things I hate about Louis vs Ali debate

[defjaam]

I don't think any one of those guys would've been too problematic for Joe. Most of them were not too skilled, or they were under-sized (talking like 5'8-5'9, 180 pounds), or had very weak chins.

The clear thing is that none of them shared any attributes with Ali other than race, quite frankly. A guy like Bob Pastor or Billy Conn was more closer to Ali in style, than any of those guys.

Joe Louis did fight the one black boxer of the era who did resemble Ali stylistically, Jersey Joe Walcott. And he obviously had problems. But he was also older, and he did catch up to Jersey Joe eventually.

It's kind of like when people say that Rocky Marciano avoided Nino Valdes. But then you watch a Nino Valdes fight, and that narrative crumbles pretty quickly. It's obvious he wouldn't have had a chance in hell against the Rock. Archie Moore feasted on him.

You're very educated on that time period. And I think it was a very interesting time in boxing.
They weren't as athletic as boxers in later decades, but the uncertainty (no footage to study for opponents) and stories told about boxers added somewhat of a fear factor. Even when Mike Tyson came around much later, there was no internet at that time, so people didn't know much about him which helped building his mystique.

In this day and age we don't see anyone as fearful and mysterious as Sonny Liston, because we get to know everything about them.

 

[TheGreatA]

You're very educated on that time period. And I think it was a very interesting time in boxing.
They weren't as athletic as boxers in later decades, but the uncertainty (no footage to study for opponents) and stories told about boxers added somewhat of a fear factor. Even when Mike Tyson came around much later, there was no internet at that time, so people didn't know much about him which helped building his mystique.

In this day and age we don't see anyone as fearful and mysterious as Sonny Liston, because we get to know everything about them.

Lem Franklin is a good example.

He's often brought up as a "boogeyman" for Joe Louis, and he did boast a very impressive record for a while, with nearly all of his wins coming by way of KO.

Problem is that by 1942, after he had gotten his ranking, he got KO'd by Bob Pastor, a 180 pound guy who was one of Louis's smallest opponents. One of the so-called "bums" that Louis faced (in fact a very crafty and capable fighter).

Shortly after, he ended up being KO'd 5 more times, and then, fatally, for the last time. Some of those KO's being against men who were also counted among Louis's "bums".

There was never really a time window for Louis to face him. And with his notoriously weak chin, cracked by Pastor (who was 30 pounds smaller than Louis), there's not a chance in hell he would've posed any sort of danger to Louis, who if nothing else was a great puncher.

When you examine their records, some of the shine is taken off of these guys. Elmer Ray is another good example. He only fought about 2-3 live bodies throughout his whole career, never decisively beating any of them (although him matching up to Charles and Walcott is a feat enough in itself). Great gimmick (the "Violent" nickname, the rumours of him being an alligator wrestler), great record (padded mostly against regional fighters), obviously a very tough individual, but the man to beat Joe Louis? I doubt it. The 5'9 Turkey Thompson knocked him the hell out in the first round.

People call Abe Simon and Buddy Baer bums, but atleast they were huge and had some legitimate wins in their records. Joe Louis fighting the 5'9 Turkey Thompson, would've looked like a man bullying a child. There was no spectacle to Louis fighting somebody like that.

 

[sweetviolenturg]

Lem Franklin is a good example.

He's often brought up as a "boogeyman" for Joe Louis, and he did boast a very impressive record for a while, with nearly all of his wins coming by way of KO.

Problem is that by 1942, after he had gotten his ranking, he got KO'd by Bob Pastor, a 180 pound guy who was one of Louis's smallest opponents. One of the so-called "bums" that Louis faced (in fact a very crafty and capable fighter).

Shortly after, he ended up being KO'd 5 more times, and then, fatally, for the last time. Some of those KO's being against men who were also counted among Louis's "bums".

There was never really a time window for Louis to face him. And with his notoriously weak chin, cracked by Pastor (who was 30 pounds smaller than Louis), there's not a chance in hell he would've posed any sort of danger to Louis, who if nothing else was a great puncher.

When you examine their records, some of the shine is taken off of these guys. Elmer Ray is another good example. He only fought about 2-3 live bodies throughout his whole career, never decisively beating any of them (although him matching up to Charles and Walcott is a feat enough in itself). Great gimmick (the "Violent" nickname, the rumours of him being an alligator wrestler), great record (padded mostly against regional fighters), obviously a very tough individual, but the man to beat Joe Louis? I doubt it. The 5'9 Turkey Thompson knocked him the hell out in the first round.

People call Abe Simon and Buddy Baer bums, but atleast they were huge and had some legitimate wins in their records. Joe Louis fighting the 5'9 Turkey Thompson, would've looked like a man bullying a child. There was no spectacle to Louis fighting somebody like that.

While I don't agree with all of them, you make some interesting, solid points. And I admire your knowledge of that era. I don't mind admitting that my own has some holes in it.

However, when it comes to Turkey Thompson I feel compelled to counter with Tony Galento. Surely if Galento was deemed worthy of a title shot then Thompson should have been as well. Although listed at 5'9", by many accounts Galento was only 5'8". So if we're judging by their height then Thompson was even more worthy than Galento. And while Galento was a more active fighter than Thompson was, I believe that Thompson's credentials were equal to or better than Galento's.

 

[TheGreatA]

While I don't agree with all of them, you make some interesting, solid points. And I admire your knowledge of that era. I don't mind admitting that my own has some holes in it.

However, when it comes to Turkey Thompson I feel compelled to counter with Tony Galento. Surely if Galento was deemed worthy of a title shot then Thompson should have been as well. Although listed at 5'9", by many accounts Galento was only 5'8". So if we're judging by their height then Thompson was even more worthy than Galento. And while Galento was a more active fighter than Thompson was, I believe that Thompson's credentials were equal to or better than Galento's.

Galento wouldn't have gotten a shot if he didn't upset Lou Nova, who was the top contender at the time. Because of that win, Galento was actually given the #1 ranking. Questionable logic I suppose, but that was the way it was. If you beat the top guy, even if you were a journeyman, you became the top guy. And while he was short, he was a burly 230-240 pounds, so he did hold a weight advantage. He was also charismatic and talked a ton of trash about Louis, which sold the fight to the public.

Thompson never managed to score a win of that caliber. He managed to climb to the top 3, but this was when Louis went off to the army. So he was screwed by bad timing in that regard. His best years were during Louis's absence. He also rose to top 3 by the end of the 1940's, but Louis was no longer the champion at that time.

 

[sweetviolenturg]

Galento wouldn't have gotten a shot if he didn't upset Lou Nova, who was the top contender at the time. Because of that win, Galento was actually given the #1 ranking. Questionable logic I suppose, but that was the way it was. If you beat the top guy, even if you were a journeyman, you became the top guy. And while he was short, he was a burly 230-240 pounds, so he did hold a weight advantage. He was also charismatic and talked a ton of trash about Louis, which sold the fight to the public.

Thompson never managed to score a win of that caliber. He managed to climb to the top 3, but this was when Louis went off to the army. So he was screwed by bad timing in that regard. His best years were during Louis's absence. He also rose to top 3 by the end of the 1940's, but Louis was no longer the champion at that time.

A lot of people make that mistake when discussing Galento's career & his title shot vs Louis. But actually, Galento fought Louis about three months before he upset Lou Nova. He fought Louis in June of '39 & then he beat Nova in September of that year.

But good points on the timing of Thompson's best wins. 1943 would have been the perfect time for him to have fought Louis but, of course, that wasn't to be because of the war.

 

[Absolut]

Just gotta say, this is an epic thread in terms of combining knowledge, debate and respect.
Well done gentlemen.

 

[TheGreatA]

A lot of people make that mistake when discussing Galento's career & his title shot vs Louis. But actually, Galento fought Louis about three months before he upset Lou Nova. He fought Louis in June of '39 & then he beat Nova in September of that year.

But good points on the timing of Thompson's best wins. 1943 would have been the perfect time for him to have fought Louis but, of course, that wasn't to be because of the war.

True, got it mixed up. He was still hovering around top 4-5 in the division when he fought Louis though.

The point I made about Thompson's height is because when Louis fought guys like Galento, Buddy Baer, Abe Simon, the "bums", it's usually because there was some sort of spectacle to fighting them. Galento was very well-known to the public for his antics, and Baer/Simon were just huge. There was money in seeing Louis chop down a guy who weighed 260 pounds. The rematches with those guys were also done just for charity, and Louis wasn't paid a penny for it.

Fighting Thompson just wouldn't have been a drawing card. And he never reached the position of a top contender, at a time when Louis was active.

Elmer Ray, with his "gimmick", his intimidating nickname, style and look, was in a better position to get the fight. But he fumbled on his rematches with Walcott and Charles, who ended up getting the shots instead.

The fact is, when there was a clear black top contender to fight, like Jersey Joe Walcott, Louis did fight him. And Walcott was all wrong for him as a match-up, he was the epitome of "slick". So I don't think it was a matter of avoiding fights. Nobody at that time thought that Louis could be beat.

 

[sweetviolenturg]

True, got it mixed up. He was still hovering around top 4-5 in the division when he fought Louis though.

The point I made about Thompson's height is because when Louis fought guys like Galento, Buddy Baer, Abe Simon, the "bums", it's usually because there was some sort of spectacle to fighting them. Galento was very well-known to the public for his antics, and Baer/Simon were just huge. There was money in seeing Louis chop down a guy who weighed 260 pounds. The rematches with those guys were also done just for charity, and Louis wasn't paid a penny for it.

Fighting Thompson just wouldn't have been a drawing card. And he never reached the position of a top contender, at a time when Louis was active.

Elmer Ray, with his "gimmick", his intimidating nickname, style and look, was in a better position to get the fight. But he fumbled on his rematches with Walcott and Charles, who ended up getting the shots instead.

The fact is, when there was a clear black top contender to fight, like Jersey Joe Walcott, Louis did fight him. And Walcott was all wrong for him as a match-up. So I don't think it was a matter of avoiding fights. Nobody at that time thought that Louis could be beat.

Again, solid points. Looking over the records of the top black contenders of the day who have been most mentioned as being avoided by Louis I can see that a lot of it was due to bad timing, losses suffered at inopportune times & as you said, the fighters who did get title shots were just more attractive challengers to both the promoters & the public.

 

[TheGreatA]

Again, solid points. Looking over the records of the top black contenders of the day who have been most mentioned as being avoided by Louis I can see that a lot of it was due to bad timing, losses suffered at inopportune times & as you said, the fighters who did get title shots were just more attractive challengers to both the promoters & the public.

The guys who truly got screwed, in my estimation, were the Murderers Row. A lot of all-time greats there, also screwed by bad timing and possibly racial politics.

The mid-1940s heavyweights were an interesting, almost "lost era" in a sense, since there's very little footage of the fighters involved. And the champion was absent. But based on what I've gathered, to say that Louis was ducking these fighters is probably a stretch. Louis had a Tyson/Liston-like aura at the time, and people seriously didn't think that he could be beaten.

Looking back, you would think that Jersey Joe Walcott was the absolute worst match-up that an aging Louis could face, at the time. But Louis was a 10-to-1 betting favorite. Nobody thought that Walcott had a chance in hell.

 

[Ancient Warrior]

I wouldn't consider myself a low-knowledge boxing fan, and I still think it's a mismatch in Ali's favor. Louis's power wouldn't be an issue for the iron-chinned Ali, as it was for most others.

Then again, I think Ali post-liston pre-ban is a mismatch for most great heavyweights.

I agree with this.

Honestly, I think Louis was a much more complete fighter, but I believe Ali’s intangibles would overcome him every time.

 

[Badr Hari]

@TheGreatA

Are you the great A guy from youtube? Not surprised with your deep knowledge of that era. Only I disagree about Bob Pastor ever being considered a "bum" even against Louis. Bob was a handsome mofo who was tough as nails and had been a legit top contender before both fights with Louis.

 

[TheGreatA]

@TheGreatA

Are you the great A guy from youtube? Not surprised with your deep knowledge of that era. Only I disagree about Bob Pastor ever being considered a "bum" even against Louis. Bob was a handsome mofo who was tough as nails and had been a legit top contender before both fights with Louis.

Yes. I didn't say Bob Pastor was considered a bum, I'm saying that nowadays people treat him as one of the "bums". Even though in his day he was a very respected fighter. And he beat a lot of the black fighters that Louis supposedly avoided, like Lem Franklin and Turkey Thompson.

 

[mozfonky]

good info on the older guys GreatA. I've always meant to watch all of joes filmed fights that I could, never do though. I know it takes more than docus and highlights to really get a feel for fighters. Bob looked lanky and ungainly in the kayo clip I've seen, I doubt I've seen the entire fight.

One thing about Joe that I'm sure Ali would notice, (futch did and he used it in sparring) is that he only threw punches with so much length and arch to them, beautiful to see, very powerful and effective but if you know that if you stay at a certain range, he can't throw anything, it's a weakness. Ali would have done just that as much as he could have. I've never really seen Joe hunt down anyone, he didn't seem to be the stalker, chasing type. He was a guy who did his work with his opponent right in front of him. I've seen vids that claim to disprove that but I'm not convinced. We've never seen joe do the kind of raw chasing that hagler did to hearns when he had him hurt, it don't look professional but a great pro knows when and how and why to stray away from the fundamentals. Joe was too mechanical to do that. Ironically, Dempsey and Marciano might do better with the Ali of the Cleveland Williams fight.

 

[TheGreatA]

good info on the older guys GreatA. I've always meant to watch all of joes filmed fights that I could, never do though. I know it takes more than docus and highlights to really get a feel for fighters. Bob looked lanky and ungainly in the kayo clip I've seen, I doubt I've seen the entire fight.

Bob Pastor? He was more of a stocky, shorter guy who was fast on his feet.

Pastor KOing Franklin:

One thing about Joe that I'm sure Ali would notice, (futch did and he used it in sparring) is that he only threw punches with so much length and arch to them, beautiful to see, very powerful and effective but if you know that if you stay at a certain range, he can't throw anything, it's a weakness. Ali would have done just that as much as he could have. I've never really seen Joe hunt down anyone, he didn't seem to be the stalker, chasing type. He was a guy who did his work with his opponent right in front of him. I've seen vids that claim to disprove that but I'm not convinced. We've never seen joe do the kind of raw chasing that hagler did to hearns when he had him hurt, it don't look professional but a great pro knows when and how and why to stray away from the fundamentals. Joe was too mechanical to do that. Ironically, Dempsey and Marciano might do better with the Ali of the Cleveland Williams fight.

You're right that it wasn't Louis's style to chase people down, but you're under-selling how good he was at countering. Unlike Liston, who wasn't much of a counter-puncher at all, he wouldn't have been in such a dire need to chase Ali down, because he could actually counter his jab and right hand. Like even Doug Jones and Henry Cooper did, to a degree.

Even against Walcott, even though his reflexes and speed were diminished, he remained a threat because he could counter Walcott at any time.

Walcott started to get a little too relaxed here and got caught:



Zora Folley did alright with Ali (at his absolute peak in 1967) even though he was old, slow and had a very weak chin by that point, mostly because he was a good technician and counter-puncher:



The judges actually had the fight roughly even at the time of the KO. Folley was probably the closest thing to a Joe Louis that Ali faced, but he was old, had a weak chin (so weak in fact that a lot of people thought he was diving) and didn't have much power. Stylistically he had patterned himself after Joe Louis.

 

[mozfonky]

Bob Pastor? He was more of a stocky, shorter guy who was fast on his feet.



You're right that it wasn't Louis's style to chase people down, but you're under-selling how good he was at countering. Unlike Liston, who wasn't much of a counter-puncher at all, he wouldn't have been in such a dire need to chase Ali down, because he could actually counter his jab and right hand. Like even Doug Jones and Henry Cooper did, to a degree.

Even against Walcott, even though his reflexes and speed were diminished, he remained a threat because he could counter Walcott at any time.

Walcott started to get a little too relaxed here and got caught:




Zora Folley did alright with Ali even though he was old, slow and had a very weak chin by that point, mostly because he was a good technician and counter-puncher:

folley did better than he should have, Ali looked a little flat in that one, who could blame him, he had a lot on his heavyweight shoulders at the time. Folley wrote a letter calling ali the best heavyweight ever, you've probably seen it. Folley was amongst a crop of older, really good fighters that even ali admitted in his bio could have beaten him on a good night.

as far as bob pastor, i'll take another look, he looked spindly from what i recall,maybe that was just in relation to Joe. Or maybe i'm just thinking of someone else.

 

[mozfonky]

Joe certainly could hurt Ali and probably would, the question is how would he finish him? Funny thing about Ali is that he was visibly hurt just about more than any top heavyweight I can think of, and by guys who shouldn't have hurt him. Hell, even Tommy Hearns staggered Ali in a late sparring match. Now, that may not seem a big deal to some but in a world where our best fighter, mayweather, gets people on his feet cheering against him when he gets staggered, it offers some perspective on how times have changed. The comp was different and Ali lost his legs, those two factors equal trouble. But Ali had the will and heart to pull him through every time. His only kayo loss, as we know, wasn't really a kayo but a fight where he was already a sick man against a prime atg heavyweight.

 

[TheGreatA]

folley did better than he should have, Ali looked a little flat in that one, who could blame him, he had a lot on his heavyweight shoulders at the time. Folley wrote a letter calling ali the best heavyweight ever, you've probably seen it. Folley was amongst a crop of older, really good fighters that even ali admitted in his bio could have beaten him on a good night.

Folley was good. But his chin and his will to win were pretty questionable at times. I don't think he could have ever pushed himself far enough to seriously threaten Ali.

as far as bob pastor, i'll take another look, he looked spindly from what i recall,maybe that was just in relation to Joe. Or maybe i'm just thinking of someone else.

Billy Conn maybe. Louis fought a lot of white dudes who looked the same. Al Ettore, Nathan Mann, Harry Thomas, etc. It's easy to mix them up.

This is Louis's KO of Pastor:



Even in that short sequence, Louis deflects Pastor's jab, picks off his protecting glove and counters with a huge right hand. He did a lot of little things that go unappreciated due to poor quality of footage.

Joe certainly could hurt Ali and probably would, the question is how would he finish him? Funny thing about Ali is that he was visibly hurt just about more than any top heavyweight I can think of, and by guys who shouldn't have hurt him. Hell, even Tommy Hearns staggered Ali in a late sparring match. Now, that may not seem a big deal to some but in a world where our best fighter, mayweather, gets people on his feet cheering against him when he gets staggered, it offers some perspective on how times have changed. The comp was different and Ali lost his legs, those two factors equal trouble. But Ali had the will and heart to pull him through every time. His only kayo loss, as we know, wasn't really a kayo but a fight where he was already a sick man against a prime atg heavyweight.

Ali had a tendency to play possum too, acting like he was more hurt than he was. Sometimes he was probably hurt a lot (like against Shavers), but his antics may have actually discouraged the other guy from following up, thinking that he was just playing around and trying to set them up.

The thing is we're not 100% sure if the Ali of the 1960's was as tough as the Ali of 1970's. By the 70's, Ali literally "trained" himself to become more durable by taking huge beatings in sparring sessions. Whereas in the 60's he relied on elusiveness.

Foreman in the 90's was like a tank but in the 70's he could be hurt. Sometimes a fighter's durability increases over time, although it's rare. It's hard to see a 1970's Ali being knocked down by Henry Cooper.

 

[mozfonky]

Folley was good. But his chin and his will to win were pretty questionable at times. I don't think he could have ever pushed himself far enough to seriously threaten Ali.



Billy Conn maybe. Louis fought a lot of white dudes who looked the same. Al Ettore, Nathan Mann, Harry Thomas, etc. It's easy to mix them up.

This is Louis's KO of Pastor:





Ali had a tendency to play possum too, acting like he was more hurt than he was. Sometimes he was probably hurt a lot (like against Shavers), but his antics may have actually discouraged the other guy from following up, thinking that he was just playing around and trying to set them up.

The thing is we're not 100% sure if the Ali of the 1960's was as tough as the Ali of 1970's. By the 70's, Ali literally "trained" himself to become more durable by taking huge beatings in sparring sessions. Whereas in the 60's he relied on elusiveness.

Foreman in the 90's was like a tank but in the 70's he could be hurt. Sometimes a fighter's durability increases over time, although it's rare. It's hard to see a 1970's Ali being knocked down by Henry Cooper.

yes, it is hard to see, no one has ever satisfactorily answered that question, not with ali or with other fighters. I recall seeing the pillow fisted Howard Davis put Edwin Rosario near to his haunches with a right, Rosario was never put down even when he was getting killed.

As far as conn, no, i know it wasn't him, i've probably watched that full fight. might be nathan mann, i'll take a look.

Ali did con guys but he did it when he was hurt and when he wasn't, he could barely stand against frazier in the eleventh and he still horsed around like that, Eddie Futch coined that "the long march" because Joe paused and didn't follow up thinking it was a trap but also because good fighters know when a man is hurt he is most dangerous.

 

[TheGreatA]

yes, it is hard to see, no one has ever satisfactorily answered that question, not with ali or with other fighters. I recall seeing the pillow fisted Howard Davis put Edwin Rosario near to his haunches with a right, Rosario was never put down even when he was getting killed.

As far as conn, no, i know it wasn't him, i've probably watched that full fight. might be nathan mann, i'll take a look.

Ali did con guys but he did it when he was hurt and when he wasn't, he could barely stand against frazier in the eleventh and he still horsed around like that, Eddie Futch coined that "the long march" because Joe paused and didn't follow up thinking it was a trap but also because good fighters know when a man is hurt he is most dangerous.

Probably the most comical KO of Louis's was over Johnny Paychek. He was one guy who looked like he just didn't belong in there with Louis. It was literally just a paycheck for Joe, an easy night's work. Paychek looked like a guy trapped in a cage with a tiger.



Ali was a pretty big guy by the 1970s. He was training down from 230s and 240s. I think his sheer physical size just made him more durable than what he was earlier on in his career.

The Cooper left hook probably wouldn't have registered on the Ali who fought Frazier in Manila.

 

[mozfonky]

Probably the most comical KO of Louis's was over Johnny Paychek. He was one guy who looked like he just didn't belong in there with Louis. It was literally just a paycheck for Joe, an easy night's work. Paychek looked like a guy trapped in a cage with a tiger.



Ali was a pretty big guy by the 1970s. He was training down from 230s and 240s. I think his sheer physical size just made him more durable than what he was earlier on in his career.

ya, that has to be a factor, the extra bulk to absorb shock. What really has people scratching their heads is how the light hitting ali kayoed Sonny Liston. People are still convinced Liston took a dive but even if he did, it doesn't explain how ali was hurting him in the first fight. One thing, there are times, even with known light punchers, when they either land just right or throw with conviction. Who can forget Pernell Whitaker damn near killing Hurtado. Hector Camacho also seemed to accidentally land a perfect uppercut against Chavez which staggered him ever so briefly.

i watched they kayoes of mann and pastor, it wasn't either of them that i was thinking of, don't know who it was i'm thinking of, but they were moving and joe slammed a right on him and put him out.

Edit, I think that might be the one i'm thinking of.