The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[shincheckin]

One way a cross guard parry or block is done in WC.



Usually it is done as a transitional movement to enable counter attack.
But can also be done maintaining the position as a guard to block punches.
Again, the more WC is trained live the more we will see styles and variations of it like we see in boxing rather than just the stereotyped straight blast version that is usually shown.

I don't agree with multiple parrys with the same hand, against different strikes, I'm not going to parry a jab cross by parrying the jab with my right hand, and then reach my same right hand to parry his cross. It's too slow and opens you up.

 

[II Muchetto II]

One way a cross guard parry or block is done in WC.



Usually it is done as a transitional movement to enable counter attack.
But can also be done maintaining the position as a guard to block punches.
Again, the more WC is trained live the more we will see styles and variations of it like we see in boxing rather than just the stereotyped straight blast version that is usually shown.

So just for clarity. Is WC training about training for self defence situations where you will be up against untrained people?

 

[TheMaster]

I don't agree with multiple parrys with the same hand, against different strikes, I'm not going to parry a jab cross by parrying the jab with my right hand, and then reach my same right hand to parry his cross. It's too slow and opens you up.

How is it too slow?
Depending on the position it is often the fastest way to counter and close distance since the arm is already extended and is in position for the second parry.

Anyway, like I said this is just a variation. You can train it like that and it can work especially against a quick one-two but there are other possibilities. I was mainly showing it as a way that the cross arm guard can be used to parry as a transitional movement.
Personally I prefer similar to what they call a crab guard or the 52 blocks type of cross guard. But this way can work as well.
Much of WC is a parry and counter system which is what chi sau develops so just because you cant do it doesnt mean it can't be done especially in close.

So just for clarity. Is WC training about training for self defence situations where you will be up against untrained people?

As we have discussed, WC is normally trained vs WC or someone simulating a generic punch. We need to bring in more high level boxers and others to spar and see how the system evolves and adapts to deal with them, the way boxing has had to adapt to work in MMA against all these different styles.
Then things start to get much more interesting.

 

[shincheckin]

How is it too slow?
Depending on the position it is often the fastest way to counter and close distance since the arm is already extended and is in position for the second parry.

Anyway, like I said this is just a variation. You can train it like that and it can work especially against a quick one-two but there are other possibilities. I was mainly showing it as a way that the cross arm guard can be used to parry as a transitional movement.
Personally I prefer similar to what they call a crab guard or the 52 blocks type of cross guard. But this way can work as well.
Much of WC is a parry and counter system which is what chi sau develops so just because you cant do it doesnt mean it can't be done especially in close.



As we have discussed, WC is normally trained vs WC or someone simulating a generic punch. We need to bring in more high level boxers and others to spar and see how the system evolves and adapts to deal with them, the way boxing has had to adapt to work in MMA against all these different styles.
Then things start to get much more interesting.

Because you have to, reach, and cover more distance. When you parry, you parry on the same side of the punch. This guy shows how parrying his jab with his left hand leaves him open for the cross.

 

[TheMaster]

Because you have to, reach, and cover more distance. When you parry, you parry on the same side of the punch. This guy shows how parrying his jab with his left hand leaves him open for the cross.

Yes this is all basic stuff. We don't do the parry with the opposite arm on the inside since it obviously leaves that side unprotected to a counter.
We will do same side parry which is call Pak sau ('sau' meaning hand, 'pak' meaning slapping).

But you fundamentally don't understand Wing Chun . The clip you posted shows the difference with boxing. In WC we are not interested in staying at range and playing tag with the hands. It is about intercepting and simultaneous counter attack when you step in. The range and the timing is different and much faster than in boxing if done correctly.
Of course you could argue that stepping in close creates different problems against a grappler but that is another issue and would apply even more to the MT clinch since in WC we don't clinch and hold but control and parry and hit.
A good explanation of the difference between the more static and passive or one-two boxing parry approach you showed vs the simultaneous intercepting approach of WC (JKD means "the way of the intercepting fist" and this technique is classic Wing Chun) is here.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Yes this is all basic stuff. We don't do the parry with the opposite arm on the inside since it obviously leaves that side unprotected to a counter.
We will do same side parry which is call Pak sau ('sau' meaning hand, 'pak' meaning slapping).

But you fundamentally don't understand Wing Chun . The clip you posted shows the difference with boxing. In WC we are not interested in staying at range and playing tag with the hands. It is about intercepting and simultaneous counter attack when you step in. The range and the timing is different and much faster than in boxing if done correctly.
Of course you could argue that stepping in close creates different problems against a grappler but that is another issue and would apply even more to the MT clinch since in WC we don't clinch and hold but control and parry and hit.
A good explanation of the difference between the more static and passive or one-two boxing parry approach you showed vs the simultaneous intercepting approach of WC (JKD means "the way of the intercepting fist" and this technique is classic Wing Chun) is here.

I have an issue with you saying 'playing tag with the hands' because its implying that you guys hit harder and more seriously than boxers, and that's just not true. Those multiple slapping parries as shincheckin describes don't work

 

[TheMaster]

I have an issue with you saying 'playing tag with the hands' because its implying that you guys hit harder and more seriously than boxers, and that's just not true. Those multiple slapping parries as shincheckin describes don't work

Which multiple slapping parries?
The example I gave shows one parry and one hit at the same time.
Sometimes you might do two parries and hit at the same time as the second one. Rarely if ever more than two,and most often just one parry as you go in.

Where I say in boxing you 'play tag with the hands' you are standing at range which means the person can jab again or cross and you usually end up getting hit more often.
The position and the range didn't change.
We want to go in and not give a chance to be jabbed all night but to counter and then go on the offensive and either finish it there, or disengage after causing significant damage.
Obviously we need to wait for the right timing and opening to go in.
To stand at range and just parry without doing anything or countering or changing position is anathema to a Wing Chun man.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Where I say in boxing you 'play tag with the hands' you are standing at range which means the person can jab again or cross and you usually end up getting hit more often.

Unless you're an in-fighter.

Also... that's also the reality of dealing with a competent opponent. If you went there and tried to wing chun that same boxer you wouldn't overwhelm him from being at close range, you'd get laid out at worst, or at best he just pivots out and away.

If wing chun were pressure tested more, it would likely end up fighting at more of a range too, because that's the reality of being against someone who actually knows how to fight

 

[TheMaster]

Unless you're an in-fighter.

Also... that's also the reality of dealing with a competent opponent. If you went there and tried to wing chun that same boxer you wouldn't overwhelm him from being at close range, you'd get laid out at worst, or at best he just pivots out and away.

If wing chun were pressure tested more, it would likely end up fighting at more of a range too, because that's the reality of being against someone who actually knows how to fight

No, it would be elbows at close range and maybe uppercuts and a collar tie and unless he knew how to deal with them he would get hurt.
Unless he tried to back out.
Boxing has to become dirty boxing to work in MMA in close. They don't have in-fighting skills that can deal with elbows or clinch work otherwise.

WC needs to be pressure tested more and the system will become much better and have a chance to flourish.
Like if boxing was taught as a TMA you wouldnt have a true sense of it's effectiveness.

The WC approach is to wait for them to come in usually as a counter attack system. Making it work at longer range or so called 'lomgfist' boxing can be done and is one of the adaptations we would expect if it was adjusted to work in combat sports. Its also about the reality of ring fighting compared to real life where people come in to attack you not go in and out.

 

[zapataxiv]

@TheMaster
You vastly overrate your understanding of boxing and it leads to false conclusions.
Alot of the things you claimed as being the opossite of wing chun are negatives in boxing as well.
One reason why it appears that guys are “playing tag” is because it is hard to run game on a someone who isnt a compliant dummy. Especially so if both guys are trying to Win and of equal skill level.

Thats one of the reasons why you read about old school bare knuckle matches lasting 2 hours, or gracies talking about challenge matches lasting for 90 mins.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

No, it would be elbows at close range and maybe uppercuts and a collar tie and unless he knew how to deal with them he would get hurt.
Unless he tried to back out.
Boxing has to become dirty boxing to work in MMA in close. They don't have in-fighting skills that can deal with elbows or clinch work otherwise.

WC needs to be pressure tested more and the system will become much better and have a chance to flourish.
Like if boxing was taught as a TMA you wouldnt have a true sense of it's effectiveness.

The WC approach is to wait for them to come in usually as a counter attack system. Making it work at longer range or so called 'lomgfist' boxing can be done and is one of the adaptations we would expect if it was adjusted to work in combat sports. Its also about the reality of ring fighting compared to real life where people come in to attack you not go in and out.

I think this is a bit of a delusion. This is all hypothetical, in actuality a boxer is going to rip out of there just by virtue of being better athletically and more accustom to getting hurt.

If you were talking about Muay Thai I'd be more inclined to agree, because MT is actually tested.

I am trying to meet you half way here, but I feel like I'm getting the exact same TMA apologetics I've heard for 10 years

 

[zapataxiv]

I think this is a bit of a delusion. This is all hypothetical, in actuality a boxer is going to rip out of there just by virtue of being better athletically and more accustom to getting hurt.

If you were talking about Muay Thai I'd be more inclined to agree, because MT is actually tested.

I am trying to meet you half way here, but I feel like I'm getting the exact same TMA apologetics I've heard for 10 years

You are
I asked him before but he sounds like a SLD wash out. They are a TCMA mcdojo/cult in the usa and they have adopted a way of learning basic or novice level of actual martial arts and then using it to discredit them. Or adopt terms.

I have herd gems like people doing “reps” of meditation....

 

[AndyMaBobs]

You are
I asked him before but he sounds like a SLD wash out. They are a TCMA mcdojo/cult in the usa and they have adopted a way of learning basic or novice level of actual martial arts and then using it to discredit them. Or adopt terms.

I have herd gems like people doing “reps” of meditation....

I think it's quite easy for martial arts to become cult like or out right cults, believe it or not method acting schools have a similar mentality to them as well. It ultimately ends up being faith

 

[TheMaster]

I think this is a bit of a delusion. This is all hypothetical, in actuality a boxer is going to rip out of there just by virtue of being better athletically and more accustom to getting hurt.

If you were talking about Muay Thai I'd be more inclined to agree, because MT is actually tested.

I am trying to meet you half way here, but I feel like I'm getting the exact same TMA apologetics I've heard for 10 years

Yes you have a point, I am not talking about WC hobbyists who don't spar I am talking about guys who are conditioned and do spar.
In which case the parallels with MT would be there with differences also.
But ultimately what do I get by convincing you or those like you?
You show a condescending attitude and the reward is...you get to learn even more methods once you know or have it 'proven' that WC works? Is it worth it?

Like I said the secret is already out with Ferguson. If you dont see it then it's not my fault, stick with boxing, a style which rides the coatails of wrestling in MMA to even have a seat at the dance. Pure boxing is just a small part of MMA and has to be heavily modified.
We don't see ANY elite boxers in MMA. NONE.

Why not I just train a wrestler in Wing Chun and see if he whoops the wrestler who does boxing since that's who we see using boxing anyway in MMA not 'boxers'.

Or why not for WC guys we just do more sparring and conditioning ourselves, bringing in some boxers and kickboxers to adapt the art , cross train grappling
and add our 'illegal' strikes which apparrantly don't work, then go about our lives without a chip on our shoulder but having a complete self defence system?

Yes, Wing Chun has lost its rep as the ultimate fighting system in the last two decades but maybe all the better since people underrate it.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Yes you have a point, I am not talking about WC hobbyists who don't spar I am talking about guys who are conditioned and do spar.
In which case the parallels with MT would be there with differences also.
But ultimately what do I get by convincing you or those like you?
You show a condescending attitude and the reward is...you get to learn even more methods once you know or have it 'proven' that WC works? Is it worth it?

Like I said the secret is already out with Ferguson. If you dont see it then it's not my fault, stick with boxing, a style which rides the coatails of wrestling in MMA to even have a seat at the dance. Pure boxing is just a small part of MMA and has to be heavily modified.
We don't see ANY elite boxers in MMA. NONE.

If you actually thought this, you wouldn't still be arguing here.

And no, I'm not condescending towards you, I'm challenging you, there is a difference. I'll agree others have been condescending to you here, but I'm not. The issue is that you have a chip on your shoulder when you are disagreed with.

The Tony Ferguson example is a bad one, because he's literally doing hand traps from muay thai - and if you actually see him doing wing chun forms and using the dummy, he clearly doesn't actually know wing chun that well, he looks like someone learning it, and he is. Arguing that the secret is out with Tony Ferguson, is like arguing the secret of Wing Chun is out in Muay Thai because Muangthai fights.

As for 'we don't see any elite boxers in MMA. None' This is a silly argument, because the reason is economical, if you're a world class amateur boxer, it doesn't make sense to give up a career in boxing for MMA. Also Holly Holm is literally ranked as the all time greatest womens pro boxer ever, AND is an MMA champion. So no, it is not true that there are no elite boxers in MMA.

I don't see why you act so offended by the sport of boxing.

Why not I just train a wrestler in Wing Chun and see if he whoops the wrestler who does boxing since that's who we see using boxing anyway in MMA not 'boxers'.

Or why not for WC guys we just do more sparring and conditioning ourselves, bringing in some boxers and kickboxers to adapt the art , cross train grappling
and add our 'illegal' strikes which apparrantly don't work, then go about our lives without a chip on our shoulder but having a complete self defence system?

Yes, Wing Chun has lost its rep as the ultimate fighting system in the last two decades but maybe all the better since people underrate it.

I'm going to be honest, this entire paragraph is barely legible.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

You have been on this train for 20 years, you've got posts from 20 years ago arguing the exact same thing you are now - and it hasn't happened. That speaks more to the operation of your mind than anything else

 

[TheMaster]

You have been on this train for 20 years, you've got posts from 20 years ago arguing the exact same thing you are now - and it hasn't happened. That speaks more to the operation of your mind than anything else

Ferguson happened chump.
Deal with it.
And no, its not just Muay Thai.
Some of the hand traps cross over yes but bottom line WC works but with a difference also to MT in application.

 

[Hotora86]

You have been on this train for 20 years, you've got posts from 20 years ago arguing the exact same thing you are now - and it hasn't happened. That speaks more to the operation of your mind than anything else

<{dayum}>

 

[TheMaster]

As for 'we don't see any elite boxers in MMA. None' This is a silly argument, because the reason is economical, if you're a world class amateur boxer, it doesn't make sense to give up a career in boxing for MMA. Also Holly Holm is literally ranked as the all time greatest womens pro boxer ever, AND is an MMA champion. So no, it is not true that there are no elite boxers in MMA.

If you have to reach to wmma doesn't that say enough? The level is very low.

Despite boxing being a huge global combat sport around the world with probably 10000x the opportunity as WC to cross over since they spar and compete, the lack of successful boxers in MMA is a huge void.

We dont see any, not even lower ranked boxers who make peanuts and would stand to gain by crossing over. It just doesn't happen.

25 years in, the dude who entered UFC 1 with one boxing glove still had about as much success as any pure boxer in MMA who tried to cross over.

Pure boxing is a supplement that wrestlers adapt in MMA that's all.
Let's not pretend that pure boxers are any more proven in MMA than WC guys even though they are atheletes and compete etc
The style fails to produce fighters that can cross over as a base.

 

[II Muchetto II]

As we have discussed, WC is normally trained vs WC or someone simulating a generic punch. We need to bring in more high level boxers and others to spar and see how the system evolves and adapts to deal with them, the way boxing has had to adapt to work in MMA against all these different styles.
Then things start to get much more interesting.

I agree with your statement here. I really do. But, I can't see it ever happening. It would be great if it does. MMA is all about evolution, so maybe we will, and I hope it does. But I personally feel WC isn't a good enough martial art to be a good base for MMA. I would be happy to train with someone and be inspired to have my mind changed, because I know my lack knowledge in WC really does make me ignorant to the facts.

But, you know I couldn't go into a WC club and do anything other than be respectful and train the art, leaving my art at the door. But someone like yourself, can walk into any MMA club, start training MMA, join in on the drills, and when it comes to sparring, you can try any style you want. You can test you own WC style against various different styles (because everyone in a MMA club usually have different backgrounds and bring a different problem to the table).

I mean this respectively, but have you done this at all, to better test your theories. You seem to have a good open approach to how you want WC to evolve and believe that it could have a strong place in evolution of MMA.

I know you've talked about teaching a class, but have you done a bit of cross training and used your WC techniques, and if you have, how did you get on, what did you find that worked and what did you feel it was lacking?