The refugee discussion, V 1.0

[IDL]

I actually think that nations are, to an extent, natural expressions of humanity. They are not bad. I am against nationalist ideologues because they are one of the most virulent groups to ever plague mankind, as people and as a collection of ideas too.

I contradict what you said because your line of argument is 1:1 a fascist argument. They were against cosmopolitans with literally the exact same arguments, the same line of reasoning. Every tyrant needs people blindly dedicated to national unity. The EU, on the other hand, is a broader balancing mechanism that limits the crap each local politician can enforce on his population.

ON TOPIC, any solution on this immigration needs to be on a EU level. If we were a true federation, we might have a chance of tackling this problem. But every nation fending for itself is ultimately catastrophic: Refugees want to reach rich countries, rich countries want the poor states to keep them, poor countries dump them illegaly on Germany (or Macedonia, in the case of Greece), everyone loses.

But what is preventing us from having a true federation is insane people like you, very common in the right wing. How else can the local corrupt politicians keep their power?

right, so nations like Sweden should be dissolved because Hitler, or something like that. It's for the citizens safety, and the people in power are totally not doing it out of their own power seeking motivations

A word to the wise.. The people in power are ruthless and power hungry despite their warm fuzzy messaging and facades. They are driven by the same forces as Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and any others. POWER. They will think nothing of killing millions if there is strategic benefit in doing so, and they will sleep well at night afterword's.

By taking the power away from sovereign nations, and controlling them from a centralized source, more people can be controlled by less people and their dreams can come true. Once enough power is in place, they can take off the kid gloves.

 

[lfd0311]

I wasn't the one whose complaining about immigrants.

You were calling other people out on it, talking about how Australians and Americans have no room to talk. Neither do you. Neither does anyone.

 

[SakuMemories]

right, so nations like Sweden should be dissolved because Hitler, or something like that. It's for the citizens safety, and the people in power are totally not doing it out of their own power seeking motivations

I didn't say because Hitler its more like when you find yourself parroting the exact same propaganda of tyrants, its time for a reality check. Know what I mean?

If Swedes don't want immigrants, they can vote far right parties. You are bitching about foul play. Like OMG look at what the democratically elected governments are doing! How dare they!

BTW not to say that public opinion is immutable. It will probably change soon. Even in Germany, if the 800K refugees arrive after all they will deal a harsh blow to Merkel's popularity.

A word to the wise.. The people in power are ruthless and power hungry despite their warm fuzzy messaging and facades. They are driven by the same forces as Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and any others. POWER. They will think nothing of killing millions if there is strategic benefit in doing so, and they will sleep well at night afterword's.

By taking the power away from sovereign nations, and controlling them from a centralized source, more people can be controlled by less people and their dreams can come true. Once enough power is in place, they can take off the kid gloves.

Its sovereign nations and their governments that have commited most of the horrors you mentioned. I think a loose EU federation, with a weaker federal government than the USA, would be good to keep every local thug in line.

But then again I come from a fantastically corrupt country so its infuriating to hear morons praise "national sovereignty". Yeah what a great fucking idea. Look were it got us.

 

[JDragon]

...to not having it any more...?

 

[IDL]

I didn't say because Hitler its more like when you find yourself parroting the exact same propaganda of tyrants, its time for a reality check. Know what I mean?

If Swedes don't want immigrants, they can vote far right parties. You are bitching about foul play. Like OMG look at what the democratically elected governments are doing! How dare they!

BTW not to say that public opinion is immutable. It will probably change soon. Even in Germany, if the 800K refugees arrive after all they will deal a harsh blow to Merkel's popularity.

I know what you mean, but I've done plenty of reality checks, and what I am saying passes them time and time again.

Swedes can go vote for who they like yes, but it's not quite so simple though because of the powers of mass persuasion (starting in the school system) I talked about before, and deception from their leaders. What we are seeing today has been worked on for a very long time (many decades). Not to mention 'democratically elected' leaders are controlled from above by more powerful internationalists.

But many people will embrace it, I have no doubt. Going with the flow is a lot easier than going against it, and the drawbacks are kept out of the discussion for a large part.

Yes I agree there will be inevitable shift to the right in Europe as people try to defend their position and try to survive as a people. The governments will likely do their best to nullify it, but we'll see if it can be contained. Since it is entirely predictable and natural, there will be a long term strategy in place for this.

Its sovereign nations and their governments that have commited most of the horrors you mentioned. I think a loose EU federation, with a weaker federal government than the USA, would be good to keep every local thug in line.

But then again I come from a fantastically corrupt country so its infuriating to hear morons praise "national sovereignty". Yeah what a great fucking idea. Look were it got us.

There are certainly examples of national governments becoming tyrannical. Can't argue with that. They are rarely, if ever, without external manipulations though. We are seeing it slowly happen again with the surveillance state and whatnot, just on a broader scale.

The positive thing is that in theory, once everyone is under the same rule, these struggles will have been won and we may not see any more. The downside is the most ruthless of all will have won the struggle, and will hold power over everyone. Not to mention the conflict in front of us that is required. So pros and cons..

I agree with the loose federation concept. I am not opposed to a limited supranational government.

 

[So Fresh]

You were calling other people out on it, talking about how Australians and Americans have no room to talk. Neither do you. Neither does anyone.

Again, I wasn't the one talking. Your logic makes no sense.

 

[James Keith]

lmao
you live in Australia, you're all immigrants except if you're aboriginial
do you think you fitted in when all the whites came?

All Americans and Australian people should just be very quiet when it comes to migration

Yeah cause its same exact thing as when the white man came to the new world seeking a better life via welfare benefits and jobs provided by the indigenous peoples.

 

[thx113x]

Hungary shut down their train station to the migrants and have built a fence in order to "control the flow" of migrants. Want them to provide documentation to prove they are refugees and not economic migrants. And want them to be fingerprinted as its the law they claim migrants should claim refugee status in the first EU country they enter. Migrants are attempting to avoid this so they can flee to Western Europe. Sounds like their plan is to deport those who cannot provide evidence.

 

[Ruprecht]

They rejected more than half the asylum applications last year. I doubt they're suddenly just going to start accepting them all.

 

[IDL]

Hungary shut down their train station to the migrants and have built a fence in order to "control the flow" of migrants. Want them to provide documentation to prove they are refugees and not economic migrants. And want them to be fingerprinted as its the law they claim migrants should claim refugee status in the first EU country they enter. Migrants are attempting to avoid this so they can flee to Western Europe. Sounds like their plan is to deport those who cannot provide evidence.

Apparently this is causing problems in Serbia since Hungary's wall leaves them there where there is already high unemployment and low wealth.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

They rejected more than half the asylum applications last year. I doubt they're suddenly just going to start accepting them all.

But apparently most syrian refugees are still in Turkey, and Lebanon. It does seem like the EU numbers pale in comparison to Turkey and Lebanon.

 

[Ruprecht]

But apparently most syrian refugees are still in Turkey, and Lebanon. It does seem like the EU numbers pale in comparison to Turkey and Lebanon.

Yeah, the majority of the Syrian refugee camps are in Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq.
The Eritrean refugee camps are mostly in Egypt and Sudan (although I'm not sure exactly how the numbers stack up with Libya, Algeria and Mauritania).
Afghan refugee camps are mostly in Iran and Pakistan.
That covers the three biggest groups at the moment I believe.

There's a mish mash of policies across the EU and I'm not sure how they compare to our processes here.
For instance, does being accepted as an asylum seeker automatically mean resettlement, a path to citizenship or just a temporary conditional visa?
Does rejection of asylum seeker status automatically mean deportation, and if so does it mean deportation to the country of which they are a citizen, or the country which was their point of arrival in the EU?
What are the usual restriction on immigration external to the EU? Do they have a family ties, language, education, wealth and/or employment/sponsorship setup?