The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[AndyMaBobs]

Ferguson happened chump.
Deal with it.
And no, its not just Muay Thai.
Some of the hand traps cross over yes but bottom line WC works but with a difference also to MT in application.

Imagine trying to prove me wrong with the exact videos I'm referencing. He's clearly new at it, and if it took him an entire career in other martial arts before wing chun became useful I don't know what to tell you.

I've tried with you, but you are either being willfully ignorant or delusional. The fact that you are incapable of handling any sort of disagreement without getting hostile speaks volumes.

Go to an MMA gym and actually train for a few years and see how much of your wing chun is actually useful, go be the change you want to see seeing as you have 20 years of wing chun apologetics behind you

 

[AndyMaBobs]

If you have to reach to wmma doesn't that say enough? The level is very low.

Despite boxing being a huge global combat sport around the world with probably 10000x the opportunity as WC to cross over since they spar and compete, the lack of successful boxers in MMA is a huge void.

We dont see any, not even lower ranked boxers who make peanuts and would stand to gain by crossing over. It just doesn't happen.

25 years in, the dude who entered UFC 1 with one boxing glove still had about as much success as any pure boxer in MMA who tried to cross over.

Pure boxing is a supplement that wrestlers adapt in MMA that's all.
Let's not pretend that pure boxers are any more proven in MMA than WC guys even though they are atheletes and compete etc
The style fails to produce fighters that can cross over as a base.

Except for Holly Holm, consensus best womens boxer of all time who beat Ronda Rousey.

WMMA level is higher than any sort of wing chun level.

<{dayum}>

yup its mental

Remember guys, Holly Holm, not a pure boxer who crossed over, but Tony Ferguson is TOTALLY a wing chun guy:


Why is why this thread of wing chun enthusiasts think his wing chun isn't good

 

[Hotora86]

yup its mental

Glad I haven't gone down this path with Karate. Granted, I am still pretty obsessed and still keep up that thread with Karate blackbelts (its even in my sig) BUT I've become disillusioned over time and I even view my original Shotokan style with... some disappointment. And don't even get me started on WKF aka "Olympic Karate"! Ugh.

I still think that Karate can be a great starting art, decent for self-defense and a nice supplement for MMA (depending on the style and coach obv) but I would never ever claim Karate to be "superior" or "essential". It's just another MA, take what's good and drop what's bad.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Glad I haven't gone down this path with Karate. Granted, I am still pretty obsessed and still keep up that thread with Karate blackbelts (its even in my sig) BUT I've become disillusioned over time and I even view my original Shotokan style with... some disappointment. And don't even get me started on WKF aka "Olympic Karate"! Ugh.

I still think that Karate can be a great starting style, decent for self-defense and a nice supplement for MMA (depending on the style and coach obv) but I would never ever claim Karate to be "superior" or "essential". It's just another MA, take what's good and drop what's bad.

At least karate actually works! There's literally hundreds of guys in your thread dedicated to black belts in MMA. I obviously have issues with karate but there is an actual sport behind it that allows for athletes to grow.

You're not having to look at Tony Ferguson fucking about with a wing chun dummy, and highlight reels that are mostly training and movie clips intercut with clips of Ferguson literally just punching, and throwing upward, reverse and spinning elbows that are all stapled of muay thai abd occassionally hand trapping, which is also Muay Thai... WHICH TONY FERGUSON TRAINED FOR LITERAL YEARS.

He definitely learned that shit from wing chun tho, he definitely didn't learn it from Billy Fonua...

 

[aerius]

Ferguson happened chump.
Deal with it.
And no, its not just Muay Thai.
Some of the hand traps cross over yes but bottom line WC works but with a difference also to MT in application.

You don't know shit about Muay Thai, or any other combat sport for that matter.

 

[shincheckin]

Yes this is all basic stuff. We don't do the parry with the opposite arm on the inside since it obviously leaves that side unprotected to a counter.
We will do same side parry which is call Pak sau ('sau' meaning hand, 'pak' meaning slapping).

But you fundamentally don't understand Wing Chun . The clip you posted shows the difference with boxing. In WC we are not interested in staying at range and playing tag with the hands. It is about intercepting and simultaneous counter attack when you step in. The range and the timing is different and much faster than in boxing if done correctly.
Of course you could argue that stepping in close creates different problems against a grappler but that is another issue and would apply even more to the MT clinch since in WC we don't clinch and hold but control and parry and hit.
A good explanation of the difference between the more static and passive or one-two boxing parry approach you showed vs the simultaneous intercepting approach of WC (JKD means "the way of the intercepting fist" and this technique is classic Wing Chun) is here.

Much more practical although essentially the same as boxing parrying, we can leave it to overlapping technique

In WC we are not interested in staying at range and playing tag with the hands

I would think this statement would apply more to WC and not boxing. As WC is all about hand trapping which is in punching range, and then remaining there why executing multiple attacks. Even working the wooden dummy, your essentially standing right in front, I know there are side steps that can be done.

I believe this is the original school in Torrance (one of my mt coaches trained there, not the guy I posted earlier). If anyone is standing at range and playing tag with their hands it would be the guys at the beginning. I know there's more to WC than just this but I believe it's a standard drill.


Boxing is the art of hit and not get hit, it is the most elusive style of fighting that exists. Take a look at these clips if you haven't seen them already. Obviously not all of this will work outside of boxing, but what I want you to see is its elusiveness.

 

[TheMaster]

Imagine trying to prove me wrong with the exact videos I'm referencing. He's clearly new at it, and if it took him an entire career in other martial arts before wing chun became useful I don't know what to tell you.

I've tried with you, but you are either being willfully ignorant or delusional. The fact that you are incapable of handling any sort of disagreement without getting hostile speaks volumes.

Go to an MMA gym and actually train for a few years and see how much of your wing chun is actually useful, go be the change you want to see seeing as you have 20 years of wing chun apologetics behind you

His Wing Chun is not good from a pure art perspective.
Like I said , the techniques and strategy he uses show the WC approach works at close range.
It doesn't matter and neither is it surprising he trained boxing and MT first since that is what is widely available in MMA.
If there is crossover with MT and dirty boxing with WC, which there is then that aspect of the art has already been shown to work.
So we are talking about the unique or different additional aspects of WC

Imagine trying to argue with me, then actually supporting what I am saying and say some of WC works but not even realize it?

Yes,I am keen to train someone to use WC as a standup base in MMA. For myself self defense was always the priority so even the addition of sparring is done with this in mind.


And the failure of pure boxers in MMA (no,wmma is not the same) is a huge void you can't explain
As we all agree, there are millions of them and they spar and condition themselves. Yet you can't name even one male boxer in 25 years who crossed over successfully using boxing as a base.

And guess what, most of those moves are in WC also. So again you're showing that it works if trained live.

Ferguson shows additional skills which reflect more the WC approach including the parrying entries with 'slapping parries'.
You don't know shit about the overlap of MT and WC.
Thailand is not far from Southern China where WC originated they very likely have a similar root which is why many overlapping techniques.

Much more practical although essentially the same as boxing parrying, we can leave it to overlapping technique

Stepping in with Pak sau to intercept is not 'boxing'. You cant even do it properly with those pillows, WC is done for barefist it crosses over much better to MMA gloves.
If you want to claim that techniques like a step in Pak sau is overlapping with boxing then we might as well say say 50% of MT with the hands and elbows is just "WC with sparring".

 

[AndyMaBobs]

His Wing Chun is not good from a pure art perspective.
Like I said , the techniques and strategy he uses show the WC approach works at close range.
It doesn't matter and neither is it surprising he trained boxing and MT first since that is what is widely available in MMA.
If there is crossover with MT and dirty boxing with WC, which there is then that aspect of the art has already been shown to work.
So we are talking about the unique or different additional aspects of WC

Imagine trying to argue with me, then actually supporting what I am saying and say some of WC works but not even realize it?

Yes,I am keen to train someone to use WC as a standup base in MMA. For myself self defense was always the priority so even the addition of sparring is done with this in mind.

For fucks sake. I never said none of wing chun works, why are you incapable of reading?

You look for an argument every step of the way, I cba with this anymore.

I look forward to the videos of you or a student using wing chun successfully in MMA sparring and competition

 

[aerius]

And guess what, most of those moves are in WC also. So again you're showing that it works if trained live.

Ferguson shows additional skills which reflect more the WC approach including the parrying entries with 'slapping parries'.
You don't know shit about the overlap of MT and WC.
Thailand is not far from Southern China where WC originated they very likely have a similar root which is why many overlapping techniques.

Wrong. Every Wing Chun technique you've pointed out which actually worked in live combat is a poor 3rd rate imitation of common, proven techniques in various combat sports. Then you just straight up lie and prove that you didn't watch Karuhat's MT fight by claiming that Ferguson shows additional skills such as parrying entries with slapping parries. Which Karuhat does 10 times better than Ferguson, and anyone who actually watched the video can see that.

Despite boxing being a huge global combat sport around the world with probably 10000x the opportunity as WC to cross over since they spar and compete, the lack of successful boxers in MMA is a huge void.

We dont see any, not even lower ranked boxers who make peanuts and would stand to gain by crossing over. It just doesn't happen.

Once again, you reveal your complete lack of knowledge. Cody Garbrandt was a 32-1 amateur boxer who crossed over into MMA and became a UFC champion. Stipe Miocic who is the current UFC HW champ is also a Golden Gloves boxing champ.

 

[II Muchetto II]

Why the vendetta against boxing? There have been a few that have come from a boxing background. But why does it matter? Why would a boxer come to MMA when they can make a living in boxing? It's a different sport.

The point is, do MMA fighters train boxing, the answer is yes. Pretty much all MMA fighters have boxing coaches. It is without question a major part of MMA. Just because loads of boxers don't come to MMA doesn't mean anything.

Really most stand up specialists don't transition to MMA. You have a few like wonerboy, page, machida etc. But these are mostly specialist in obscure stand UK arts that you would struggle to make a living out of, so if they want to be in full time combat sports, they make the move to MMA.
It's mostly wrestlers and BJJ guys that come over from a specialist background. Although even less so now with BJJ because like boxing, they can now make a living out of just doing BJJ. So if you have spent your whole life training 1 art and can make a living out of it, why would you move?

The question really relivent is, what arts do MMA fighters train, these arts are boxing, muay Thai, wrestling and BJJ. The MMA fighters see Tony ferguson working on the wodern dummy and they just think he is messing about. No one really thinks that he has a WC coach, he is just having play about. It's not even part of his training camp, it's his version of working a speed ball for the cameras

As much as you don't like it, WC is not suplimented by MMA gyms. The argument of no boxers in MMA and using it as a comparison to back up no WC practitioners in MMA is not really relevant or comparable.

 

[shincheckin]

His Wing Chun is not good from a pure art perspective.
Like I said , the techniques and strategy he uses show the WC approach works at close range.
It doesn't matter and neither is it surprising he trained boxing and MT first since that is what is widely available in MMA.
If there is crossover with MT and dirty boxing with WC, which there is then that aspect of the art has already been shown to work.
So we are talking about the unique or different additional aspects of WC

Imagine trying to argue with me, then actually supporting what I am saying and say some of WC works but not even realize it?

Yes,I am keen to train someone to use WC as a standup base in MMA. For myself self defense was always the priority so even the addition of sparring is done with this in mind.


And the failure of pure boxers in MMA (no,wmma is not the same) is a huge void you can't explain
As we all agree, there are millions of them and they spar and condition themselves. Yet you can't name even one male boxer in 25 years who crossed over successfully using boxing as a base.



And guess what, most of those moves are in WC also. So again you're showing that it works if trained live.

Ferguson shows additional skills which reflect more the WC approach including the parrying entries with 'slapping parries'.
You don't know shit about the overlap of MT and WC.
Thailand is not far from Southern China where WC originated they very likely have a similar root which is why many overlapping techniques.



Stepping in with Pak sau to intercept is not 'boxing'. You cant even do it properly with those pillows, WC is done for barefist it crosses over much better to MMA gloves.
If you want to claim that techniques like a step in Pak sau is overlapping with boxing then we might as well say say 50% of MT with the hands and elbows is just "WC with sparring".

Pak sau sounds alot like WC way of saying parry the jab and jab with your own. This is a staple of any sport that involves punching. It's done with pillows all the time.

I don't see how you cannot relate this to your pak sau.


Regarding your statements of boxing not carrying over to mma?

Mma striking is a hand dominant style of striking. Yeah they use everything but its hand heavy. All the punching techniques they are using are boxing.

I think you may have meant why aren't there any high level pro boxers transitioning into mma?
Well they are 2 different sports, someone great at boxing can't just fight mma without spending years of training bjj, mt, and wrestling, to even have a solid enough base to compete, at least to have a shot at high level pro anyways. But dude c'mon so many mma guys cross train boxing, it's a staple of mma. Boxing is 100% a part of mma. Its probably also worth mentioning that much like me, the boxing community has a bias against mma.

Here's the head coach of Roy Jones jr. Gym in Vegas. Here's randy couture working with him

Gray Maynard

And myself, you can see me doing a "pak sau " at 1:45 in 16oz pillows

 

[shincheckin]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention a old buddy of mine. He boxed most his life, had like 50 amateur fights, and is 6-0 pro mma. He's primarily relying on his boxing skills, although obviously he has cross trained

 

[shincheckin]

Score 1 for WC. This guy is a reputable boxing coach. I have seen him cornering pro fighters on TV before. Still it's a single parry rather than multiple with the same hand, but he is "reaching across " to parry the jab

 

[shincheckin]

You're not having to look at Tony Ferguson fucking about with a wing chun dummy, and highlight reels that are mostly training and movie clips intercut

This is all the Bruce Lee guys got going on too. Check out Bruce's fight! Movie clip, movie clip, bag work, nunchuck ping pong

 

[TheMaster]

I agree with your statement here. I really do. But, I can't see it ever happening. It would be great if it does. MMA is all about evolution, so maybe we will, and I hope it does.
Someone like yourself can walk into any MMA club, start training MMA, join in on the drills, and when it comes to sparring, you can try any style you want. You can test you own WC style against various different styles (because everyone in a MMA club usually have different backgrounds and bring a different problem to the table).

I mean this respectively, but have you done this at all, to better test your theories. You seem to have a good open approach to how you want WC to evolve and believe that it could have a strong place in evolution of MMA.

I know you've talked about teaching a class, but have you done a bit of cross training and used your WC techniques, and if you have, how did you get on, what did you find that worked and what did you feel it was lacking?

I have done some sparring sometimes with a guy who had a boxing background who trained with us.
As I mentioned, a certain amount of 'self defence WC' is not possible to spar so automatically its going to be more like combat sports.
What I found problematic is pretty much what you would expect from the limitations of a style that mainly does chi sau at close range;

-Being at range and dealing with long range crosses.

-Dealing with hooks; although these are done closer there is a lack of exposure to them due to WC guys mainly throwing straights so you are not used to the timing. One of the things I will train fighters is to include the WC hook from the beginning rather than waiting several years to teach which is the norm as ridiculous as it sounds since it is only in the 3rd or advanced final wing chun set.

-Dealing with good kickers

-Not an issue for me, but most WC guys I sparred could not deal with Judo throws since most non-grapplers don't have awareness of the importance of hips for throwing and thus don't sprawl or adjust properly.

So basically the problems you would expect through lack of exposure to other arts.
What we see is a style that has not really embraced the MMA revolution and is so far left behind as a result. What happens when that style starts to adapt it will look different.

-The example is long range fighting. My adaptation since this was not traditionally trained in WC was to use the principles for a straight punch at a distance with using the arm to control if possible. A lot like the 'fist fencing' of old time BK boxing. This works because you don't want to stay in boxing range and play their game. So it would be staying at distance and hitting single power shots with hip rotation and a step using the vertical fist. You can also do the WC parries with the arms at long range. Chi sau skills help this alot.
Honestly alot of it ended up looking like this,which is why I believe the WC bareknuckle connection is real, the parrallels when you adjust WC to long-range are too many.



And I'm not just saying a similarity, even the stance is similar and many of the moves he shows have names in WC. You see the picture of John L Sullivan he is even standing in the typical centreline guard position they do in WC.

-Or it would be looking for openings to close and get into 'dirty boxing' range which is where chi sau is done. But not to get into a boxing fight and stand there since this is not what we are training.

 

[zapataxiv]

Of course you see the pair O’Lels
John sullivan was a pure WC guy. Thats why he is using the wing chun stance. Should have seen him fight it was just parry city. Plus he didnt just play hand tag, he was pak sauing these chi sauers all day.

Too bad cus, futch and freddie burned up all his wooden dummies and buried his WC lineage to promote the lie that boxing is a complete martial art...

 

[TheMaster]

Of course you see the pair O’Lels
John sullivan was a pure WC guy. Thats why he is using the wing chun stance. Should have seen him fight it was just parry city. Plus he didnt just play hand tag, he was pak sauing these chi sauers all day.

Too bad cus, futch and freddie burned up all his wooden dummies and buried his WC lineage to promote the lie that boxing is a complete martial art...

Modern 'boxing' is obviously incomplete which is why it has to be renovated hugely to have a chance in MMA.

But I am simply pointing out that when I have tried to use WC principles at range, since I don't do boxing for me it has been picking one shot power punches at range and long range parrying with the forearm or hand to step in and out, or else getting in very close to in-fighting.
Either way I won't be standing at punching range like a boxer.

Anyway, the parrallels have been discussed before everything from the stance to the vertical fist. Whether or not there is a connection to me it adheres to the principles more than modern boxing if you want to do WC at long range.

http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/armando-sainz-revival-bare-knuckle-boxing.htm


Don't care too much what the opinion on this is since no one here has WC or BK experience. I expect it to be flamed but from experience with sparring it becomes something like this.

From article, which I have also found through experience:

"I have come to understand the importance of retaining that early longer range Western Long-Bridge Boxing. My experience has been that without its influence, a three to eight year practitioner of Wing Chun is predominantly a mid to short range fighter who finds kickers and anyone who fights at, or just outside of, boxing range to be problematic. I say this with all due respect not wanting to ruffle feathers, but I’ve touched hands with many of the major lines’ practitioners only to find them wanting. They could not deal with someone who kept them out of their comfort zone. In other words, I found that their interpretation of Wing Chun was somehow limited by tradition. It lacked presence and innovation...

Teaching the Long-Bridge aspects of Wing Chun is first. To me it’s all Wing Chun but I emphasize the Long-Bridge because of its brutal effectiveness. Its emphasis is on destroying the attacker efficiently and quickly at a longer range than is traditionally taught to 99% of Wing Chun practitioners... The footwork is not different than Wing Chun, just larger. Much of the training is efficient interception, footwork and straight, leg-powered punches with simultaneous deflection. Keeping your head away from the action and greater mobility is key. After they are proficient they go into what we call mid-range (where most Wing Chun lives) and then at higher levels to short-bridge or very close quarters training."

 

[shincheckin]

Modern 'boxing' is obviously incomplete which is why it has to be renovated hugely to have

What are you talking about?

Then why do top level mma fighters cross train pure boxing?

If you just left your comments about WC and didn't say things that make no sense like this you probably wouldn't be getting flamed so hard

 

[Woldog]

Basically if Wing Chun was worth a fucking thing it'd be used. It's barely used by any professional MMA fighter for the simple fact it lack practical use. If it was so fucking good people would have been continuing to use it. it got made redundant by all the other martial arts that were more effective. It's not some secret super special and dangerous art of fighting. It has it's merits but not enough for people to actually go and learn it.

 

[TheMaster]

Basically if Wing Chun was worth a fucking thing it'd be used. It's barely used by any professional MMA fighter for the simple fact it lack practical use. If it was so fucking good people would have been continuing to use it. it got made redundant by all the other martial arts that were more effective. It's not some secret super special and dangerous art of fighting. It has it's merits but not enough for people to actually go and learn it.

No. If you actually read a post on this thread you wouldn't say that.

Basically they don't spar, so it is not used.
When they do start to spar, it will be used.