The refugee discussion, V 1.0

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by JDragon, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. JDragon

    JDragon DOX News Anchor Platinum Member

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    Considering many refugee threads have been popping up recently, I thought I'd open a definite one. Maybe we can try to contain the discussion here.

    So Hungary temporarily closed down its main station after refugees travelled uncontrolled onwards to Austria and Germany:

    https://translate.google.de/transla...esst-bahnhof-keleti-a-1050828.html&edit-text=

    On Monday evening alone, 3650 refuguees arrived in Vienna (!!).

    The response so far is twofold. One has been "be tough on refugees" and has been a complete and utter failure so far. The EU's outer land borders are not adequately secured, obviously, and it is not possible to prevent refugee ships from reaching Greece or Italy or Spain (without a massacre).

    Some facts. Where do these asylum seekers go?

    At least for 2014, we have figures:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/da...-eu-countries-receive-the-most-asylum-seekers

    The figures for the current year will be way higher - remember the thread about Germany preparing for 800k refugees this year alone, which would be 1% of the population - but I would assume that the relative percentages will remain around the same.

    Now it makes perfect sense, obviously, that Germany gets most refugees. We simply are the largest country by population. And obviously, given the current situation, it means something else for, say, Greece to give asylum to someone than for Germany.

    Still, given that many EU states happily put people on trains to Germany, I felt like doing the math in order to see how many refugees per inhabitant these states actually take up.

    So here goes: Inhabitants per refugee (all based on Eurostat data).

    Sweden 120
    Hungary 230
    Austria 306
    Malta 318
    Switzerland 347
    Denmark 385
    Norway 389
    Germany 400
    Cyprus 485
    Luxembourg 490
    Belgium 493
    Bulgaria 650
    Netherlands 689
    Italy 941
    France 1032
    Greece 1146
    Finland 1509
    Iceland 1936
    United Kingdom 2027
    Ireland 3190
    Poland 4736
    Latvia 5296
    Slovenia 5358
    Lithuania 6639
    Spain 8271
    Estonia 8473
    Czech Republic 9124
    Croatia 9390
    Romania 12855
    Slovakia 16428
    Portugal 23314

    So per inhabitant, Hungary took really, really many asylum seekers.

    The next question I had is: Okay, now it seems fair that within the European Union, states with higher GDP per capita would take more refugees than those who are less well off (considering for poorer states it would be lose / lose for both the state and the refugees). So I calculated the rank difference between GDP per capita and inhabitants per refugee.

    The way you read this is the following: those high up the list have shouldered a high burden because they have taken many refugees given their size and economic capacity; those with a high positive number have so far managed to evade the asylum issue.

    Hungary -24
    Bulgaria -19
    Malta -13
    Greece -9
    Cyprus -8
    Latvia -6
    Sweden -6
    Poland -5
    Austria -3
    Croatia -1
    Denmark -1
    Italy -1
    Romania -1
    Belgium 0
    France 1
    Germany 1
    Lithuania 1
    Estonia 2
    Switzerland 2
    Slovenia 3
    Finland 5
    Norway 5
    United Kingdom 6
    Czech Republic 8
    Iceland 8
    Netherlands 8
    Slovakia 8
    Luxembourg 9
    Spain 9
    Portugal 10
    Ireland 16

    It's not really surprising: those states at the Eastern and Southern periphery of the EU are poorer and have taken more refugees. Ireland, Spain, Netherlands, Iceland, but also Slovakia and the Czech Republic have so far evaded solidarity with the other EU states.

    This is going to become a real test for the European Union and a real test for Angela Merkel. There has been a resurgence of radical right-wing politics in most European states even before the onset of the current refugee crisis, so many of the geographically "well-situated" countries try not to be too helpful with the refugee issue. At the same time, it is only a matter of time, as we currently see in Greece, Hungary and states outside the EU like Macedonia, until these states collapse under the stream of refugees if there is no solidarity or help.
     
  2. squeezewax

    squeezewax Black Belt

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    The fact is nothing is known about these people entering various countries. The numbers are huge so there has to be 'undesirables' among them. Pedophile, rapists, thieves, murderers, and god know what else. Something even worse is are any carrying some type of illness that can be spread?

    In the end they are entering illegally, the borders mean little anymore, so there is not a lot of control. At some stage something will have to be done to stop this migration. People will just keep on coming, they're not going to just stop by themselves, and some of the countries can only take in so many.
    I'm glad I live all the way down here tbh. We will have a lot more control of who comes into the country. I would imagine Australia will have to take some in the end.

    Yes they've had a long and dangerous journey to Europe, but if i lived in one of the countries they're going in to, I wouldn't be all that happy. Just because they've turned up in Greece or wherever, shouldn't automatically mean they get permanent residency.
    If that is the case, then the word would be to the people left in the 'old' countries that all you have to do is survive the journey, and you can live in Europe forever. The reward.
    It's much like the people smugglers. I don't believe all of these folk would be genuine refugees. I mean the whole 800,000? Not all of them. Some are just economic refugees, according to the news reports.

    As you can see i'm not one of those people who automatically feels sorry for them. Maybe if they weren't mainly muslims i might think differently?

    I'm all for migrants coming into the country, the more the merrier, however they have to be able to fit in to the existing society.
    We've already seen in so many European countries that muslims, in general, don't fit in because they are just too different.

    Many of these migrants are from third world societies with very different beliefs and opinions about every day life.
    For instance, their views on females. They are completely at odds with the West on that one.
    That includes their belief that females aren't as valuable as males. That child brides are ok. That FGM is acceptable, and so on. All of this is very important.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2015
  3. thx113x

    thx113x Purple Belt

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    It's very sad to see what Europe is becoming.
     
  4. PorkPiePusher

    PorkPiePusher Loro Piana cashmere belt

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    The news don't tell nearly the whole story.

    A huge number of these (the majority, I remember reading) are young men in their prime who left their parents/wives/children behind - this is a red flag for illegal economic migration; they set anchor in Germany and send money back or send for the rest of their family once they get to stay. It saddens me that everyone gets tossed under the chapeau of "poor refugees", which actually are running from conflict areas and should be actually helped.

    Another point is that these people are "running for their lives", and in their flight they pass multiple European countries, yet 99% of them are waiting to file for asylum when they get to Central Europe.

    IMO, a liberalized Europe of today is incapable of a Nazi-sized right wing movement, so any diluted, "civil" right wing resurgence that might be going on might even be a positive thing if it means curbing the un-critical, liberal approach towards receiving refugees that I've seen so far.
     
  5. thx113x

    thx113x Purple Belt

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#Europe

    I was reading up on Wikipedia the connection between immigration and crime a few days ago. I think its worth sharing here. Across the board its very troubling:

    Denmark

    According to the figures from Danmarks Statistik, crime rate among refugees and their descendants is 73% higher than for the male population average, even when taking into account their socioeconomic background. A report from Teori- og Metodecentret from 2006 found that seven out of ten young people placed on the secured youth institutions in Denmark are immigrants (with 40 percent of them being refugees).[3]

    Somali immigrants in Denmark have especially higher crime rate than Danes and immigrants from other countries, as revealed by figures from the Ministry of Justice. For every 1000 Somali nationals charged last year, 114 were convicted for violations of the Penal Code. The same figures for Danish citizens is 13 (12.9% of 1000), while 54 out of 1000 citizens from other countries got a conviction.

    Finland

    According to official statistics, 21.0% of rapes have been committed by foreigners in Finland.[13] Foreigners comprise 2.2% of the population.[13]

    In contrast, the rape support helpline Tukinainen reports that 6% of all callers and 11% of 10
     
  6. thx113x

    thx113x Purple Belt

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    Spain

    The rates of crimes committed by immigrants are substantially higher than nationals.[28] The arrival of immigrants has resulted in a lack of progress in the reduction of offences against property and in a minor increase in the number of offences against Collective Security (i.e. drugs and trafficking). In the case of nationals, their contribution to the increase in the crime rate is primarily concentrated in offences against persons. Econometric results confirm the result even after controlling for all the observed socioeconomic and demographic factors. A report indicates that a higher proportions of American, non-UE European, and African immigrants tend to widen the crime differential, the effect being larger for the latter ones.[28]

    The same paper generally supports that labor market related conditions seem to supersede other potential explanations for the relationship between crime and immigration. However, given the limitations of the dataset and the available statistics of crime in Spain, the econometric analysis cannot exclude other alternative explanations such as ethnical related activities or misperceptions about the law. Cultural differences were statistically detected, endorsing the view that some communities of immigrants might not see Spanish criminal law as a body of rules that captures their own views of society.[28]

    Spanish National Statistics Institute (INE) published a study that analyzes records in the Register of Convicted in 2008. The data shows that immigrants are overrepresented in the crime statistics - 70% of all crimes were committed by Spaniards and 30% by foreigners.[29] Foreigners make up 15% of the population

    Switzerland

    In Switzerland, 69.7% of prison population had no Swiss citizenship, compared to 22.1% of total resident population (as of 2008). The figure of arrests by residence status is not usually made public. In 1997, when there were for the first time more foreigners than Swiss among the convicts under criminal law (out of a fraction of 20.6% of the total population at the time), a special report was compiled by the Federal Department of Justice and Police (published in 2001) which for the year 1998 found an arrest rate per 1000 adult population of 2.3 for Swiss citizens, 4.2 for legally resident aliens and 32 for asylum seekers. 21% of arrests made concerned individuals with no residence status, who were thus either sans papiers or "crime tourists" without any permanent residence in Switzerland.[30]

    The term Ausl
     
  7. So Fresh

    So Fresh Purple Belt

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    lmao
    you live in Australia, you're all immigrants except if you're aboriginial
    do you think you fitted in when all the whites came?

    All Americans and Australian people should just be very quiet when it comes to migration
     
  8. JDragon

    JDragon DOX News Anchor Platinum Member

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    That's just fearmongering and not very helpful. The same can be said for the hundreds of thousands that board airplanes everyday.

    In Germany, the discussion is quite easy: Syria = refugee, Balkans = economically motivated. Keep the former, deport the latter. I've read that the numbers currently are about 50/50.
     
  9. Ruprecht

    Ruprecht Hands Of The Judges Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    What is Germany doing with their Eritrean refugees at the moment?
     
  10. uppercutbus

    uppercutbus Silver Belt

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  11. JDragon

    JDragon DOX News Anchor Platinum Member

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    Interesting question. Far too little talk about Eritrea on here, too. Eritrea is called the "North Korea of Africa" often.

    Eritreans get accepted often (~50% of cases). The rest of them usually gets assigned to another EU state (because they came from there, e.g.) - this last year, only a fraction of asylum cases from Eritrea was formally turned down.
     
  12. SakuMemories

    SakuMemories Purple Belt

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    Its fascinating how people think "The West" or "Europe" is some kind of monolithic monoculture.

    Let me tell you, the indigenous fundamentalist right-wing is just as foreign to modern european ideals as the muslims are. Even if I am mistaken, the fundie right-wingers are diametrically opposed to the progressive left-wingers, so if we can coexist then the muslims can fit in too.

    That's the actual democratic ideal here: Different people coexisting.

    And this is coming from someone (me) who is way more militantly atheist than you are. If you dislike muslims 1 time, I dislike them 100. I guess I am racist that way, even though I try to better myself constantly. But you can't shoot them or let them starve, that's against fucking common human decency.

    tl/dr; you don't understand what europe is, nor that its actually impossible to keep them out. There is no solution to this problem right now. It will suck for everyone involved.
     
  13. OldGoat

    OldGoat Red Belt

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    That's not how reality works.
     
  14. Ruprecht

    Ruprecht Hands Of The Judges Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I don't consider myself an immigrant. I was born here after all.
    Although I suspect Squeezewax probably wasn't. He seems like a Brit.
     
  15. So Fresh

    So Fresh Purple Belt

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    But weren't your ancesters once immigrants? And didn't they leave because they didn't feel welcome or safe at their home?
     
  16. zulqarnayn

    zulqarnayn Green Belt

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    Not necessarily. Most were simply searching for a better life.
     
  17. zulqarnayn

    zulqarnayn Green Belt

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    A quick and simple solution to this refugee crisis is to force Muslim/Arab countries to take them. Specifically KSA and the Gulf Arabs.
     
  18. lfd0311

    lfd0311 Pink Belt

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    Australia started as a Prison Colony, so I don't think that really makes them immigrants.

    Edit: Where are you from, anyway?
     
  19. Toothless King

    Toothless King Brown Belt

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    meh, who gives a shit bros? it's their country/home so it's their right to let who can/cannot come in their country/home.
     
  20. Denter

    Denter Silver Belt

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    Any statistics on these people, ie, how many adult males vs women and children?
     

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