Thoughts on running as an MMA fighter?

[DC23]

Do what you enjoy. But I do feel like pure jogging / running isn’t as good as more intense workouts and activities for sure.

 

[Shockpsykos]

running offers more than just cardio, it also conditions the hell out of your legs and even works your core to some extent. i also look at it as an actual valuable skill, like running away from danger and shit like that, or catching the train. or parkour heh. Can't say the same for those aero crossfit bikes or row machines.

I see alot of people who lived sedentary lives for years thinking they can just buy a pair of running shoes and go out running with 0 issue, its kinda the same as a total noob trying to ATG squat without understanding bracing, neutral spine etc.. ofc they will feel it in the knees. Running is a skill that needs to be practiced and performed with proper technique, posture, form etc. not to mention proper programming.. frequency/intensity/volume and all that good shit

 

[aerius]

Lol what a sore loser you are for insulting me when I am proposing a peaceful debate, go get a life bro.
To answer the non-sense you're talking.

1) You clearly never swam for 1 hour non-stop to say that, I shouldn't even answer you after reading this crap
2) I never said V02 max was the only indicator, I said it was 1 indicator (should've written a list with all the possible indicators? lol)
3) "140 BPM are garbage miles". To train your aerobic system, you have to be anywhere between 65% and 80% of your max HR (on the lower end you are exclusively depending on your aerobic system while on the higher end you also depend on your anaerobic system). High level distance runners train at around 75%. Giving the fact your max HR is approximately 220-your age (I was 25 at the time), I was exactly in the good zone at 140.
4) -boxing is more of an aerobic sport than MMA, so I guess it makes more sense to run as a boxer
- more and more guys quit running long distance
- it's not because someone is a great boxer that everything he does is great and that everything he does is what made him great (again, Ali thinking letting someone punching him in the head for 15 minutes was good to "condition his head")

You just proved that you are a ignorant disrespectful moron.

1) Congratulations, you're a google trainer. I've been in the mountain biking world for almost 30 years and my wife was a pretty good swimmer. Either one of us can peg our heart rates at well over 150 for hours. It's not hard.

2) Well you should've said so then shouldn't you? But you didn't because you don't know shit.

3) 220-age is a shitty outdated way of calculating max heart rate, no one who's training seriously uses it. I'm over 40 and my heart rates still maxes out north of 190. Any half serious athlete will do a lactate threshold test to set their training zones. Once you know the LT you set the heart rates for each training zone, and once you've done that you know the pacing required for each zone. Given that your pacing is fairly close to mine, we can infer that your fitness is in the same ballpark as myself. 140bpm is zone 3 which is tempo pace. There's a purpose for it in a structured training program but when you're running in zone 3 all the time it's garbage miles and results in hitting a plateau.

Next, all endurance athletes along with those who are looking to build cardio have structured variances in their training intensity levels. We have easy days where we train at under 70% of LT, bunch of base miles at 70-85% of LT, some tempo miles at 85-95% of LT, and finally some max LT and anaerobic sessions. How much of each you do depends on where you are in your training blocks, but there is no program on Earth where the majority of your time is spent at zone 3 tempo pace. The fact that you think running all the time at "75% of max HR" is actually good training shows that you're a fucking idiot. Even high school kids don't do that when training for track or XC running.

4) Boxing is arguably a more aerobic sport than MMA, but even in MMA the better gyms have figured it out as well. They do not run tempo pace all the time like you did, it generally flips between active recovery/base miles and high intensity threshold training.

Finally, lol at calling me a moron when you've just shown that you know nothing about training. You should be thanking me for dropping all this knowledge on you. You're welcome. Asshat.

 

[kuf]

That's a solid ass 5k time, how did you train to achieve it?

 

[GoatArtemLobov]

You raise some fair points but technique improvements while great and a necessary part of training only work if you have the gas tank to use them.

If you look at the narrative for the McGregor - Poirier fight this weekend, the story was, if Dustin could drag Conor into the later rounds where his gas tank failed him his chances would improve. Now obviously this is not how it played out but Conor actually looked tired at the end of the first round.

There is a guy with a great striking technique but horrible cardio. You really don't think an hour a day of road work wouldn't help?

In Conor's case, I tend to agree with you, it must not be a pleasant feeling to go in a fight knowing you have to ko the guy in the first 2 rounds, you fight with urgency and that's what you wanna avoid.
But for "normal" fighters (Conor really is unusual in that regard), maybe they don't need to run too often

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

So this is just my 2cents on this topic, would like to know what your opinion is on that.

Running and combat sports have been intertwined for ever. There are good reasons to that. Running develops mental toughness and will, and noone has come up yet with a better way to develop your heart. Numerous studies have shown that distance runners have stronger hearts than cyclists and swimmers.
The reason why is that, in order to develop your aerobic capacity, you need to work for a long time at a moderate pace, with your HR anywhere between 130 and 150 BPM approximately. The thing is that with swimming or cycling, you can't maintain that intensity for very long periods of times, since your muscles will give up before, which is NOT the case for running.
However, running a lot comes at a cost. First of all, even with very good technique, you are taxing your lower body joints, there is just no way around. Second, you aren't spending the time you are running working on your technique, and Lord knows that there is a lot to learn in MMA. We also know that "cardio" in MMA or any other combat sport is more specific cardio than cardio from an anatomical standpoint (Heart rate rest rate, Vo2max, etc. etc.). That's why when you take guys who have the same VO2 max but one has extensive martial arts training while the other hasn't, the one who hasn't will gas out way quicker than the trained guy. So specific cardio is a lot about relaxation, movement economy and efficiency, things that come with technical work.
So wouldn't it be better to sacrifice a bit of "anatomical" cardio by giving up running and taking this time to work on technique in a way that is also challenging? The results might be better in the end.
That's why more and more guys, like Joe Valtellini or Usman (because of his fucked knees) don't run and still have supreme cardio.

Now I want to share my own experience with you.
I used to be a pretty decent runner (37 min 10k, 17.5 5k), so I always had good cardio when I started martial arts, all the more than I kept running for 3 times a week.
But 2 years ago I started replacing more and more of that running by specific cardio (bjj drills, tons of challenging shadowboxing etc. etc. and my cardio has even improved.
So for instance, instead of running for an hour, I start with 30 minutes of shadowboxing (also incorporating kicks, knees, elbows and sprawls), then 30 minutes non-stop drilling bjj moves with a buddy of mine. I always monitor my HR with a chest strap, and I'm usually in the 120-140 range, sometimes peaking to 160-165, sometimes getting down to 110-115. So it is NOT as good of an aerobic workout as running where I am at a constant 140 for an hour, but I improved so much more from a technical standpoint (because of focusing more on technique etc. than just running) that this is largely outweighed by efficiency in movement etc.
Last but not least, my knees and hips have never felt so good, and my flexibility has improved a lot (it is known that running makes you stiff, high-level runners ofter are quite stiff, since it favors movement efficiency).
Bottomline, my Vo2 max might have decreased a bit because I almost don't run anymore but I never felt so fresh when training/sparring. I'm pretty sure I would crush and outcardio a parallel version of myself who would have run instead of doing that type of workouts.


Of course, this is just the experience of an amateur and not high level pros, but still. Of course, as an amateur, I still have tons to learn whereas high level fighters already know it all and thus can focus more on their conditionning (but with that being said, if you look at the UFC roster, there are still a lot of fighters who have big holes in their game)

Would like to hear your thoughts on that sherbros

Murrcan mma fighters are unique in their phobia of aerobic running. Very weird since all combat athletes all over the world run a lot.

Builds you leg endurance, too.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

You want to be better at running? Then run.

You want to be better at swimming? Then swim.

You want to be better at mma? Then do mma related things.

You actually have to do whatever it is to get better at it.

 

[runjay]

/thread

 

[GoatArtemLobov]

1) Congratulations, you're a google trainer. I've been in the mountain biking world for almost 30 years and my wife was a pretty good swimmer. Either one of us can peg our heart rates at well over 150 for hours. It's not hard.

2) Well you should've said so then shouldn't you? But you didn't because you don't know shit.

3) 220-age is a shitty outdated way of calculating max heart rate, no one who's training seriously uses it. I'm over 40 and my heart rates still maxes out north of 190. Any half serious athlete will do a lactate threshold test to set their training zones. Once you know the LT you set the heart rates for each training zone, and once you've done that you know the pacing required for each zone. Given that your pacing is fairly close to mine, we can infer that your fitness is in the same ballpark as myself. 140bpm is zone 3 which is tempo pace. There's a purpose for it in a structured training program but when you're running in zone 3 all the time it's garbage miles and results in hitting a plateau.

Next, all endurance athletes along with those who are looking to build cardio have structured variances in their training intensity levels. We have easy days where we train at under 70% of LT, bunch of base miles at 70-85% of LT, some tempo miles at 85-95% of LT, and finally some max LT and anaerobic sessions. How much of each you do depends on where you are in your training blocks, but there is no program on Earth where the majority of your time is spent at zone 3 tempo pace. The fact that you think running all the time at "75% of max HR" is actually good training shows that you're a fucking idiot. Even high school kids don't do that when training for track or XC running.

4) Boxing is arguably a more aerobic sport than MMA, but even in MMA the better gyms have figured it out as well. They do not run tempo pace all the time like you did, it generally flips between active recovery/base miles and high intensity threshold training.

Finally, lol at calling me a moron when you've just shown that you know nothing about training. You should be thanking me for dropping all this knowledge on you. You're welcome. Asshat.

Ok so you were really thinking I ALWAYS ran for one hour at a steady pace all the time lol.
Now I understand why you were so agressive, learn to read lol
I wrote "for instance" in my original post, so that means that it was just one type of workout. I also dit a lot of intervals (mainly 400s, 600s, and 800s) and a lot of tempo miles.
Before I started martial arts, when I only used to run, I trained 4 times a week, usually I had one long run at a steady pace (1hour at 140), 2 long runs with tempo miles (often running on a trail with a lot of hills etc. which I like, since it reduces the impact to run uphill) and one hard 8*800 or 10*600 or 15*400 session on the track.
When I started martial arts, I cut a lot of the "hard sessions" since it was too taxing to do MT, bjj, and hard running at the same time.
But of course it's completely silly to do only long runs lol, hence why I wrote "for instance"


Again, I'm not sold AT ALL on the "maintaining a CONSTANT 150BPM HR for 1 hour in cycling or in swimming is easy" thing. You do mountain biking so it's highly likely you often go well above 150, but also well below. I'm talking about maintaining a constant 150 BPM.
Regarding swimming, here are two studies that should keep your mouh shut
https://myinstabeat.com/2019/11/15/heart-rate-running-swimming/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6915385/

Studies found that the HR while swimming is 15-20 BPM lower than while running (mainly due to being horizontal and because of the buyoancy of the water), so claiming "we can peg our HR at well over 150 for hours (while swimming and cycling), it's not hard" equals to "we can peg our heart rates at well over 170 for hours (when running), it's not hard".
Considering Kipchoge (all-time marathon world record holder) could hold no more than 160-170 BPM for 2 hours when he broke the WR, you and your wife should SERIOUSLY consider competing in order to become the greatest athletes the world has ever seen, while making it even look easy.
Fucking lol, you're fucking clown, you and your wife never put on a chest strap while exercizing (I'm not attacking her, but you), and thought that because you put an index on your neck for 10 seconds and multiply by 6 after riding up a hill or doing a 100m butterfly you would be able to hold that "for hours".

 

[GoatArtemLobov]

Murrcan mma fighters are unique in their phobia of aerobic running. Very weird since all combat athletes all over the world run a lot.

Builds you leg endurance, too.

Yeah but America is still by far the leading nation in MMA, so maybe they aren't that wrong...
Brazilians run even less I believe, and are the second nation.

 

[aerius]

Ok so you were really thinking I ALWAYS ran for one hour at a steady pace all the time lol.
Now I understand why you were so agressive, learn to read lol
I write "for instance" in my original post, so that means that it was just one type of workout. I also dit a lot of intervals (mainly 400s, 600s, and 800s) and a lot of tempo miles.
Before I started martial arts, when I only used to run, I trained 4 times a week, usually I had one long run at a steady pace (1hour at 140), 2 long runs with tempo miles (often running on a trail with a lot of hills etc. which I like, since it reduces the impact to run uphill) and one hard 8*800 or 10*600 or 15*400 session on the track.
When I started martial arts, I cut a lot of the "hard sessions" since it was too taxing to do MT, bjj, and hard running at the same time.
But of course it's completely silly to do only long runs lol, hence why I wrote "for instance"

So you based your entire OP on a garbage premise and you wonder why I'm giving you shit. For fuck's sake man. Grow the fuck up.

Again, I'm not sold AT ALL on the "maintaining a CONSTANT 150BPM HR for 1 hour in cycling or in swimming is easy" thing. You do mountain biking so it's highly likely you often go well above 150, but also well below. I'm talking about maintaining a constant 150 BPM.
Regarding swimming, here are two studies that should keep your mouh shut
https://myinstabeat.com/2019/11/15/heart-rate-running-swimming/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6915385/

Studies found that the HR while swimming is 15-20 BPM lower than while running (mainly due to being horizontal and because of the buyoancy of the water), so claiming "we can peg our HR at well over 150 for hours (while swimming and cycling), it's not hard" equals to "we can peg our heart rates at well over 170 for hours (when running), it's not hard".

1) Did you even read the study you linked? That's a study on max heart rates you dumb fuck, and they were averaging around 190 in the water.
2) Mountain bikers rack up more road miles than trail miles because that's how we maintain a constant heart rate for training you dumb fuck.

Considering Kipchoge (all-time marathon world record holder) could hold no more than 160-170 BPM for 2 hours when he broke the WR, you and your wife should SERIOUSLY consider competing in order to become the greatest athletes the world has ever seen, while making it even look easy.
Fucking lol, you're fucking clown, you and your wife never put on a chest strap while exercizing (I'm not attacking her, but you), and thought that because you put an index on your neck for 10 seconds and multiply by 6 after riding up a hill or doing a 100m butterfly you would be able to hold that "for hours".

160-170 is the average heart rate for the vast majority of marathon runners, regardless of how fast they are. Do you even know what stroke volume is? That's rhetorical by the way, because the answer is clearly no, you dumb shit. But hey, feel free to google up more "facts" so you can look like even more of a dumbass.

 

[GoatArtemLobov]

So you based your entire OP on a garbage premise and you wonder why I'm giving you shit. For fuck's sake man. Grow the fuck up.



1) Did you even read the study you linked? That's a study on max heart rates you dumb fuck, and they were averaging around 190 in the water.
2) Mountain bikers rack up more road miles than trail miles because that's how we maintain a constant heart rate for training you dumb fuck.



160-170 is the average heart rate for the vast majority of marathon runners, regardless of how fast they are. Do you even know what stroke volume is? That's rhetorical by the way, because the answer is clearly no, you dumb shit. But hey, feel free to google up more "facts" so you can look like even more of a dumbass.

1 and 2) so you don't have any arguments so you resort to lying (the first study is NOT only about max HR) and insulting
3) not every marathon runner has the same heart rate, the better you get, the higher your lactate threshold goes, so you can pep higher) that's basic stuff, but you clearly have no clue.

Was a nice thread with guys wanting to discuss and you polluted it with your negativity, agressivity, arrogance, ignorance and lies.
Lol imagine being 40, having a wife, and starting beef with strangers on Sherdog, what a loser you must be.
Won't answer you anymore

 

[HeffDoesWant]

When training alot is had a rhr in the 40s and barely ever ran.

Long and steady is poorly matched to the requirements of a fight which are more explosive high exertion intervals.

 

[Luthien]

I thought we would all gather to hate on Condit.

 

[JonJonesNeedle]

Running undoubtely helped their cardio but who knows I personally think their cardio would've been just as good if they had run less and replaced that training by skill training.
Imagine if Nick had taken half of the time he ran to work on wrestling and kicking, he would've been unstoppable and even better than he was.
There is also a genetic component in their case, they are slow-twitch guys, which is good for cardio obviously but which also explains why they both were so pillowfisted.
It's "easier" to have cardio when you are neither an explosive nor a hard hitting guy.

Nate kinda did this against Pettis, he trained more like a power athlete then usual, hence his cardio seemingly didn't look as good. The diaz brothers are naturally slow twitch fiber fighters, just like how Conor is a fast twitch fiber fighter.

You can be both, but there is trade offs. Good example is Dustin and Khabib. They have less cardio then Diaz brothers or Holloway, but more power and strength. They have less explosive power than Conor, but more cardio. Pretty much 50/50 fast/slow twitch fibers, whereas Diaz are like 25/75 and Conor is 75/25.

 

[aerius]

1 and 2) so you don't have any arguments so you resort to lying (the first study is NOT only about max HR) and insulting

I'll stop insulting you when you stop being stupid.

3) not every marathon runner has the same heart rate, the better you get, the higher your lactate threshold goes, so you can pep higher) that's basic stuff, but you clearly have no clue.

Lol. Marathons are run at around 90% of LT, averaged over the entire distance. Even among distance runners, very few will have an LT of over 190 which means very few will break 170bpm. 160-170 is the range for almost all marathon runners, how fast they go depends more on the stroke volume of the heart, VO2max, and biomechanical efficiency than anything else. But feel free to keep throwing out words which you don't know the meaning of, nor the context in which they're applied

Was a nice thread with guys wanting to discuss and you polluted it with your negativity, agressivity, arrogance, ignorance and lies.
Lol imagine being 40, having a wife, and starting beef with strangers on Sherdog, what a loser you must be.
Won't answer you anymore

I'm sorry you have thin skin and I called you a fuckface, do you feel better now?

If you want to have an interesting discussion we can talk about training loads, periodization, MMA specific technique training and whether/how running fits into the program. We can then talk about how we would design training blocks that maximize the time spent working on techniques while building the conditioning needed for going 3-5 hard rounds. We can consider the MMA specific benefits of running such as building bone density & muscular endurance in the legs, and if these things can be done in more time efficient ways via alternative methods. You want to talk about that go right ahead, I'm all ears.

 

[Kdup]

Mayweather was big on running and you have NEVER seen him tired in 50 fights which when you think about it is freaking remarkable, never once has he looked remotely tired even in round 12. He dose also do a lot of bag work and various other stuff though which no doubt helps.

I run on the treadmill with running shoes with good cushioning and never had the slightest niggle with any of my joints, running outside has caused niggling pains in the past but on a treadmill the impact for me is non existent. For me running at 130bpm feels like im not doing anything like i can breath through my nose only, i don't feel like i'm getting a good workout until i'm around 150bpm, i usually push 160+ towards the end of run to finish up. i'm a complete casual runner tho and have no real clue what im doing i just get on and run, i only run a couple of miles every other day just because i feel better for it, i'm more into lifting and trying to get swole which its self has a negative effect on cardio, i just run to stay healthy really.

Floyd is a freak of nature, factor that in with his dad teaching him boxing since he was a baby, he was never gonna fail. Then you factor in he can’t even read, the dudes whole entire life is boxing, no grade school, no friends, no nothing besides boxing. No matter how much money he has, he will never know anything but boxing. That is really amazing in itself, but Floyd the man will never be anything but a boxer, he will not be anything else, he knows nothing else and will be looking and making money fights until he is 60. It takes an incredible lifestyle to continue greatness and only few can continue once the money piles up. But Floyd was bred for this.

 

[Bork Neslar]

Go for it

 

[PabloChacon]

Why do I always hear people whining about damaging their knees from running in a discussion about training jits, striking or anything else that is going to damage you in other ways.

Nothing replaces running. You'll know that if you ever do it.

 

[Kdup]

1) Congratulations, you're a google trainer. I've been in the mountain biking world for almost 30 years and my wife was a pretty good swimmer. Either one of us can peg our heart rates at well over 150 for hours. It's not hard.

2) Well you should've said so then shouldn't you? But you didn't because you don't know shit.

3) 220-age is a shitty outdated way of calculating max heart rate, no one who's training seriously uses it. I'm over 40 and my heart rates still maxes out north of 190. Any half serious athlete will do a lactate threshold test to set their training zones. Once you know the LT you set the heart rates for each training zone, and once you've done that you know the pacing required for each zone. Given that your pacing is fairly close to mine, we can infer that your fitness is in the same ballpark as myself. 140bpm is zone 3 which is tempo pace. There's a purpose for it in a structured training program but when you're running in zone 3 all the time it's garbage miles and results in hitting a plateau.

Next, all endurance athletes along with those who are looking to build cardio have structured variances in their training intensity levels. We have easy days where we train at under 70% of LT, bunch of base miles at 70-85% of LT, some tempo miles at 85-95% of LT, and finally some max LT and anaerobic sessions. How much of each you do depends on where you are in your training blocks, but there is no program on Earth where the majority of your time is spent at zone 3 tempo pace. The fact that you think running all the time at "75% of max HR" is actually good training shows that you're a fucking idiot. Even high school kids don't do that when training for track or XC running.

4) Boxing is arguably a more aerobic sport than MMA, but even in MMA the better gyms have figured it out as well. They do not run tempo pace all the time like you did, it generally flips between active recovery/base miles and high intensity threshold training.

Finally, lol at calling me a moron when you've just shown that you know nothing about training. You should be thanking me for dropping all this knowledge on you. You're welcome. Asshat.

Says the guy getting “pegged” by his wife lol.