The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[Woldog]

No. If you actually read a post on this thread you wouldn't say that.

Basically they don't spar, so it is not used.
When they do start to spar, it will be used.

So in like 200 years they have decided not to spar..... Come on man 10 years you've been repping WC. But it's too dangerous to spar with lmao.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Wrong. Every Wing Chun technique you've pointed out which actually worked in live combat is a poor 3rd rate imitation of common, proven techniques in various combat sports. Then you just straight up lie and prove that you didn't watch Karuhat's MT fight by claiming that Ferguson shows additional skills such as parrying entries with slapping parries. Which Karuhat does 10 times better than Ferguson, and anyone who actually watched the video can see that.

Once again, you reveal your complete lack of knowledge. Cody Garbrandt was a 32-1 amateur boxer who crossed over into MMA and became a UFC champion. Stipe Miocic who is the current UFC HW champ is also a Golden Gloves boxing champ.

Yeah he is arguing completely from ignorance. I'd be surprised if he even knew who Karuhat was and he definitely didn't watch the clip of him if his takeaway was that they're doing different things. Slapping parries to elbows a massive thing in Muay Thai, it's about 80% of what Yodkhunpon and Muangthai did.

Tony Ferguson was meant to do some tutorial videos for my gyms website/channel (we're both Eddie Bravo affiliates), right before he got injured the most recent time. If we're able to pin him down again I'll find out where he got his Karuhat elbows from.

So in like 200 years they have decided not to spar..... Come on man 10 years you've been repping WC. But it's too dangerous to spar with lmao.

20 years. *

 

[TheMaster]

Found this somewhat strange but still positive video

A K1 champion kickboxer doing light sparring with a WC hobbyist...
Not sure what the arrangement is, they must know each other.

Only 160 views, looks like it's an elite club to see this one! Lol


The guy is basic level WC only 2 years experience and not a conditioned athelete. K1guy is a pro so obviously going easy. Plus they are doing it boxing gloves not MMA gloves which would be much better for WC techniques.

But still it is great to see a WC guy even low level do this.

Another vid of him doing light sparring with a guy with some boxing training. Neither is a good level at all. But we need to see more of this.
Light sparring wearing MMA gloves and elbow pads but preferrably with decent level WC guys who have trained a few years with conditioning, sparring boxers and kickboxers.

I see some basic sensitivity in close but lack of variety of punches, so no uppercuts or hooks, and they are not doing elbows. Still this is the way to make the system come alive.


And sparring against an amateur level TKD/kickboxer who has done competitions.
Also by his tone, you can tell some guys in the WC community (myself included) are getting more pissed at the longstanding insults from some in boxing/MMA that WC 'doesn't work'.
So that will push more sparring to make the system come alive and evolve, which is a good thing.
Be careful what you wish for...
Anyway all good I hope more in the WC community can take this approach.

 

[zapataxiv]

Modern 'boxing' is obviously incomplete which is why it has to be renovated hugely to have a chance in MMA.

But I am simply pointing out that when I have tried to use WC principles at range, since I don't do boxing for me it has been picking one shot power punches at range and long range parrying with the forearm or hand to step in and out, or else getting in very close to in-fighting.
Either way I won't be standing at punching range like a boxer.

Anyway, the parrallels have been discussed before everything from the stance to the vertical fist. Whether or not there is a connection to me it adheres to the principles more than modern boxing if you want to do WC at long range.

http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/armando-sainz-revival-bare-knuckle-boxing.htm


Don't care too much what the opinion on this is since no one here has WC or BK experience. I expect it to be flamed but from experience with sparring it becomes something like this.

From article, which I have also found through experience:

"I have come to understand the importance of retaining that early longer range Western Long-Bridge Boxing. My experience has been that without its influence, a three to eight year practitioner of Wing Chun is predominantly a mid to short range fighter who finds kickers and anyone who fights at, or just outside of, boxing range to be problematic. I say this with all due respect not wanting to ruffle feathers, but I’ve touched hands with many of the major lines’ practitioners only to find them wanting. They could not deal with someone who kept them out of their comfort zone. In other words, I found that their interpretation of Wing Chun was somehow limited by tradition. It lacked presence and innovation...

Teaching the Long-Bridge aspects of Wing Chun is first. To me it’s all Wing Chun but I emphasize the Long-Bridge because of its brutal effectiveness. Its emphasis is on destroying the attacker efficiently and quickly at a longer range than is traditionally taught to 99% of Wing Chun practitioners... The footwork is not different than Wing Chun, just larger. Much of the training is efficient interception, footwork and straight, leg-powered punches with simultaneous deflection. Keeping your head away from the action and greater mobility is key. After they are proficient they go into what we call mid-range (where most Wing Chun lives) and then at higher levels to short-bridge or very close quarters training."

You have gone off the deep end

First of all there is a difference betwix old school and modern boxing but i dont think you really grasp the differences. Instead of focusing on the BK aspects

There isnt a boxing range... different guys box at different ranges. Labeling a punching range makes you sound like someone who doesn’t know much about boxing. Also why do you keep throwing around the word “standing around” in punching range. Boxing is extremely dynamic and the Biggest aspect is controlling distance and manipulating distance. Saying a strategy ir “style” is as simple as going back and forth or parrying with your forearms is well, dumb.

All around though you dont sound like somebody who is knowledgeable enough to speak on the principles of modern boxing. All your talking points i have heard before from charlatans and salesmen in gis selling cool aid.


The long bridge stuff sounds like classic marketing for mcdojos
What is its chinese name? If its so effective why do 99% of practitioners not learn it?

 

[TheMaster]

There isnt a boxing range... different guys box at different ranges. Labeling a punching range makes you sound like someone who doesn’t know much about boxing. Also why do you keep throwing around the word “standing around” in punching range. Boxing is extremely dynamic and the Biggest aspect is controlling distance and manipulating distance. Saying a strategy ir “style” is as simple as going back and forth or parrying with your forearms is well, dumb.

All around though you dont sound like somebody who is knowledgeable enough to speak on the principles of modern boxing.

One thing I can guarantee is I know a hell of alot more about boxing than you or anyone else here knows about WC. Yet that doesn't stop ignorant like you making uniformed pronouncements that you are sure WC doesn't work,based in having very little knowledge of it.

You are just trying to be irritating and sound like a smart ass for the sake of it, when you are far from it.

Boxing is usually fought at a range. This is closer than the parameters of kickboxing range, and further than grappling range.

It doesn't matter that there is some variation in distance we understand the principle of ranges still applies.
We know there can be in-fighting and out-fighting, and clinching. Don't overcomplicate things.

But hey, what do I know. We should hail you ,
you can advice pro GOATs even I think.

Forgive me, for speaking about 'boxing range' and 'kickboxing range'.

Don't forget to tell these guys as well.



https://www.espn.com/mma/story/_/id...handles-nick-diaz-defends-ufc-170-pound-title

"I didn't want to fight at a boxing range because he's the best boxer in mixed martial arts", St.Pierre said.
"[The strategy] was to stay in a kickboxing range," St-Pierre said. "Stay out of a boxing range and use my karate to get in and out."

 

[nefti]

The amount of mental gymnastics that kung fu guys have to do to defind bullshido is amazinf

 

[TheMaster]

The amount of mental gymnastics that kung fu guys have to do to defind bullshido is amazinf

Not really.
It seems you don't know what is 'bullshido'.

We start sparring it starts working better. Quite simple and no mystery.

This would be neither unexpected nor surprising for a logical system with all the tools to be successful.

There should be almost another topic,
"Why the idea and mounting evidence that Wing Chun can work in MMA, disturbs so many people in the MMA community"

 

[SandisLL]

The only evidence here during 20 years The Master had mounted and proved is that he even does not have skills to determine friendly demo from even light sparring.
Thanks for posting these videos and pretending that this is sparring.

 

[TheMaster]

The only evidence here during 20 years The Master had mounted and proved is that he even does not have skills to determine friendly demo from even light sparring.
Thanks for posting these videos and pretending that this is sparring.
So keyboard warrior and expert that is calling others as keyboard warriors does not have even enough brains to determine what stuff the sparring is?

LOL, and if for fun, better once in life during 20 years here had attended and tasted what stuff a boxer is in any british boxing gym.

Friendly sparring or light sparring whatever.
It is good that guys are sparring fullstop.
I never claimed the vid was anything more than a low level hobbyist but at least he is doing even light sparring with other styles.

And the only evidence during your one year is you can barely speak English so we need a translator most of the time.

Again the question, why are people so disturbed with the idea that WC works or can work?

 

[SandisLL]

I never claimed the vid was anything more than a low level hobbyist but at least he is doing even light sparring with other styles.

Why you talk about levels, I noted that this is not sparring.

For second argument, I suggest not to teach english here to other users, because you do not know english well, despite you are living in english language country.

 

[II Muchetto II]

Again the question, why are people so disturbed with the idea that WC works or can work?

I don't think anyone is disturbed by the idea of it working. I just think unless they see it with there own eyes they are not going to get on board.

Sharing a MMA fight if someone you claim is from a WC school beating someone who looks like they have never trained (while looking terrible doing it), didnt help your case in the way you feel it did.

The same as sharing those sparring videos, they look terrible. They make WC look really bad. We are yet to see any real evidence that WC could be a good base for MMA. Just because you say it will, doesn't hold much in terms of merit, without anything to back it up (visually) that makes you think wow!

Wow moments in MMA of obscure arts have happened loads... Machida did it for karate, mvp and Raymond Daniels done it for points fighting. Wonderboy done it for shiney pants kickboxing. Royce gracie did it for BJJ. Khabib and fedor done it for sambo... Etc etc

Fighting is not a secret, it's a sweet science

 

[j123]

This thread is like a foreshadowing of what happens if flat Earthers form an organized religion and go jihad on boxing or MT

 

[TheMaster]

I don't think anyone is disturbed by the idea of it working. I just think unless they see it with there own eyes they are not going to get on board.

Sharing a MMA fight if someone you claim is from a WC school beating someone who looks like they have never trained (while looking terrible doing it), didnt help your case in the way you feel it did.

The same as sharing those sparring videos, they look terrible. They make WC look really bad. We are yet to see any real evidence that WC could be a good base for MMA. Just because you say it will, doesn't hold much in terms of merit, without anything to back it up (visually) that makes you think wow!

Wow moments in MMA of obscure arts have happened loads... Machida did it for karate, mvp and Raymond Daniels done it for points fighting. Wonderboy done it for shiney pants kickboxing. Royce gracie did it for BJJ. Khabib and fedor done it for sambo... Etc etc

Fighting is not a secret, it's a sweet science

Ultimately, Wing Chun is a way of training skills, attributes and strategy. It should be as varied as boxing.
Throw any type of punch - hook, uppercut, cross, overhand, do parries, move the head etc- people call it all 'boxing'.

For WC they want a cardboard representation of chain punching or they say 'its not wing chun'.
This is complete rubbish.

My view is, WC will actually look outwardly not that different to boxing or MT in MMA, especially since alot of the more recognizable 'kungfu' WC techniques like finger strikes or chops aren't even allowed. There will be some outward differences but not as much as people think in how it looks.

However, even though it outwardly looks similar in mma, the inner mechanics are totally different than boxing. The way the limbs are used and the way sensitivity of chi sau is trained and power is generated for strikes are different.

But understand that in MMA you will see WC fighters doing straights, hooks, uppercuts, clinch work, elbows etc as you see in MT and dirty boxing- but it is still all WC.
Again I emphasize, WC is a principle based art -you can punch with fist vertical or horizontal, straight, uppercut or hook, any type of elbow strike or parry it is all still WC, it is about how you use your limbs and the skills and attributes WC develops not how it looks when it is used.



Explantion of the differences despite outwardly looking similar.



Wing Chun is supposed to be a dynamic system.
Alan Orr is one of the few guys out there who gets it,and the fact he does MMA is no surprise.
He describes that way WC has a variety of punches, not just the straight blast for example. Yet mostly you see WC guys standing linear and throwing mainly straights which they don't need to.
So he is using WC correctly, which is why is doesn't 'look' like the limited stereotype version of the art people are used to seeing since that is not what it's supposed to look like anyway.

A highly respected Wing Chun grandmaster who I wont name has told me that 95% or more of the Wing Chun out there is garbage. And it true. People just don't understand the style.

I think I will have to train up a guy eventually to do this.
Will probably start with BKFC since to do MMA needs too many other skill sets and WC may not even get a chance to shine in that environment unless it is good wrestler who can keep it standing.
WC also has the BK lineage I believe so training a fighter for that title would be nice.

 

[shincheckin]

Basically they don't spar, so it is not used.
When they do start to spar, it will be used.

They already did spar, and that's why it's not used.

Once they started to spar they realized it was BS, and moved on to more effective martial arts

 

[shincheckin]

This thread is like a foreshadowing of what happens if flat Earthers form an organized religion and go jihad on boxing or MT

I have shot holes in everything he has said so hard he's just ignoring me now. I even posted a video showing a boxing technique that could very easily be related to WC.


I didn't watch all the videos in his style vs style match ups, but the boxer was very low skill level. He's unable to recognize that.

In style vs style matchups, you can't match someone who is a high level boxer against a low level MT, as it's not a fair matchup. Of course shitty MT guy is going to get his ass kicked.


You see this kind of thing all over YouTube.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I have shot holes in everything he has said so hard he's just ignoring me now. I even posted a video showing a boxing technique that could very easily be related to WC.


I didn't watch all the videos in his style vs style match ups, but the boxer was very low skill level. He's unable to recognize that.

In style vs style matchups, you can't match someone who is a high level boxer against a low level MT, as it's not a fair matchup. Of course shitty MT guy is going to get his ass kicked.


You see this kind of thing all over YouTube.

You say that, but Riddick Bowe lost in a one sided fashion to just some random muay thai heavyweight, and muay thai doesn't even really have a heavyweight division

 

[II Muchetto II]

I think I will have to train up a guy eventually to do this.
Will probably start with BKFC since to do MMA needs too many other skill sets and WC may not even get a chance to shine in that environment unless it is good wrestler who can keep it standing.
WC also has the BK lineage I believe so training a fighter for that title would be nice.

Don't take this the wrong way. But if you have never fought yourself, you shouldn't consider training someone to compete in a ring. Not that you have to be a good fighter. Sometimes the worst fighters make great coaches. But IMHO, you have to know what that feels like at some level to teach.

The rule in my club is anyone can train, everyone is welcome. We train hard, there are no egos. But to teach (within a club that fights regularly) you have to have competed.

To be coaching without a team and to train someone to get to a level to fight, it takes a lot of responsibility, a lot of extra work to get them fit enough to do it as well as get the skill level right. To get the mentality right. It's full on and full time. It really is not that easy. I do it, and it really comes at a cost.

Putting someone in a fight and getting them to put their health on the line isn't an experiment. Its serious shit mate. So this is were we will defo never agree because it sounds like your ideas will be put before someone's safety. And it's something I feel extremely strongly against.

Why don't you make the cross over from fatisy to reality yourself and go and put your skills to the test rather than think you can get someone else to do it?

 

[shincheckin]

You say that, but Riddick Bowe lost in a one sided fashion to just some random muay thai heavyweight, and muay thai doesn't even really have a heavyweight division

Generally speaking, a high level "this", is going to beat a low level "that"

There's always going to be exceptions, in this case a 43 yrs old riddick Bowe.

Not sure what point your trying to make here? But it kinda sounds like not true because this one time this one guy.

Have a good one

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Generally speaking, a high level "this", is going to beat a low level "that"

There's always going to be exceptions, in this case a 43 yrs old riddick Bowe.

Not sure what point your trying to make here? But it kinda sounds like not true because this one time this one guy.

Have a good one

More that this is the only example of a high level boxer vs a low level muay thai fighter that exists. My point is more that when its full contact sport like MMA or Muay Thai, the style used to the more open ruleset will win

IE, Bowe got kicked to death by that guy, but definitely would have won under boxing rules, and Ricardo Mayorga is useless in MMA.

A good exception to the my point in fairness though, is Kyotaro and John Wayne Parr, who both did well as boxers

 

[TheMaster]

Don't take this the wrong way. But if you have never fought yourself, you shouldn't consider training someone to compete in a ring. Not that you have to be a good fighter. Sometimes the worst fighters make great coaches. But IMHO, you have to know what that feels like at some level to teach.

The rule in my club is anyone can train, everyone is welcome. We train hard, there are no egos. But to teach (within a club that fights regularly) you have to have competed.

To be coaching without a team and to train someone to get to a level to fight, it takes a lot of responsibility, a lot of extra work to get them fit enough to do it as well as get the skill level right. To get the mentality right. It's full on and full time. It really is not that easy. I do it, and it really comes at a cost.

Putting someone in a fight and getting them to put their health on the line isn't an experiment. Its serious shit mate. So this is were we will defo never agree because it sounds like your ideas will be put before someone's safety. And it's something I feel extremely strongly against.

Why don't you make the cross over from fatisy to reality yourself and go and put your skills to the test rather than think you can get someone else to do it?

It won't be for some time, and I don't necessarily disagree with you on that.
I wouldn't be the sole trainer so I would make sure to involve people who have experience in BK especially if we wanted to go the BK route so any training I did would be part of a team and starting with amateur fights to work up.

I will be creating a heavy sparring culture by that time so I will be fighting on that level with them and testing the methods and bringing in boxers and others, and I wouldn't put someone in there unless they got to a good level first and I and others who had fought felt they could do it.
It is just an idea at this point and depends on me having a school in future and creating that sparring culture.

I don't have enough time to commit that level of training to be entering fights at this stage so I won't do it just to prove a point and I'm not going to do it unless I could give 100% to it. But contributing training as part of a team may be possible in future.

I have shot holes in everything he has said so hard he's just ignoring me now. I even posted a video showing a boxing technique that could very easily be related to WC.


I didn't watch all the videos in his style vs style match ups, but the boxer was very low skill level. He's unable to recognize that.

In style vs style matchups, you can't match someone who is a high level boxer against a low level MT, as it's not a fair matchup. Of course shitty MT guy is going to get his ass kicked.

You haven't shot holes in anything.
You just have a limited, stereotype of WC and haven't seen the real thing so when you do see it like Alan Orrs guys or Ferg using WC techniques or strategy (crossover or not) you don't know what to do.
WC has enough cross over with boxing, dirty boxing and MT that it working when pressure tested is not surprising in any way.