There should be new law specifying the UFC contract

[DestinedAussie]

Partly because lack of promotions that could pay more (this is a chicken and egg problem, mma contracts and promoters cripple free agency in the sport and are a barrier to new promoters entering the market), but also because it takes years and millions of dollars to fight the UFC in court. The champion's clause is likely illegal in certain states and possibly even federally. It's a effectively a reserve clause, which were abolished in sports decades ago because they cripple athlete pay. Think about it, a champion winning the belt should be at the height of their negotiating power since they've reached the pinnacle of their sport. But they aren't, they arguably have less leverage since their contracts are automatically extended indefinitely.

Also your examples aren't good ones:
-Conor was only allowed to box because the UFC took a massive cut of his purse and the fights revenue. So much so that 2017 revenue exceeded 2018 revenue for the UFC.
-MM was released, he also wasn't champion on paper after getting jobbed in the Cejudo fight.
-the UFC told Whitaker if he was injured in wrestling he'd be stripped, no interim belt. They twisted his arm on it.

Finally, Cejudo is still under contract until he fights out the contract or until the day he dies effectively. Only way he is released to box is if he's willing to fork over a massive chunk of his purse.

On Bobby, it sounds like he allowed but decided the risk wasn't worth it. The UFC threats are pretty normal. NBA players have clauses in their contracts to not play other sports to stop them getting injured.

The fact there aren't promotions that can pay is an issue caused more by the market not being big enough to support multiple big players. I am not sure the contract situation is a significant factor as you think, but more the marketing/TV time. The UFC builds stories around fighters and has a machine to do this. It bigger than putting on the biggest fights but they are product themselves. I don't think Jones v Francis could sign with bellator tomorrow and the PPV would be 20% of what it would be if it was a UFC card. They have become a brand rather than just a promoter.

TBH I don't have much sympathy for the contract situation. They have managers who should be looking after fighters. If the deal is really that bad they should challenge in court. Currently I think sherdoggers are more upset about the contracts than the fighters. The fighters only seem upset when they are cut or want more money than signed on the dotted line for.

 

[Sticko]

On Bobby, it sounds like he allowed but decided the risk wasn't worth it. The UFC threats are pretty normal. NBA players have clauses in their contracts to not play other sports to stop them getting injured.

The threat to strip Whittaker if he got injured wrestling seems kind of silly though, because it's really not any more dangerous than sparring. And UFC fighters do submission grappling on the side all the time.

 

[MCS]

It will come in time. Question of if it's 5 years or whatever amount. Doubtful if the aftermath of the class action suit will lead to it, because it sounds more like a settlement than a ongoing movement. All this goes back to a union or association.

Until then it's up to the managers to make befitting contracts for their fighters. To not sign long contracts. Ali has helped with that. Others will learn. The nature of fight sports having friends or family members as representatives often leads to shit deals. Managers need to be competent, not just friends.

 

[kflo]

It's anti-competitive. It's not a fair market.

When you buy a coca-cola bottle during lunch, you're not forced to buy coca-cola for months or years on end. You have the freedom to buy pepsi the next day, or you can skip soda altogether.

Fighters should have the freedom to go to a better organization that pays better or treats their fighters better. The UFC should be good enough to sink or swim on their own. Dana White and Endeavor are greedy, corporate bosses.

Not sure what you mean. They have a contract. When that contract ends, they can get offers from other companies.

And endeavor is no different than the fertittas who were also greedy, as are most businesses.

 

[kflo]

This statement is oversimplifying, champion's clauses, long matching and negotiating periods, threat of tolling, the option option a promoter to bury or cripple a fighter's market value before fee agency (the UFC has admitted this in court), etc. These all make getting out of contracts or fighting them out much more complicated in reality.

It’s also oversimplifying to suggest the ufc has an option to bury or cripple a fighters market value.

 

[chiefwiggum]

This thread is ill-conceived, poorly informed drivel, tbh. Fighters know what they are signing off on, they have managers and lawyers, and to compare these contracts to slavery is so fucking stupid I can't even process it. There is a lot that goes into those contracts you obviously don't know about, and even if you had one of them in front of you, I doubt you would be able to make anything out from the text.

Say you sign a 5 fight contract and the ufc gives you two fights and doesn’t not honor the remaining fights of the deal and you can’t go somewhere else to make your living.

that’s a shitty deal.

 

[kflo]

It will come in time. Question of if it's 5 years or whatever amount. Doubtful if the aftermath of the class action suit will lead to it, because it sounds more like a settlement than a ongoing movement. All this goes back to a union or association.

Until then it's up to the managers to make befitting contracts for their fighters. To not sign long contracts. Ali has helped with that. Others will learn. The nature of fight sports having friends or family members as representatives often leads to shit deals. Managers need to be competent, not just friends.

People act like a 6 fight deal is indentured servitude. That’s a 2 year deal for an active fighter.

 

[kflo]

Say you sign a 5 fight contract and the ufc gives you two fights and doesn’t not honor the remaining fights of the deal and you can’t go somewhere else to make your living.

that’s a shitty deal.

That doesn’t happen. You’re making up a scenario that can’t exist. If the ufc doesn’t honor the contract the fighter doesn’t stay under contract.

 

[avenue94]

It’s also oversimplifying to suggest the ufc has an option to bury or cripple a fighters market value.

How else would describe threats to bury a fighter on the undercard or be given a bad matchup explicitly as punishment for not reupping or playing ball? All of which was confirmed in court.

 

[avenue94]

It will come in time. Question of if it's 5 years or whatever amount. Doubtful if the aftermath of the class action suit will lead to it, because it sounds more like a settlement than a ongoing movement. All this goes back to a union or association.

Until then it's up to the managers to make befitting contracts for their fighters. To not sign long contracts. Ali has helped with that. Others will learn. The nature of fight sports having friends or family members as representatives often leads to shit deals. Managers need to be competent, not just friends.

You're illustrating the fundamental issue with managers and agents. They routinely fuck over clients to maintain relationships with promoters and fans don't know or don't care. Case in point, Ali. He's arguably the UFC's favorite manager, and if you can't be both the promoters favorite and represent your client's best interests. Those are inherently conflicting goals. Not to mention the ludicrous lengths Ali has gone to carry water for the UFC, such as when he argued in court that not publishing fighter pay is good for fighters, when that flies in the face of nearly every economic study of athlete pay.

 

[kflo]

How else would describe threats to bury a fighter on the undercard or be given a bad matchup explicitly as punishment for not reupping or playing ball? All of which was confirmed in court.

Those things don’t inherently cripple someone’s market value. That’s a fact. Again, you’re simplifying when it suits your argument. And that was then......and that guy isn’t there anymore.

 

[You Will Vote For Dreyga]

Say you sign a 5 fight contract and the ufc gives you two fights and doesn’t not honor the remaining fights of the deal and you can’t go somewhere else to make your living.

that’s a shitty deal.

This doesn’t happen. UFC contracts guarantee 3 fight offers a year

 

[MCS]

People act like a 6 fight deal is indentured servitude. That’s a 2 year deal for an active fighter.

For young fighters they're not too long. They won't become top guys within 2-3 fights. There is a common road. But for fringe contenders who can change their value within 1-2 fights they're too long. Or for champions. Same deal, things can change fast. Should be able to negotiate again then.

Because the alternative is often to sit out and ask for more money when under contract already. That's not really a solution. Contracts are meant to be honored. Makes things too difficult.

 

[MCS]

You're illustrating the fundamental issue with managers and agents. They routinely fuck over clients to maintain relationships with promoters and fans don't know or don't care. Case in point, Ali. He's arguably the UFC's favorite manager, and if you can't be both the promoters favorite and represent your client's best interests. Those are inherently conflicting goals. Not to mention the ludicrous lengths Ali has gone to carry water for the UFC, such as when he argued in court that not publishing fighter pay is good for fighters, when that flies in the face of nearly every economic study of athlete pay.

I agree. There is a conflict.

 

[kflo]

For young fighters they're not too long. They won't become top guys within 2-3 fights. There is a common road. But for fringe contenders who can change their value within 1-2 fights they're too long. Or for champions. Same deal, things can change fast. Should be able to negotiate again then.

Because the alternative is often to sit out and ask for more money when under contract already. That's not really a solution. Contracts are meant to be honored. Makes things too difficult.

Fringe contenders signing new contracts should have step up conditions in the contract.

 

[MCS]

Fringe contenders signing new contracts should have step up conditions in the contract.

Yes. If you fight a certain level of ranked guy the pay should be tied to that. It would help the matchmaking as well, as it's tied to money. But then the accepting of fights should be rewarded as well for taking on lower ranked guys. Currently in a lot of divisions it's just easy to decline and keep waiting for the right opportunity. WW at the top has suffered because of it.

 

[avenue94]

Those things don’t inherently cripple someone’s market value. That’s a fact. Again, you’re simplifying when it suits your argument. And that was then......and that guy isn’t there anymore.

So if I have a matchup between 2 fighters, it doesn't affect market value of those fighters if I put it on the main card or bury it on the prelims that are seen by far less people? Is that your argument?

And maybe UFC culture vastly changed after Joe Silva retired, but there's no evidence to indicate that, and evidence tends to only come out during lawsuits. It's far more likely the UFC hasn't vastly changed how it negotiates with fighters. In the meantime, we have plenty of evidence of that kind of UFC treatment from the lawsuit.

 

[kflo]

So if I have a matchup between 2 fighters, it doesn't affect market value of those fighters if I put it on the main card or bury it on the prelims that are seen by far less people? Is that your argument?

And maybe UFC culture vastly changed after Joe Silva retired, but there's no evidence to indicate that, and evidence tends to only come out during lawsuits. It's far more likely the UFC hasn't vastly changed how it negotiates with fighters. In the meantime, we have plenty of evidence of that kind of UFC treatment from the lawsuit.

it doesn't inherently cripple their market value. that's my argument. not your invented argument.

and sometimes the prelims get more viewers than the main card. but again, the primary point is that it's not crippling of market value at all. you know this, yet repeat it often.

and the ufc obviously knows how optics matter and would be extremely dumb to not be more aware of practices that look bad and adversely impact their chances in court or a settlement.

 

[avenue94]

For young fighters they're not too long. They won't become top guys within 2-3 fights. There is a common road. But for fringe contenders who can change their value within 1-2 fights they're too long. Or for champions. Same deal, things can change fast. Should be able to negotiate again then.

Because the alternative is often to sit out and ask for more money when under contract already. That's not really a solution. Contracts are meant to be honored. Makes things too difficult.

This works in theory, but in reality most contenders are interchangeable for the UFC. And fighters have an interest in playing ball since the UFC decides who gets a title shot or not and how hard a fighter is going to have to work for it.

This doesn’t happen. UFC contracts guarantee 3 fight offers a year

Is it three or 2? And is it one offer at a time or a fighter gets more than one bout offer each period to pick between? Genuinely asking, I've seen more or less all of those claims and I suspect most contracts are standardized in that regard.

I agree. There is a conflict.

Keep in mind also, a lot of sports rely on an players association or a union to regulate managers, but those are really hard to get going in mma. For example, just to get a card check done means 30 percent of fighters need to sign on, that's nearly 200 UFC fighters, which is a really hard threshold to meet, if for any reason coordination and logistics.

On Bobby, it sounds like he allowed but decided the risk wasn't worth it. The UFC threats are pretty normal. NBA players have clauses in their contracts to not play other sports to stop them getting injured.

Again, like I said, with Bobby the UFC more or less twisted his arm on it and I believe other fighters have been been blocked from grappling competitions and such. And for the record I don't have problem with that kind of contract regulations, it just seems at odds with the spirit of "they're contractors, not employees." But that's another story.

The fact there aren't promotions that can pay is an issue caused more by the market not being big enough to support multiple big players. I am not sure the contract situation is a significant factor as you think, but more the marketing/TV time. The UFC builds stories around fighters and has a machine to do this. It bigger than putting on the biggest fights but they are product themselves. I don't think Jones v Francis could sign with bellator tomorrow and the PPV would be 20% of what it would be if it was a UFC card. They have become a brand rather than just a promoter.

The market is big enough to support multiple players, there's just a very high barrier to entry. Say I'm a new promoter and I want to build have an amazing WW division? How do I do that when most of the good and/or marketable WWs are under contract. It's not like all their contracts end at the same time, and what fighter is going to sign if they're the only WW in my promotion. Fighters become elite by beating other good fighters generally, and it's hard to hit that critical mass if I"m a new promotion.

You're also overselling the UFC's marketing. Jones vs Francis does less, but nevertheless still monster numbers, under another promotion. Keep in mind, while the UFC isn't necessarily plum bad in marketing fighters, they're quite mediocre for a company owned by a Hollywood talent agency. If you can't find a way to market the shit out of Amanda Nunes in this day and age, you aren't a marketing whiz.

TBH I don't have much sympathy for the contract situation. They have managers who should be looking after fighters. If the deal is really that bad they should challenge in court. Currently I think sherdoggers are more upset about the contracts than the fighters. The fighters only seem upset when they are cut or want more money than signed on the dotted line for.

I do blame the fighters some, but asking the fighters to fix the problem is trying to fix a systemic problem with individual solutions. For example, agents and managers are a big problem in this sport, but those functions are usually regulated by a PA or a union. Creating either in mma is a huge challenge because of the nature of the sport, not to mention the UFC has fought attempts by fighters to organize.

Or challenging it in court: Doing so takes years and millions of dollars, what fighter can afford to end their career like that? Very few.

 

[avenue94]

it doesn't inherently cripple their market value. that's my argument. not your invented argument.

So if it doesn't inherently cripple market value of fighters, why did the UFC do that in the past? Sure, maybe a fighter turns in a gem of a fight in the prelims and it gets traction, but that's an unlikely outcome.

Here's Joe Silva's actual words: I lowballed them on purpose the first offer knowing they would turn it down,” wrote Silva. “How bout I come back with 29+29, 32+32, 35+35, 38+38. If they turn it down I put him in a prelim against a really tough guy for his last fight.

Odd, that quote sounds very much like an attempt to reduce a fighter's market value before free agency.

and the ufc obviously knows how optics matter and would be extremely dumb to not be more aware of practices that look bad and adversely impact their chances in court or a settlement.

The UFC has gotten slightly better with optics the past few years (I suspect letting more elite fighters go is tied to the lawsuit and those optics), but that isn't exactly high praise. Come on, Dana White isn't exactly great optics if you're trying to go mainstream in this day and age.