pivot on the higher kicks but a angular step in should negate the need to Pivot almost completely...

you're just reaching up on your toes and straightening your leg because your subconsciously trying to reach higher!

Go to your heavy bag throw your low kicks ....pay attention to how your placing your base foot and do the same thing for all your medium and high kicks... you'll notice you'll have better power more stability and you'll be less vulnerable to sweeps dumps and throws.

once again if it had anything to do with the pivot they would teach you to do it on the low kick also.... it's all about reaching higher which is fine when getting swept isn't a big deal but it's dangerous on the street or in MMA

 

[Kanka]

I guess if you're training exclusively for kickboxing you're not worried about getting swept but for the rest of us it's a pretty serious situation. I just want people that train in Thaiboxing for MMA or street to realize there's some pretty big holes in the system and in my opinion the only major problem with real Muay Thai as as it is practiced in Thailand is the raising up on the ball of the foot.

The mechanics of the low medium and high kick are exactly the same

all you have to do is be more flexible at the hip they're all exactly the same.

There's the upward /horizontal and downward attack Arc of the round, that's the only variation....how you plant your base foot should remain the same in all of these...maybee 10% more pivot on the higher kicks but a angular step in should negate the need to Pivot almost completely.

you're just reaching up on your toes and straightening your leg because your subconsciously trying to reach higher!

Go to your heavy bag throw your low kicks ....pay attention to how your placing your base foot and do the same thing for all your medium and high kicks... you'll notice you'll have better power more stability and you'll be less vulnerable to sweeps dumps and throws.

there is not a single elite kicker in muay thai that kicks with a flat foot. It's the opposit. If you train for kickboxing, you can kick with a flat foot because you don't need to be worried about countering their counter in order to win exchanges and score.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I guess if you're training exclusively for kickboxing you're not worried about getting swept but for the rest of us it's a pretty serious situation.

My trainers were trained by Alex Gong, Jongsanan and Bunkerd Fairtex. Always pivot on the ball of your foot or when stepping out raise your heel during the delivery of the kick. Never flat footed. Flat footed was always a no no.

This is how Thais teach it and they deal with more kick sweeps than any other art.

I can't say anymore on this subject.

 

[-guerilla-]

there is not a single elite kicker in muay thai that kicks with a flat foot. It's the opposit. If you train for kickboxing, you can kick with a flat foot because you don't need to be worried about countering their counter in order to win exchanges and score.

My trainers were trained by Alex Gong, Jongsanan and Bunkerd Fairtex. Always pivot on the ball of your foot or when stepping out raise your heel during the delivery of the kick. Never flat footed. Flat footed was always a no no.

This is how Thais teach it and they deal with more kick sweeps than any other art.

I can't say anymore on this subject.

I guess this guy had it all wrong:
Slow motion replays.... he NEVER raises on the ball of his foot

 

[aerius]

Hmmm pretty certain feints and combos allow even the average Nak Muay to step into the round kick (crocs tail kick)

Bro, I'm not suggesting you stand in the middle of the ring and take one giant step toward your opponent before you throw a single kick!

All "wind up" angular step in kicks must be disguised within combos to be effective.

OR..... you might get lucky and catch someone up on their toes and score and easy sweep, dump or throw!

I don't think you've even watched real high level Muay Thai since it doesn't work that way. Again, kick defence is actually something that Nak Muay understand. Combos rarely work since there's this thing called the clinch, unlike kickboxing where fighters generally block while moving away, in Muay Thai they will step in and clinch to tie up your arms and take away space for kicks. Either that or they just teep you and stick you on the outside, see Buakaw vs. Holtzken.

This is not kickboxing or especially MMA where the level of kicking and kick defence is abysmal. It's nearly impossible to get a kick through against a good Nak Muay if you need to use a step-in for your kicks. There's a reason that every good kicker in Muay Thai kicks straight from the stance using a pivot.

I guess this guy had it all wrong:
Slow motion replays.... he NEVER raises on the ball of his foot

Notice something else? Nearly every guy that got swept by Dany Bill had their feet flat on the floor. So much for your improved stability theory.

 

[Kanka]

I guess this guy had it all wrong:
Slow motion replays.... he NEVER raises on the ball of his foot

I never heard of Danny Bill being one of the best kickers in muay thai.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I guess this guy had it all wrong:
Slow motion replays.... he NEVER raises on the ball of his foot

I can give you 1,000 of examples of better fighters than Danny Bill raising their heel if it wasn't a complete waste of time. You're running out of arguements.