things I hate about Louis vs Ali debate

[Ivancho]

I think Cassius clay Aka Ali vs Louis is the most interesting boxing phantasy match up of all time. Two of the very best boxers of all time. But some fans with little knowledge says this is a complete mismatch.
1- People always complain about different eras can't be compared but the fact is that Louis and Ali era's were very close. Louis last fight was in late 1951, Ali started in 1960 only 9 YEARS LATER
2- Ali competition was superior to Louis, yeah but its not Louis fault
3- Some People say Ali was too big for louis and that's wrong Both guys had similar frames Ali was only an inch taller, and 5-10 pounds heavier in his prime. In fact Ali faced many guys that were way smaller than a young Joe Louis

In my mind Ali has the edge in this fight because his superior footwork but Louis could absolutely win.
It would be very competitive ... 24 years old Ali the same who destroyed Cleveland williams vs 24 years old Joe louis who knocked Schmelling in their second bout

 

[Cariñito]

I think Cassius clay Aka Ali vs Louis is the most interesting boxing phantasy match up of all time. Two of the very best boxers of all time. But some fans with little knowledge says this is a complete mismatch.
1- People always complain abouy different eras can't be compared but the fact is that Louis and Ali era's are very close. Louis last fight was in late 1951, Ali started in 1960 only 9 YEARS LATER
2- Ali competition was superior to Louis, yeah but its not Louis fault
3- Some People say Ali was too big for louis and that's wrong Both guys have similar frames Ali was only an inch taller, and 5-10 pounds heavier in his prime. In fact Ali faced many guys that were way smaller than a young Joe Louis

In my mind Ali has the edge in this fight because his superior footwork but Louis could absolutely win.
It would be very competitive ... 24 years old Ali the same who destroyed old Cleveland williams vs 24 years old Joe louis who knocked Schmelling in their second bout

They would fight twice and split 1-1.
Opposite styles. For one was fleet of foot and moving around constantly while the other took small little steps but had a stance and balance ready to fire off in any scenario. It would be up to the day of the week.

 

[Rudeboyben84]

Always thought Louis advantage lay in being a bigger puncher. If Ali didn’t have a cast iron jaw I would back Louis. Ali could withstand a near death beating and keep fighting. It’s his chin and his heart that is back Ali for. Think he sees the final bell and get a points win. People always remember the speed of Ali and the footwork but his toughness was insane.

 

[djacobox372]

I wouldn't consider myself a low-knowledge boxing fan, and I still think it's a mismatch in Ali's favor. Louis's power wouldn't be an issue for the iron-chinned Ali, as it was for most others.

Then again, I think Ali post-liston pre-ban is a mismatch for most great heavyweights.

 

[Kforcer]

Always thought Louis advantage lay in being a bigger puncher. If Ali didn’t have a cast iron jaw I would back Louis. Ali could withstand a near death beating and keep fighting. It’s his chin and his heart that is back Ali for. Think he sees the final bell and get a points win. People always remember the speed of Ali and the footwork but his toughness was insane.

It was insane but so was Louis's power and most of all, his finishing.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

I think Cassius clay Aka Ali vs Louis is the most interesting boxing phantasy match up of all time. Two of the very best boxers of all time. But some fans with little knowledge says this is a complete mismatch.
1- People always complain about different eras can't be compared but the fact is that Louis and Ali era's were very close. Louis last fight was in late 1951, Ali started in 1960 only 9 YEARS LATER
2- Ali competition was superior to Louis, yeah but its not Louis fault
3- Some People say Ali was too big for louis and that's wrong Both guys had similar frames Ali was only an inch taller, and 5-10 pounds heavier in his prime. In fact Ali faced many guys that were way smaller than a young Joe Louis

In my mind Ali has the edge in this fight because his superior footwork but Louis could absolutely win.
It would be very competitive ... 24 years old Ali the same who destroyed old Cleveland williams vs 24 years old Joe louis who knocked Schmelling in their second bout

i gave you a like for pinpointing their peaks so well.

Im gonna give my theory on Ali, and who might actually beat a prime Ali.... and then everyone can ridicule me.

When Ali was old and fat and could no longer dance all fight, and had nowhere near the output, he lost, imo, a fight to Jimmy Young. I accept that he wouldve danced all around Young and beat him easy in his prime, but it suggested to me the ONE flaw in Ali’s game - He could be out point-fought and didnt have the one punch power to change the course of a fight. This makes him quite rare in the upper echelon of fighters. Nearly all of the other true greats had insane power, and made it to the top due to the fact that nobody could take their power/slash avoid taking it for fifteen rounds.

So, when we think of Ali’s great opponents, they are nearly all sluggers, and he was custom built to beat them. He could go for 15 rounds at a pace that nobody could come close to, his chin and heart were nearly unmatched, and his speed was entirely unmatched. He wore those big hitters down and there was nothing they could do about it. On top of that, every big hitter is built to sprint, and not for the duration, and they arent used to someone disregarding their power so easily. Ali was perfect for beating -Louis, Foreman, Frazier (a little less so) Tyson, Marciano (again, like Frazier, he could def go the distance, but he would get danced all over), Liston, Dempsey, Bowe, Lennox (im not too sure on Lennox) etc.

The guys I would think a prime Ali would have a harder time against would be the guys who might actually outbox him - Holmes, Holyfield, Fury, hell, id bet Chris Byrd would give him an awkward fight.... im not saying he would beat him, but he is a bad style match.... and i think Wlad, who probably gets his block knocked off if matched against the heavy hitting legends, would not have to worry about big concussive power coming back at him from Ali, had the height, similar reach i think... and technically, was a better boxer. Again, not saying he beats Ali, but that he is a tough tough match and a lesser name legend.

Its not just about eras or resumes, but styles. I think that Ali was built to dominate Louis (id NEVER count someone like Louis out) and built to be given trouble by lesser legends.

 

[Ivancho]

i gave you a like for pinpointing their peaks so well.

Im gonna give my theory on Ali, and who might actually beat a prime Ali.... and then everyone can ridicule me.

When Ali was old and fat and could no longer dance all fight, and had nowhere near the output, he lost, imo, a fight to Jimmy Young. I accept that he wouldve danced all around Young and beat him easy in his prime, but it suggested to me the ONE flaw in Ali’s game - He could be out point-fought and didnt have the one punch power to change the course of a fight. This makes him quite rare in the upper echelon of fighters. Nearly all of the other true greats had insane power, and made it to the top due to the fact that nobody could take their power/slash avoid taking it for fifteen rounds.

So, when we think of Ali’s great opponents, they are nearly all sluggers, and he was custom built to beat them. He could go for 15 rounds at a pace that nobody could come close to, his chin and heart were nearly unmatched, and his speed was entirely unmatched. He wore those big hitters down and there was nothing they could do about it. On top of that, every big hitter is built to sprint, and not for the duration, and they arent used to someone disregarding their power so easily. Ali was perfect for beating -Louis, Foreman, Frazier (a little less so) Tyson, Marciano (again, like Frazier, he could def go the distance, but he would get danced all over), Liston, Dempsey, Bowe, Lennox (im not too sure on Lennox) etc.

The guys I would think a prime Ali would have a harder time against would be the guys who might actually outbox him - Holmes, Holyfield, Fury, hell, id bet Chris Byrd would give him an awkward fight.... im not saying he would beat him, but he is a bad style match.... and i think Wlad, who probably gets his block knocked off if matched against the heavy hitting legends, would not have to worry about big concussive power coming back at him from Ali, had the height, similar reach i think... and technically, was a better boxer. Again, not saying he beats Ali, but that he is a tough tough match and a lesser name legend.

Its not just about eras or resumes, but styles. I think that Ali was built to dominate Louis (id NEVER count someone like Louis out) and built to be given trouble by lesser legends.

I respect your opinion,you made a pretty good case with those examples. Ali is considered the best HW of all time but in this sport nobody is invincible. }Holmes would give trouble to every version of ali also some fast and agile heavy hitters like holyfield or lennox

 

[Hagler]

You had to outwork Ali to get him in trouble. I don’t see Louis doing so. He may catch Ali a few times out of 10 fights, but then again Ali wasn’t exactly easy to put to sleep. I think Ali wins this more often than not.

 

[mozfonky]

i don't look at things in the light the op does, times do change, athletes change, I respect the men with the context they fought in, simple. Dempsey probably wouldn't be in the top five of all heavyweight champs but he was absolutely one of the most important figures ever in the sport. And Loui might not be able to do a thing with Ali, seeing some of the guys louis fought for defenses, it was a pretty pathetic division for a great champion to rule over. Ali's sixties defenses weren't a whole lot better but he answered the leftover questions in the seventies. I'm just not sure if Joe could do enough damage with his shuffling movement, put two guys from different eras together and it might be a shock one way or the other though.

 

[TheGreatA]

It's weird that people bring the argument that Ali was "bigger" than Louis. Obviously he was older and heavier, but in every picture with Ali and Louis, Louis looked as big or even bigger.

Ali at best had ½-1 inch height advantage, and about 5 pounds on Louis (prime weight). A negligible difference. But in Louis's day they used to train down to the minimal weight, almost like they were doing a weight cut. He had the frame to carry 210 pounds, as he did during the latter years of his prime, being about 208 against Baer and Simon.

If Ali wins, it wouldn't be due to size.

 

[TheGreatA]

Joe Louis in his prime:

Ali in his prime:

 

[sweetviolenturg]

It's clear to me that Louis was steered clear of some of the better black contenders of his era & instead defended against a continuous array of limited white challengers who formed his "Bum of the month" club. I'm sorry but you can't tell me that the likes of Johnny Paychek, Gus Dorazio & Red Burman were superior contenders to & more deserving of title opportunities than fighters like Elmer "Violent" Ray, Lee Q Murray & Lem Franklin. Hell, even Turkey Thompson was more deserving. But none of those men were even considered for a championship opportunity against "The Brown Bomber". In fact, of all of the Louis pre-war challengers, only light heavyweight John Henry Lewis was deemed a safe enough black opponent. And he was compromised going into his fight with Louis.

It wasn't until after WWII that Louis defended against a worthy black fighter in Jersey Joe Wolcott & he only managed to hold onto his title via a very dubious decision. Sure, Louis KO'd Wolcott in the rematch but the fact remains that he should have lost their first fight. Louis then retired only to return two years later & was nearly shut out by the next fighter of color that he faced in Ezzard Charles while attempting to regain the title.

Where am I going with all this? Just that I don't believe that Louis was quite the all-time great that most recall him as. He was protected from a lot of slick boxers & fierce punchers by his managers & promoters. With Billy Conn viewed as just another "Bum of the Month" until he totally outboxed & rocked Louis in their first fight until getting KO'd while attempting to stand & trade with the champion.

Surely, if a 174 lb Conn could befuddle Louis with his footwork & movement for 12 rounds then Ali could have done so for 15. And that's without taking into account Ali's far superior edge in hand speed & his own KO power. I say at their very bests, Ali stops Louis in about 11 rounds.

 

[Badr Hari]

It's clear to me that Louis was steered clear of some of the better black contenders of his era & instead defended against a continuous array of limited white challengers who formed his "Bum of the month" club. I'm sorry but you can't tell me that the likes of Johnny Paychek, Gus Dorazio & Red Burman were superior contenders to & more deserving of title opportunities than fighters like Elmer "Violent" Ray, Lee Q Murray & Lem Franklin. Hell, even Turkey Thompson was more deserving. But none of those men were even considered for a championship opportunity against "The Brown Bomber". In fact, of all of the Louis pre-war challengers, only light heavyweight John Henry Lewis was deemed a safe enough black opponent. And he was compromised going into his fight with Louis.

It wasn't until after WWII that Louis defended against a worthy black fighter in Jersey Joe Wolcott & he only managed to hold onto his title via a very dubious decision. Sure, Louis KO'd Wolcott in the rematch but the fact remains that he should have lost their first fight. Louis then retired only to return two years later & was nearly shut out by the next fighter of color that he faced in Ezzard Charles while attempting to regain the title.

Where am I going with all this? Just that I don't believe that Louis was quite the all-time great that most recall him as. He was protected from a lot of slick boxers & fierce punchers by his managers & promoters. With Billy Conn viewed as just another "Bum of the Month" until he totally outboxed & rocked Louis in their first fight until getting KO'd while attempting to stand & trade with the champion.

Surely, if a 174 lb Conn could befuddle Louis with his footwork & movement for 12 rounds then Ali could have done so for 15. And that's without taking into account Ali's far superior edge in hand speed & his own KO power. I say at their very bests, Ali stops Louis in about 11 rounds.

That is simply not true. Louis wasn't protected from absolutely nobody. The black contenders at the time were simply not good enough to be given a title shot, most of them didn't even fight at HW. And no, Walcott should have never won that fight, Louis was the rightful winner in that fight. Was nearly shut out by Ezzard Charles? Wtf I have seen all 15 rounds of that fight, it was close and actually could have gone either way if you watch it with your eyes without reading the newspapers. And btw Billy Conn was never viewed as "bum of the month". He was viewed as a threat because people knew he was a living legend for what he had accomplished. Now if you want to say Ali stops Louis in 11 you have every right to say that as Ali has proven himself of what he is capable of but there is no need to bash Louis' resume.

 

[TheGreatA]

It's clear to me that Louis was steered clear of some of the better black contenders of his era & instead defended against a continuous array of limited white challengers who formed his "Bum of the month" club. I'm sorry but you can't tell me that the likes of Johnny Paychek, Gus Dorazio & Red Burman were superior contenders to & more deserving of title opportunities than fighters like Elmer "Violent" Ray, Lee Q Murray & Lem Franklin. Hell, even Turkey Thompson was more deserving. But none of those men were even considered for a championship opportunity against "The Brown Bomber". In fact, of all of the Louis pre-war challengers, only light heavyweight John Henry Lewis was deemed a safe enough black opponent. And he was compromised going into his fight with Louis.

It wasn't until after WWII that Louis defended against a worthy black fighter in Jersey Joe Wolcott & he only managed to hold onto his title via a very dubious decision. Sure, Louis KO'd Wolcott in the rematch but the fact remains that he should have lost their first fight. Louis then retired only to return two years later & was nearly shut out by the next fighter of color that he faced in Ezzard Charles while attempting to regain the title.

Where am I going with all this? Just that I don't believe that Louis was quite the all-time great that most recall him as. He was protected from a lot of slick boxers & fierce punchers by his managers & promoters. With Billy Conn viewed as just another "Bum of the Month" until he totally outboxed & rocked Louis in their first fight until getting KO'd while attempting to stand & trade with the champion.

Surely, if a 174 lb Conn could befuddle Louis with his footwork & movement for 12 rounds then Ali could have done so for 15. And that's without taking into account Ali's far superior edge in hand speed & his own KO power. I say at their very bests, Ali stops Louis in about 11 rounds.

Louis sparred and fought a lot of those guys in exhibitions though (which really, were just fights). And as the accounts have it, he got the better of them. Black vs black HW championship fights just weren't popular at the time, unfortunately, for reasons that had nothing to do with Louis. Another thing that ought to be remembered is that most of those guys came to prominence during the time that Louis spent in the army. And by the time he came back, those guys' careers were already basically finished. They weren't around at the same time when Louis was at his most active and fought most of his "bums".

For example, he KTFO Elmer Ray in an exhibition. Badly. And Elmer Ray's record was hugely padded. He was a massive can crusher. Jersey Joe Walcott was the best of them, the others faded out quickly.

It wasn't a particularly strong era for African-American heavyweights. A lot of those "limited" white challengers, beat the African-American contenders. Turkey Thompson was only 5'9, and he got beat by Bob Pastor and others. None of them were exactly "slick" boxers either, they were mostly unskilled brawlers, and beating them wouldn't have proven a damn thing for Louis in regards to an Ali match-up, except for the fact that he can beat guys who have the same color of skin as Ali.

 

[defjaam]

It's clear to me that Louis was steered clear of some of the better black contenders of his era & instead defended against a continuous array of limited white challengers who formed his "Bum of the month" club. I'm sorry but you can't tell me that the likes of Johnny Paychek, Gus Dorazio & Red Burman were superior contenders to & more deserving of title opportunities than fighters like Elmer "Violent" Ray, Lee Q Murray & Lem Franklin. Hell, even Turkey Thompson was more deserving. But none of those men were even considered for a championship opportunity against "The Brown Bomber". In fact, of all of the Louis pre-war challengers, only light heavyweight John Henry Lewis was deemed a safe enough black opponent. And he was compromised going into his fight with Louis.

It wasn't until after WWII that Louis defended against a worthy black fighter in Jersey Joe Wolcott & he only managed to hold onto his title via a very dubious decision. Sure, Louis KO'd Wolcott in the rematch but the fact remains that he should have lost their first fight. Louis then retired only to return two years later & was nearly shut out by the next fighter of color that he faced in Ezzard Charles while attempting to regain the title.

Where am I going with all this? Just that I don't believe that Louis was quite the all-time great that most recall him as. He was protected from a lot of slick boxers & fierce punchers by his managers & promoters. With Billy Conn viewed as just another "Bum of the Month" until he totally outboxed & rocked Louis in their first fight until getting KO'd while attempting to stand & trade with the champion.

Surely, if a 174 lb Conn could befuddle Louis with his footwork & movement for 12 rounds then Ali could have done so for 15. And that's without taking into account Ali's far superior edge in hand speed & his own KO power. I say at their very bests, Ali stops Louis in about 11 rounds.

Wasn't Louis past his best after WW II?

Similar things have been told about SRR and the Murderers Row... But who knows, we didn't see Robinson & Louis fight them, maybe they would've came out on top against all of them. And while Ali did fight everyone worthy & available in his day, it needs to be said that he lost to Frazier & Norton. He was beatable, just like every other boxer in history.

 

[TheGreatA]

Here's one of Louis's "exhibitions" against a ranked contender:

 

[TheGreatA]

Wasn't Louis past his best after WW II?

Similar things have been told about SRR and the Murderers Row... But who knows, we didn't see Robinson & Louis fight them, maybe they would've came out on top against all of them. And while Ali did fight everyone worthy & available in his day, it needs to be said that he lost to Frazier & Norton. He was beatable, just like every other boxer in history.

The Murderers Row were on an entirely other level to the black contenders of the 1940's that Louis didn't fight.

In fact, Jimmy Bivins, who was arguably a member of that Murderers Row, was probably Louis's most viable challenger out of the bunch. Louis did end up fighting Bivins, but it was only when both men were past their primes.

Bivins was a 180 pound spoiler though who didn't fight anything like Ali, more a clutcher and grabber. Who made for boring fights.

Louis beating up guys like Lem Franklin, Lee Q Murray, Turkey Thompson, etc. wouldn't have proven anything that he didn't already prove. They weren't on the level of a Charley Burley, or Holman Williams, or anything close. More closer to the Johnny Paycheks and Red Burmans of the world. Even if he had ran through them all, nobody'd be any more convinced about his chances against Ali, than they already are.

 

[mozfonky]

It's clear to me that Louis was steered clear of some of the better black contenders of his era & instead defended against a continuous array of limited white challengers who formed his "Bum of the month" club. I'm sorry but you can't tell me that the likes of Johnny Paychek, Gus Dorazio & Red Burman were superior contenders to & more deserving of title opportunities than fighters like Elmer "Violent" Ray, Lee Q Murray & Lem Franklin. Hell, even Turkey Thompson was more deserving. But none of those men were even considered for a championship opportunity against "The Brown Bomber". In fact, of all of the Louis pre-war challengers, only light heavyweight John Henry Lewis was deemed a safe enough black opponent. And he was compromised going into his fight with Louis.

It wasn't until after WWII that Louis defended against a worthy black fighter in Jersey Joe Wolcott & he only managed to hold onto his title via a very dubious decision. Sure, Louis KO'd Wolcott in the rematch but the fact remains that he should have lost their first fight. Louis then retired only to return two years later & was nearly shut out by the next fighter of color that he faced in Ezzard Charles while attempting to regain the title.

Where am I going with all this? Just that I don't believe that Louis was quite the all-time great that most recall him as. He was protected from a lot of slick boxers & fierce punchers by his managers & promoters. With Billy Conn viewed as just another "Bum of the Month" until he totally outboxed & rocked Louis in their first fight until getting KO'd while attempting to stand & trade with the champion.

Surely, if a 174 lb Conn could befuddle Louis with his footwork & movement for 12 rounds then Ali could have done so for 15. And that's without taking into account Ali's far superior edge in hand speed & his own KO power. I say at their very bests, Ali stops Louis in about 11 rounds.

alex wallau accused louis of ducking top black fighters, but he didn't mention any names. Were there any that would have given him trouble? I mean outside the guys he fought at some point.

another problem with joe, jack johnson saw it before anyone else, he said joe was too mechanical. I mean, I hate to be even saying things that could be misconstrued as disrespectful because they aren't, Joe was a huge figure in the sport and in the country, beloved by just about everyone. Of course he was the better taught fighter, the more technically complete fighter but just about everyone Ali beat were those things too. I don't see Joe beating ali doing what he did against the "bum of the month club".

 

[TheGreatA]

alex wallau accused louis of ducking top black fighters, but he didn't mention any names. Were there any that would have given him trouble? I mean outside the guys he fought at some point.

another problem with joe, jack johnson saw it before anyone else, he said joe was too mechanical. I mean, I hate to be even saying things that could be misconstrued as disrespectful because they aren't, Joe was a huge figure in the sport and in the country, beloved by just about everyone. Of course he was the better taught fighter, the more technically complete fighter but just about everyone Ali beat were those things too. I don't see Joe beating ali doing what he did against the "bum of the month club".

I don't think any one of those guys would've been too problematic for Joe. Most of them were not too skilled, or they were under-sized (talking like 5'8-5'9, 180 pounds), or had very weak chins.

The clear thing is that none of them shared any attributes with Ali other than race, quite frankly. A guy like Bob Pastor or Billy Conn was more closer to Ali in style, than any of those guys.

Joe Louis did fight the one black boxer of the era who did resemble Ali stylistically, Jersey Joe Walcott. And he obviously had problems. But he was also older, and he did catch up to Jersey Joe eventually.

It's kind of like when people say that Rocky Marciano avoided Nino Valdes. But then you watch a Nino Valdes fight, and that narrative crumbles pretty quickly. It's obvious he wouldn't have had a chance in hell against the Rock. Archie Moore feasted on him.

 

[mozfonky]

Wasn't Louis past his best after WW II?

Similar things have been told about SRR and the Murderers Row... But who knows, we didn't see Robinson & Louis fight them, maybe they would've came out on top against all of them. And while Ali did fight everyone worthy & available in his day, it needs to be said that he lost to Frazier & Norton. He was beatable, just like every other boxer in history.

ww2 hurt a lot of boxing careers, billy conn was one example, he did much worse in the rematch, so, yes, Joe, just like Dempsey before him and Ali after him lost precious years from his career over business issues, politics or war. I've thought of it as a kind of recurring curse of the icons of their eras, Tyson similarly lost 3 and half or so years but for a dumbshit reason.