The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[j123]

As my sambo coach once said, 'yes some of them are probably better on the ground than me, but it doesn't matter because I just killed them' in reference to him demonstrating a hip toss.

That grammar is too good for a Smabo coach, it's more like
"They better on groun... but they fight like suka, not like comrade, So they die. Then we pay police with chain and trake-suit"

 

[shincheckin]

This is another good point, because while I don't like the idea of rolling around on concrete, with the possibility of multiple attackers. Geoff Thompson would probably say, it's life or death who cares?




I've voiced before that I'm not a fan of Master Wong, but he has actually been to my gym, trained and demonstrated with our coaches, and I have more confidence in him than most other wing chun guys, lineage or no.

Exactly and who's to say bjj doesn't use the cement to his advantage......IF this and IF that

 

[shincheckin]

Master Wong is too funny. Honestly I could see the elbow blocks working very good in a street fight. The elbow blocks remind me of the "The Lock" or Crossarm defense in boxing used by Archie Moore.

Its very subtle but Moore does use his elbows to catch punches sometimes and dissuade his opponent from throwing because it hurts like hell while also positioning himself to throw mean intentions on his hooks.
Archie Moores's trainer Hiwatha Grey was a bareknuckle champion I believe.

There's a difference between having a high guard and people punching your elbows, vs intentionally elbow striking incoming punches. If it was valid we'd see it done in the ring as even with gloves you could still injure the hands.

I made a video about using that block in the video you posted.




The key differences between this block in both our videos vs master wongs is......1 is a block.....1 is a strike. The guy is saying to elbow incoming punches, not block them. Its the same concept as punching incoming punches with your own, but with a elbow instead. Rather than blocking the punch.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

@shincheckin still exaggerated as master wongs video is a good crossarm from boxing can be used to intentionally hurt/injure someones hands by catching them. It could even be possible for his elbow throws to work if he or his student get in enough quality live sparring.
Skip to about 1 minute but theres some blocking with using punches here

you are right though that the way to do this should be more block than strike but I do think the concept is very legit to begin with.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

The parries from Moore with his elbows are hard to see but they are there intentionally.

 

[shincheckin]

@shincheckin still exaggerated as master wongs video is a good crossarm from boxing can be used to intentionally hurt/injure someones hands by catching them. It could even be possible for his elbow throws to work if he or his student get in enough quality live sparring.
Skip to about 1 minute but theres some blocking with using punches here

you are right though that the way to do this should be more block than strike but I do think the concept is very legit to begin with.

I'm not on board with it. I think it's possible to elbow the incoming strike. In all seriousness, its possible to spinning back elbow a incoming punch. Its not impossible. Just not practical.

Its possible to block and have your opponent injure himself by punching your elbow. Even a standard double forearm block can have your elbows in a place they could possibly be punched and opponent injure himself.

It's also possible to punch your opponents head, and injure your hand.

I would relate intentionally injuring someone hand by having them punch your elbows, to about the same as intentionally injuring someone hand by having them punch your head. Its possible but not practical. Like hey next time someone tries to punch you, just headbutt their punch and break their hand.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

@shincheckin I'm pretty sure Bas rutten has advocated for lowering your head to break a persons hand (he said he did it to an over agressive sparring partner). Lol I think Bernard Hopkins has done it plenty of times also. Some guys like Wilder and Golovkin would still mess you up very badly if you do that though.

 

[shincheckin]

@shincheckin I'm pretty sure Bas rutten has advocated for lowering your head to break a persons hand (he said he did it to an over agressive sparring partner). Lol I think Bernard Hopkins has done it plenty of times also. Some guys like Wilder and Golovkin would still mess you up very badly if you do that though.

Its possible, but this goes back to a strike vs a block.

You can find B-hop talking about getting hit in the "helmet" here around 4:20.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

That grammar is too good for a Smabo coach, it's more like
"They better on groun... but they fight like suka, not like comrade, So they die. Then we pay police with chain and trake-suit"

That's not far off from his actual verbiage

 

[AndyMaBobs]

You don't headbutt the hand, the idea is that your forehead is the only viable target, and plenty of great fighters did it. Samson Isaan is a very good example.

 

[shincheckin]

You don't headbutt the hand, the idea is that your forehead is the only viable target, and plenty of great fighters did it. Samson Isaan is a very good example.

Right, just like you don't elbow the incoming punch. They punch your elbow when your blocking

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Right, just like you don't elbow the incoming punch. They punch your elbow when your blocking

sure but I'm not arguing in favour of elbowing a hand.

EDIT: Ignore this, I think I misunderstood your reply

 

[shincheckin]

sure but I'm not arguing in favour of elbowing a hand.

EDIT: Ignore this, I think I misunderstood your reply

I'm not arguing in favor of headbutting punches.


Lol yes I just saw the edit


Were on the same page, you don't elbow or headbutt incoming punches. I was using the headbutt analogy for how ridiculous master wongs video was

 

[TheMaster]

Master Wong is too funny. Honestly I could see the elbow blocks working very good in a street fight. The elbow blocks remind me of the "The Lock" or Crossarm defense in boxing used by Archie Moore.

Its very subtle but Moore does use his elbows to catch punches sometimes and dissuade his opponent from throwing because it hurts like hell while also positioning himself to throw mean intentions on his hooks.
Archie Moores's trainer Hiwatha Grey was a bareknuckle champion I believe.

Yes, this is very legit. As you mentioned it comes from bareknuckle. Do it a few times the guy won't want to punch you .
It should be done as a block, but obviously you can move it so the fist hits it.
Fits great for WC approach, better than boxing also because u can come over with an elbow strike as well or you can follow up with various chops, hammer fist or punches or grabs etc

Good breakdown here

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/6/...reverse-engineering-the-lock-history-analysis

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/6/...s-armed-guard-the-lock-part-2-boxing-analysis

It's right that you use it to block punches which is more than enough.
Another variation here



However there are applications from Silat and WC here you strike the hands also and it can work. This would be however if you have a spoling hands approach and instead of just guiding the punches off line you guide them into an elbow.
So it's not just trying to strike the fist but you guide fist onto the elbow with the other hand. It can definitely be done but usually the cross arm block or 'aggressive block' of moving it is enough than to try strike the incoming punch.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

One thing I gotta disagree with you on @TheMaster is the viability of punching in a street fight. If you punch with good knuckle and fist alignment, have conditioned your hands/wrists/elbows, have built a good sense of hand eye coordination, and pick your shots well you shouldn't have much problem with punching for self defense. Elbows are great especially with how devasting they are plus they are much less likely to injure than your hands but you do sacarfice distance and the ability to disengage as quickly from the street altercation.

 

[TheMaster]

One thing I gotta disagree with you on @TheMaster is the viability of punching in a street fight. If you punch with good knuckle and fist alignment, have conditioned your hands/wrists/elbows, have built a good sense of hand eye coordination, and pick your shots well you shouldn't have much problem with punching for self defense. Elbows are great especially with how devasting they are plus they are much less likely to injure than your hands but you do sacarfice distance and the ability to disengage as quickly from the street altercation.

Yes this is true. Depends on the situation. We punch the wallbag filled with small stones in WC to condition the knuckles. But the risk is there still. Old school bk boxing they did not hit full power to protect the hands.

Bas recommends fists in 1 vs 1 and palm strikes if there are two or more opponents since with the chaos it's more likely to miss hit and hurt your hands. He also talks about the headbutting fist move here.



You do lose a bit of range with palms bit not a huge amount.
For elbows, WC prefers them to hooks most of the time although the hook punch is in WC and I think it is way under used and one of the results of lack of sparring. But again, for barefist I think you can hurt your hands and wrist more with hooks since you don't have the tape and glove support so that's likely why straights and elbows are preferred.

 

[shincheckin]

Here's the jkd guys credentials I trained under, not very long though. Maybe 3 months

https://dirtyboxing.com/daniel-sullivan/

Here he is teaching what he calls dirty boxing and I would call fantasy, he's essentially parrying with 1 hand, but he's reaching big time. Parrying 101 is don't reach or move your hands too much as you open yourself up. Rather its best to keep the parry to a minimum. Something like this will never work in reality.

 

[TheMaster]

Here's the jkd guys credentials I trained under, not very long though. Maybe 3 months

https://dirtyboxing.com/daniel-sullivan/

Here he is teaching what he calls dirty boxing and I would call fantasy, he's essentially parrying with 1 hand, but he's reaching big time. Parrying 101 is don't reach or move your hands too much as you open yourself up. Rather its best to keep the parry to a minimum. Something like this will never work in reality.

Yes that is total bs. But I've never seen that before and don't know where he got it. It's definitely not from WC and I never saw that in Kali or Silat either.

Honestly it looks like some kind of drill for timing maybe for knife work for slashing or cutting the arm that someone decided to make empty hand and 'attacking the fist' so looks dumb.
There is alot of misunderatanding and with knife work it is worse because much harder to test.
You are definitely good at finding various bs out there but be clear it has nothing to do with WC.
I note also he is a BJJ blackbelt (although irrelevant here) and a certified US Muay Thai association coach so one would think he should know better.

 

[TheMaster]

One way a cross guard parry or block is done in WC.



Usually it is done as a transitional movement to enable counter attack.
But can also be done maintaining the position as a guard to block punches.
Again, the more WC is trained live the more we will see styles and variations of it like we see in boxing rather than just the stereotyped straight blast version that is usually shown.

 

[shincheckin]

Yes that is total bs. But I've never seen that before and don't know where he got it. It's definitely not from WC and I never saw that in Kali or Silat either.

Honestly it looks like some kind of drill for timing maybe for knife work for slashing or cutting the arm that someone decided to make empty hand and 'attacking the fist' so looks dumb.
There is alot of misunderatanding and with knife work it is worse because much harder to test.
You are definitely good at finding various bs out there but be clear it has nothing to do with WC.
I note also he is a BJJ blackbelt (although irrelevant here) and a certified US Muay Thai association coach so one would think he should know better.

Well BJJ you don't have to compete to earn belts. BJJ is harder to water down than striking.

As far as his senior full instructor certification with the TBA. All you need to be able to do is a like 18 hit combo on the pads or something along those lines. I wouldn't classify the guy as a reputable MT coach in the US. I have met others that were very poor at MT with the same or similar certifications. The TBA is a legit organization, they hold fights and stuff too. But their certification is more business practice. They took a TMA curriculum and applied it to muay thai. From a business perspective it's a good idea. And it definitely helped grow and promote muay thai in the US.

You can gauge the guys skill level here