things I hate about Louis vs Ali debate

[TheGreatA]

ya, that has to be a factor, the extra bulk to absorb shock. What really has people scratching their heads is how the light hitting ali kayoed Sonny Liston. People are still convinced Liston took a dive but even if he did, it doesn't explain how ali was hurting him in the first fight. One thing, there are times, even with known light punchers, when they either land just right or throw with conviction. Who can forget Pernell Whitaker damn near killing Hurtado. Hector Camacho also seemed to accidentally land a perfect uppercut against Chavez which staggered him ever so briefly.

i watched they kayoes of mann and pastor, it wasn't either of them that i was thinking of, don't know who it was i'm thinking of, but they were moving and joe slammed a right on him and put him out.

I don't think Ali ever KO'd Liston. He did drop Liston when Liston was coming in recklessly. But it was a flash knockdown at best.

Liston said he didn't get up because Walcott didn't put Ali in his corner, and I believe him. He claimed that Ali was mad and that he was afraid that Ali would try to punch him while he was trying to get up. Liston by that point was actually intimidated by Ali, who he thought was legitimately crazy. Ali also ran with a dangerous crew of radical Muslims (who were eventually implicated in several killings), which further shook up Liston .

Ali could punch but he rarely set his feet to punch. The one time he did was against Frazier in the first fight, and he was unfortunate to fight the one guy who could take such a consistent beating. Frazier, despite winning, was messed up.

 

[mozfonky]

I don't think Ali ever KO'd Liston. He did drop Liston when Liston was coming in recklessly. But it was a flash knockdown at best.

Liston said he didn't get up because Walcott didn't put Ali in his corner, and I believe him. He claimed that Ali was mad and that he was afraid that Ali would try to punch him while he was trying to get up. Liston by that point was actually intimidated by Ali, who he thought was legitimately crazy. He also ran with a dangerous crew of radical Muslims (who were eventually implicated in several killings), which further shook up Liston.

Ali could punch but he rarely set his feet to punch. The one time he did was against Frazier in the first fight, and he was unfortunate to fight the one guy who could take such a consistent beating. Frazier, despite winning, was messed up.

ya, on both counts, I do think Liston could have gotten up but people still find it hard to believe ali could put him down. Ali hurt him earlier in the round and was measuring him for a right, he also hurt him in the third round of the first fight. People don't believe it though, Liston was said to say to his cornermen after the first fight, in the locker room, "who was that guy? the guy i was suppossed to fight couldn't punch, that guy could punch!".

The Frazier fight saw an Ali who would never hit as hard again. Ali stated later that he fought like that because he knew he fucked off in training and couldn't move for fifteen rounds but I also sense that he'd seen bonavena put Joe down and thought he could do the same. Out of all the changes that Ali went through, the one that changed the most was his kayo power, by the end he couldn't hurt a fly, fringe contenders would get through entire fights unscathed.

 

[TheGreatA]

ya, on both counts, I do think Liston could have gotten up but people still find it hard to believe ali could put him down. Ali hurt him earlier in the round and was measuring him for a right, he also hurt him in the third round of the first fight. People don't believe it though, Liston was said to say to his cornermen after the first fight, in the locker room, "who was that guy? the guy i was suppossed to fight couldn't punch, that guy could punch!".

The Frazier fight saw an Ali who would never hit as hard again. Ali stated later that he fought like that because he knew he fucked off in training and couldn't move for fifteen rounds but I also sense that he'd seen bonavena put Joe down and thought he could do the same. Out of all the changes that Ali went through, the one that changed the most was his kayo power, by the end he couldn't hurt a fly, fringe contenders would get through entire fights unscathed.

Ironically the one other time that Liston lost before Ali, was against crazy Marty Marshall, who was as unorthodox as they come. Liston started laughing at Marshall's antics, and Marshall broke his jaw. So he always had problems with unorthodox, crazy fighters. Despite Liston's reputation, he was really just a pretty basic guy who went about his days training and doing mundane things. He was a textbook boxer. He was affiliated with the mob and an ex-con, but it's not like he was working as a hitman or something. Probably just collected a few debts because he looked intimidating. Being affiliated with the mob in those days, wasn't that exceptional.

Ali's power was completely gone by the end. I think the condition he had started to affect his coordination, he just couldn't produce any kind of power anymore.

Ali landed some left hooks and right hands on Frazier in that first fight which should have probably KO'd him. Bonavena was seen as the ultimate tough guy and those same punches, put him out.