The Sonnen sub defence myth

[nni]

People are always talking about Sonnen's mediocre sub defence, that he needs to get decent sub defence, etc. Based on what?

In the last four years he was submitted by Paulo Filho, Demian Maia and Anderson Silva. All legit bjj black belts. Paulo Filho is a bjj stud, Demian Maia one of the best bjjers in MMA and Anderson a solid black belt.

He sat in Anderson's guard for +20 mins without ever being in clear danger. Only towards the end, when he was tired and cut, did Anderson managed to sink in the sub.

He manhandled Marquardt who is a 2nd degree bjj blackbelt, staying in his guard for a lot of the fight.

Clearly the guy has learnt a lot of sub defence over the past few years. He trash talks bjj, but if he didn't train it he wouldn't be able to dominate legit black belts the way he does.

Thoughts?

 

[mindsouljah**]

People are always talking about Sonnen's mediocre sub defence, that he needs to get decent sub defence, etc. Based on what?

In the last four years he was submitted by Paulo Filho, Demian Maia and Anderson Silva. All legit bjj black belts. Paulo Filho is a bjj stud, Demian Maia one of the best bjjers in MMA and Anderson a solid black belt.

He sat in Anderson's guard for +20 mins without ever being in clear danger. Only towards the end, when he was tired and cut, did Anderson managed to sink in the sub.

He manhandled Marquardt who is a 2nd degree bjj blackbelt, staying in his guard for a lot of the fight.

Clearly the guy has learnt a lot of sub defence over the past few years. He trash talks bjj, but if he didn't train it he wouldn't be able to dominate legit black belts the way he does.

Thoughts?

he was subbed by a man with broken ribs.... not to mention all but 3 of his 11 loses were by submission he doesnt have sub defense...he manhandled marquadt tho because he was stronger plain and simple

 

[tenniswhiz]

Of course you are correct. Don't pay attention to the fools who say he has no sub defense.
He spent almost 45 minutes total on top of Dan Miller, Okami, and Marquardt, 20 minutes on top of Anderson, and wasn't subbed in that time.

Despite his trash talk about BJJ, he definitely trains with advanced BJJ practitioners and knows what he is doing.

Part of the reason he has lost a couple times by sub is because he spends more time in his opponent's guard than any other fighter. He's good enough to do it too.

LOL, only internet warriors criticize a person's sub defense because they got subbed by Demain Maia.

 

[mindsouljah**]

Of course you are correct. Don't pay attention to the fools who say he has no sub defense.
He spent almost 45 minutes total on top of Dan Miller, Okami, and Marquardt, 20 minutes on top of Anderson, and wasn't subbed in that time.

Despite his trash talk about BJJ, he definitely trains with advanced BJJ practitioners and knows what he is doing.

Part of the reason he has lost a couple times by sub is because he spends more time in his opponent's guard than any other fighter. He's good enough to do it too.

LOL, only internet warriors criticize a person's sub defense because they got subbed by Demain Maia.

ok lets make this simple he is sloppy from the top and has poor sub defense is that better? everybody who subbed him arent top bjj guys(griffin when they fought) later in his career they are (maia for example) but not all of them

 

[nni]

he was subbed by a man with broken ribs.... not to mention all but 3 of his 11 loses were by submission he doesnt have sub defense...he manhandled marquadt tho because he was stronger plain and simple

ok lets make this simple he is sloppy from the top and has poor sub defense is that better? everybody who subbed him arent top bjj guys(griffin when they fought) later in his career they are (maia for example) but not all of them

Please go somewhere else. Or stop trying to prove your point of view with facts that happened more than 4 years ago. It just shows that you're either a Sonnen hater or too dumb to make a logical analysis.

 

[mindsouljah**]

Please go somewhere else. Or stop trying to prove your point of view with facts that happened more than 4 years ago. It just shows that you're either a Sonnen hater or too dumb to make a logical analysis.

then please make your point because i clearly made mine. i have respect for him but forrest griffin and others werent black belts when they subbed him blah blah etc.. regardless how you or i feel about this guy it doesnt change the fact that clearly his weak point in his game is sub defense.. how many more times will he have to be tapped out for you to see that?

 

[Asphyx**]

It's more a case of horrible sub awareness. He had his arm way out there and let Anderson control his wrist for 30 seconds. Anderson punched him hard in the face to distract him from the impending sub and started elbowing his head which led him to completely overlook the submission threat and focus on the strikes from the bottom. He's honestly one of the least intelligent fighters in the cage despite coming across as a fairly bright individual outside of fighting.

 

[cannabody]

Anderson waited till the last minute and when fighters are also the most slippery to lock in a sub

 

[csroster]

What myth? He just fucking lost by submission...

I mean even before the fight, alot of people were calling Anderson via triangle... It's not exactly like nobody saw that coming. (maybe not the dramatic fashion it occured, but that Silva beat Sonnen with a triangle)

The fact of the matter is, if Sonnen had better sub defense he would be wearing the belt and this thread would make more sense. Since he couldn't win the belt due to being subbed, I fail to see how it's a myth.

 

[Dunsta]

Before the UFC I remember Chael being the guy that could stay in someones guard doing work and never get caught. Then his first figh tin the ufc he got caught.

 

[GNKGNK]

he still beat the shit out of anderson people....

 

[ZuZitsu**]

Defense (just saying)

 

[Quoth]

he still beat the shit out of anderson people....

this is still one of my favorite arguements "he was winning until he lost" your right that if he had kept that up he would be the champion but it doesnt matter how well you fought if you end up losing the fight.

You still lost.

 

[nni]

then please make your point because i clearly made mine. i have respect for him but forrest griffin and others werent black belts when they subbed him blah blah etc.. regards how you or i feel about this guy it doesnt change the fact that clearly his weak point in his game is sub defense.. how many more times will he have to be tapped out for you to see that?

Ok. Let's see.

he was subbed by a man with broken ribs.... not to mention all but 3 of his 11 loses were by submission he doesnt have sub defense...

Yes, 8 losses by submission. 5 of those were >4 years ago. Do you understand the concept of fighters improving?

he manhandled marquadt tho because he was stronger plain and simple

You don't understand grappling if you think he dominated Marquardt because he is stronger and not because of his elite wrestling.

ok lets make this simple he is sloppy from the top and has poor sub defense is that better?

This is not true, as shown by the fact that he stayed in Anderson's guard for 4 1/2 rounds before being submitted, Marquardt's and Okami's for most of the fight without being submitted.

everybody who subbed him arent top bjj guys(griffin when they fought)

Yes, a long time ago he lost to non top guys. You know, when he wasn't a top fighter.

later in his career they are (maia for example) but not all of them

Who are you referring to? Later in his career he lost to Paulo Filho, Demian Maia and Anderson Silva.

 

[nni]

Defense (just saying)

UK spelling (just saying).

 

[ACL Tear]

What myth? He just fucking lost by submission...

I mean even before the fight, alot of people were calling Anderson via triangle... It's not exactly like nobody saw that coming. (maybe not the dramatic fashion it occured, but that Silva beat Sonnen with a triangle)

The fact of the matter is, if Sonnen had better sub defense he would be wearing the belt and this thread would make more sense. Since he couldn't win the belt due to being subbed, I fail to see how it's a myth.

No its a myth....

Just becasue the guy is getting subbed by high level grapplers does not mean he has terrible sub defense. That is like saying an NBA player who gets scored on sucks at defense. When in reality he is awsome but playing against the best of the best. I am sorry Sonnen does not suck at sub defense. He used his wrestling to earn a title shot in one if not the best fight orgs. in the world. So yes if he was better then one of the p4p best he would be champ but he is not - so he is not. Far from sucking.

Sherdog where if your not the champion you suck.

 

[MMA RLZ]

Not really a myth when the vast majority of his significant number of losses come from subs.

 

[nni]

Not really a myth when the vast majority of his significant number of losses come from subs.

Way to go. Don't read the OP, just the thread title.

 

[xcydal]

ok lets make this simple he is sloppy from the top and has poor sub defense is that better? everybody who subbed him arent top bjj guys(griffin when they fought) later in his career they are (maia for example) but not all of them

Really? Maia and Filho aren't top bjj guys?

He also withstood the gaurds of Marquardt (blackbelt) and Miller (blackbelt, got his belt even faster than Maia).

Saying he has no sub defence is retarded. He also defended the triangle Silva put him in, he just forgot to cover the counter to his defence.

 

[ACL Tear]

Not really a myth when the vast majority of his significant number of losses come from subs.

He is getting subbed by professional athletes not bums off the street. I think it