The refugee discussion, V 1.0

[So Fresh]

That's not how reality works.

Reality is what you make of it.

 

[So Fresh]

Not necessarily. Most were simply searching for a better life.

Yeah, good reason isn't it

 

[So Fresh]

Australia started as a Prison Colony, so I don't think that really makes them immigrants.

Edit: Where are you from, anyway?

True. But people after that went anyway.

I'm from the Netherlands.

 

[lfd0311]

True. But people after that went anyway.

I'm from the Netherlands.

So your family would have immigrated at some point, too.

 

[So Fresh]

Yes, probably.

 

[lfd0311]

So you aren't really in a position to call anyone out on immigration at all. The truth is that there is no people on earth that are indigenous to the land their current country sits on. So that whole "Americans are just immigrants too" argument is really kind of silly.

 

[Bald1]

..... But you can't shoot them or let them starve, that's against fucking common human decency.

tl/dr; you don't understand what europe is, nor that its actually impossible to keep them out. There is no solution to this problem right now. It will suck for everyone involved.

And this it. There are no viable solutions as of now. Can't turn them back, and can't feed and house them indefinitely. It's also a fantasy believing most of these migrants have plans of assimilating and becoming part of western culture.

The only thing that would work in the long run is getting these people to stay put in their own countries. That's easier said than done. At one time or another every people have packed up and went seeking a better life.

On another note it's nice to see Hungary keeping it's traditional role as a buffer zone alive and well. That was only somewhat serious.

 

[JDragon]

Any statistics on these people, ie, how many adult males vs women and children?

Last year, two thirds of all asylum seekers in Germany were male.

28% of all applications were filed for children under 16 (sex ratio about even here).

Among the 16 to 34 year-olds, the share of males was 70 to 77 percent.

In terms of countries: Refugees from Syria, Afghanistan, Somalia and Eritrea were predominantly male (only 2 or 3 out of 10 were female). Refugees from the Balkans but also from Iraq (!) had even sex ratios. This latter point is an important fact.

In many cases, refugee families simply will not have enough money to finance the journey for more than one person. Men are usually physically stronger and, depending on where they come from, better educated. This is why their chances of surviving the dangerous journey and finding work at the destination are considered higher. Also, most of the times, women care for the kids and chances of getting abducted and raped - especially when they take the Sinai route - are high for women. Many men thus go to Europe hoping they will be able to get their families out later without risk or at least provide for them by sending money.

In addition, in war zones or states like Eritrea, conscription and the risk of getting killed is higher for men, which will serve as an additional motivator.

The usual process is that the entire family flees to a neighbouring country - say, Turkey - from where mostly the men travel on. If you see entire families in Europe, chances are that they are or were wealthy in their home states because it means they were able to pay traffickers.

One additional thing: recently, pressure seems to have intensified especially in Syria, considering reports say there is an increasing share of children that gets sent on their own.

 

[So Fresh]

So you aren't really in a position to call anyone out on immigration at all. The truth is that there is no people on earth that are indigenous to the land their current country sits on. So that whole "Americans are just immigrants too" argument is really kind of silly.

I wasn't the one whose complaining about immigrants.

 

[Hearse Lightning]

"You don't have to live like a refugee"
-Tom Petty

 

[IDL]

This is fulfilling the dream of the EU

A region consisting of rootless cosmopolitans. Deracinated, and lacking in cohesion. Perfect servants.

Really, once the native Europeans are out of the picture, or are fully neutralized / marginalized, then there will be no resistance.

I think those in powers are enjoying this very much, and will make sure it continues. The native Europeans are the problem, not the immigrants and refugees. They are the future and will make for ideal EU cosmopolitan citizens.

There is incentive to actually create more refugees by further destabilization their countries. Since the results are all rather predictable, this will have been factored in.

 

[JDragon]

Police in my city (Stuttgart) discovered 101 unregistered refugees on a single train from Munich today.

The blame game is in full swing. Austria blames Hungary, Germany blames both Austria and Hungary.

 

[Denter]

This is fulfilling the dream of the EU

A region consisting of rootless cosmopolitans. Deracinated, and lacking in cohesion. Perfect servants.

Really, once the native Europeans are out of the picture, or are fully neutralized / marginalized, then there will be no resistance.

I think those in powers are enjoying this very much, and will make sure it continues. The native Europeans are the problem, not the immigrants and refugees. They are the future.

Bold: IDL- those immigrants come from countries where no one pays taxes, no one obeys laws without someone looking over their shoulder, and have no problem resorting to "private justice" and other destabilizing behavior.

Europeans are much more docile than those people. The motivation for the immigration is much more banal than any conspiracy, I'm afraid.

And lol at the rootless cosmopolitan dig

 

[Winstone]

im not a migrant.

 

[IDL]

Bold: IDL- those immigrants come from countries where no one pays taxes, no one obeys laws without someone looking over their shoulder, and have no problem resorting to "private justice" and other destabilizing behavior.

Europeans are much more docile than those people. The motivation for the immigration is much more banal than any conspiracy, I'm afraid.

And lol at the rootless cosmopolitan dig

By resistance, I mean people with old European identities. People with land, culture, and history to defend. These people are at odds with the ultimate aims of EU project.

It stands to reason that breaking them down and dissolving them helps the EU project.

Of course there will be instability and a drop in efficiency over the short to mid term, but the EU project is a long term strategy. I mean, it started in the early 20th century and is still going.

Gotta break some eggs to create an Omelet, as they say.

And really, instability is beneficial to the EU in many ways as well. It provides pretext for expansion of the police state and power grabs. Watch what they do if/when conflict arises. We'll see government power expansion.

The motivations of the immigrants themselves are banal for the most part I'm sure, but the inevitable conflict is just nature.

So, for this reason I think we will continue to see top down pressure to keep this going.

 

[JDragon]

The magnitude of what is happening is crazy. This will fundamentally change Germany, no doubt.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

granted i'm white, but i was never asked for a passport even once the entire time i rode trains t/o europe, which was likely over 100 times in almost 4 years. From a convenience perspective, it was awesome, from a safety/regulatory view .....not so much

 

[SakuMemories]

This is fulfilling the dream of the EU

A region consisting of rootless cosmopolitans. Deracinated, and lacking in cohesion. Perfect servants.

Really, once the native Europeans are out of the picture, or are fully neutralized / marginalized, then there will be no resistance.

This is hilariously ironic if you consider that all fascists were against cosmopolitans.

If you want to see an age where every european was literally a perfect servant, look a century (or less) ago where everyone was obsessing with national identity and unity as you are. Perfect drones. Ready to suck the dick of every dictator, no matter how insane. Ready to commit murder on the command of their governments.

Fascists, tyrants and generally insane nationalists hate those who they deem "rootless cosmopolitans" because they can't control them. They need to be eradicated. People need to be subjects to the Nation and other Vague Abstract Grand Ideals.

 

[IDL]

This is hilariously ironic if you consider that all fascists were against cosmopolitans.

If you want to see an age where every european was literally a perfect servant, look a century (or less) ago where everyone was obsessing with national identity and unity as you are. Perfect drones. Ready to suck the dick of every dictator, no matter how insane.

Fascists, tyrants and generally insane nationalists hate those who they deem "rootless cosmopolitans" because they can't control them. They need to be eradicated. People need to be subjects to the Nation and other Vague Abstract Grand Ideals.

Nothing you said contradicts anything I said.

You can be against nationalism in the traditional sense all you want. That makes you a better EU citizen really.

Just think of the EU as a larger nation. And within that, the earth is the largest nation. The power center just gets farther away and the leaders have less and less interests in common with the people.

It's the same thing, just bigger. The biggest thing is that under such a large nation, universalism is required because people have very little in common. So historical identities, cultures, peoples, etc need to be dissolved or at least marginalized. Blending them together is an effective technique also.

It's a process of power consolidation.

 

[SakuMemories]

Nothing you said contradicts anything I said.

You can be against nationalism in the traditional sense all you want. That makes you a better EU citizen really.

Just think of the EU as a larger nation. And within that, the earth is the largest nation. The power center just gets farther away and the leaders have less and less in common interests with the people.

It's the same thing, just bigger. The biggest thing is that under such a large nation, universalism is required because people have very little in common. So historical identities, cultures, peoples, etc need to be dissolved or at least marginalized. Blending them together is an effective technique also.

I actually think that nations are, to an extent, natural expressions of humanity. They are not bad. I am against nationalist ideologues because they are one of the most virulent groups to ever plague mankind, as people and as a collection of ideas too.

I contradict what you said because your line of argument is 1:1 a fascist argument. They were against cosmopolitans with literally the exact same arguments, the same line of reasoning. Every tyrant needs people blindly dedicated to national unity. The EU, on the other hand, is a broader balancing mechanism that limits the crap each local politician can enforce on his population.

ON TOPIC, any solution on this immigration needs to be on a EU level. If we were a true federation, we might have a chance of tackling this problem. But every nation fending for itself is ultimately catastrophic: Refugees want to reach rich countries, rich countries want the poor countries to keep them, poor countries dump them illegaly on Germany (or Macedonia, in the case of Greece), everyone loses.

But what is preventing us from having a true federation is insane people like you, very common in the right wing. How else can the local corrupt politicians keep their power?