Law THE POLICE SHOOTING/USE OF FORCE MEGATHREAD: discussions to determine if justified or not

[nhbbear]

That's a completely indefensible position, and you are an idiot for saying it.



You missing 2 days of anger management doesn't give you permission to disregard policy Bird Brain.



I have reverance for all Human Life, including yours. I've lived on both sides of the proverbial Railroad Tracks. Sat on both sides of the Courtroom. My totality includes a sock footed, 6am been drinking all night, happy drunk shoplifter. A mean drunk would have been aggressive in every single frame of footage. I'd wager a non vegan meal his bac is .25 or higher.



Vargas is dead because the Shithead used excessive force Bird Brain. The threat to the 911 caller seems a bit overstated, but that's moot as far as the totality of circumstances at the time of the final confrontation. She was not in imminent danger at that time. 4 Cops and Vargas at that intersection.

You are talking stress and adrenaline like Vargas slinging lead like the LA Bank Shootout. It's a brick pussy. Me and 2 other seniors from the VFW would have put this dude on the ground with no weapons whatsoever. Just lol at being terrified of a guy with a brick. <Lmaoo>

2nd shot is low hanging fruit and I haven't addressed it much. It's clearly punitive rather than self protective. "I get excited" is an excuse I refuse to accept. You took an oath to remain calm in the face of danger. when you say "I do solemnly swear under oath or affirmation....." that's important, and people should be held accuntable to that oath.

These next three(and there were more) are all in reference to “it’s just a brick, oussy” lol. And is told poon a story about the closest I ever came to shooting someone was a guy threatening to smash an old man over the head with a bricks. Dude was high as fuck and running around naked in winter, hits the old man and knocks him down and is standing above him with the brick raised above his head saying he was going to bash his brains out. The suspects family was there shouting and I had him at gunpoint (oh no, I am sure you will chide me for that) and he started screaming again about bashing his brains out: I began to slowly pull the trigger and we had somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 lb triggers and I had probably about 8 applied when my dipshit partner stepped in front of me. I repositioned, keeping the cruiser as cover and as I was raising my gun again, he dropped the brick on the old man’s shoulder, breaking his collarbone. I then tackled his ass and took him into custody. My idiot partner walking into my line of fire (out of lack of situational and positional awareness likely saved that dude’s life but it could have cost the old man his. Now this was probably maybe 16 years ago, maybe 17. The suspects dad was a high ranking gang member and it would have been a very ugly scene. If that happened now a days, it would be all over cnn with ben crump mumbling his mouth full of marbles standing next to the family


So I have been in this situation or something similar

I have spoken at lengths about my dislike of their tactics. While I am probably not as brave as a paralegal like you, I have tackled a man swinging a machete in a hallway before and gone hands on with three men other subjects with knives-one trying to kill himself and I ended up getting cut and another I was arresting for domestic battery and as I approached him and told him, he yanks a knife out of his pocket and I am trying to pin his hand against his pocket and he’s yelling “shoot me/kill me” like he is about to have a xenomoroh burst out of his chest: I eventually get the knife knocked out of his hand and get him in custody-and this was about an hour and a half after we got into a foot pursuit with an armed bank robber but we lost him: then I go home and my wife tells me we’re pregnant, so that was a fun day: my point is that I probably would not have hesitated and would have hit him with the cruiser door or tackled him from behind when he was walking. But that’s me, and apparently you, you mean monster; you:

But everyone has different skill sets, preferred tactics; and confidence levels and strengths and weaknesses, maybe that officer wasn’t too keenly focused on going hands on with a guy armed with a deadly weapon, and that is absolutely fine. The oath I took and the one that cop took had absolutely nothing that requires the officer to have to tackle him or take stupid risks with his life because some dumbass with a brick is threatening people after he stole stuff because he’s a shitbag that feels entitled to do whatever the fuck he wants.

I have done stupid shit and taken stupid risks when I was younger that now I look back at and call myself a dumbass for taking unnecessary risks to my own safety to try and deal with some fucking idiot; but my point is that that oath does not require an officer to take that risk at his own personal safety if they don’t want to. A guy threatening people with a brick -a deadly weapon, is lethal force territory and what did he do? He tried to smash that cop’s head in by throwing the brick at him and he got shot for it: nit say it with me “he fucked around and found out:” fuck him.

It’s 0400 and I am going to bed: I will finish this later.



https://www.newsweek.com/man-dies-after-being-hit-brick-thrown-monkey-1641283


https://www.newsweek.com/man-dies-after-being-hit-brick-thrown-monkey-1641283


https://www.centralillinoisproud.co...dead-after-getting-struck-by-teen-with-brick/

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[nhbbear]

Man you got lot of things to say lol

Oh yes, I am one verbose motherfucker, but no one can ever say I phone these responses in, especially in a forum where most of these knuckleheads posts one or two sentence responses, usually snarky comments without any real substance and when they see one of my posts, it’s just simply tldr.

 

[Joshuaace]

I have tackled a man swinging a machete in a hallway before and gone hands on with three men other subjects with knives-one trying to kill himself and I ended up getting cut and another I was arresting for domestic battery and as I approached him and told him, he yanks a knife out of his pocket and I am trying to pin his hand against his pocket and he’s yelling “shoot me/kill me” like he is about to have a xenomoroh burst out of his chest: I eventually get the knife knocked out of his hand and get him in custody-and this was about an hour and a half after we got into a foot pursuit with an armed bank robber but we lost him: then I go home and my wife tells me we’re pregnant, so that was a fun day: my point is that I probably would not have hesitated and would have hit him with the cruiser door or tackled him from behind when he was walking

Fiction. Didn't happen. Not interested in entertaining your fantasy.

The oath I took and the one that cop took had absolutely nothing that requires the officer to have to tackle him or take stupid risks with his life because some dumbass with a brick is threatening people after he stole stuff because he’s a shitbag that feels entitled to do whatever the fuck he wants.

The oath that Officer took included upholding the US and California Constitutions. California is a de-escalation required State. Their threshold for deadly force is "when neccesary" as opposed to "when reasonable." Get back to me when you undestand the difference.

The oath you took came out of a Cracker Jacks Box.

https://www.newsweek.com/man-dies-after-being-hit-brick-thrown-monkey-1641283


https://www.newsweek.com/man-dies-after-being-hit-brick-thrown-monkey-1641283


https://www.centralillinoisproud.co...dead-after-getting-struck-by-teen-with-brick/

You went around the world, and back 5 years to find 3 brick fatalities. Stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[nhbbear]

i have no idea who skold is/was. i just don't like dirty cops and this clown is/was obviously among the dirtiest. over the years he has said countless times how much he hates the community he is supposed to serve, yet for some reason, people like you love to get on your knees for him.

I’ve said I hate the community I served? Yeah, ok. You’re so fucking full of shit. I hated the criminal element but I was a big believer in community policing and worked hard to make sure the decent people had that representation and protection and worked hard to dispel the “us vs them” bullshit perception that acab twats claim exists.

I taught women and children’s self defense for six years as a service for the community, I gave hardening the target talks at many groups, businesses, churches-anyone that requested-and I did this even before I was ever a sergeant or lieutenant and district commander. Did a whole lot of self defense and rape prevention at the battered women’s’ shelter. I gave talks at the crime meetings and ran three of them for my last few years and was a district commander of a densely populated section of the city with over 12,000 pop. I also did homeless outreach for two years.

Keep lying, fucko

 

[nhbbear]

@nhbbear @Poon Goon

This is what calm in the face of danger looks like. This is how you follow protocol to apprehend a potentially violent suspect with the least amount of injury or risk possible.

Do either of you see this guy as less of an immediate danger to the Officers or Civilians than Vargas was?

You hear the Officer? "We are not going to fight." Calm as could be. "Hey, what do you have under your shirt...DONT DO THAT" chase ensues. Scuffle ensues, "about to get tazed, about to get tazed, about to get tazed". Warning the guy what weapon was going to be deployed, 1 level of force above what was being used to resist.

These Officers right here would have taken Vargas in to custody without Firearms. Much respect for the 5 Star beat Cops in this video.

That is the standard and I have seen and done that many, many times. The videos or incidents in which the cops beat the brakes out of someone are the outliers.

I was always very chill and respectful and most times, I was able to talk down suspects that wanted to fight. Not always, but often enough that I was often requested at the scene when dealing with people known to fight or people I had fought before or arrested before because they knew I was fair and/or the ones that I fought knew how it was going to go. In my entire career, I injured only a handful of very violent suspects. One was the use of a taser from a guy that was breaking into houses and he was running and I tased him and he skipped off the pavement, one guy we had to fight in the back of a vehicle that was all fucked up on pcp and was an armed robbery suspect and I had to wail on his legs with a flashlight, another guy that had broken into a woman’s home and he tried to grab another officer’s gun-again, with the flashlight on the legs, and one was a woman that bit my partner hard on the arm and I did what was called a straight armbar takedown and unfortunately, we were in a gravel driveway and she had to get some stitches, but most of my fights ended quickly because of my bjj background and a shitload of rnc’s before they became too taboo, but they were still in our use of force continuum as on the border between intermediate force and deadly force-it just had to be justified. We had a head and arm choke called the “lateral vascular restraint” that was intermediate level of force on par with pepperspray, batons, and tasers. But around 2007 or so, we moved away from any kind of chokes and a lieutenant and I had a discussion where I tried to argue (as the defensive tactics instructor) that it should remain in the repertoire and he told me that I had gotten a rep for using them too much. He ensured me that all of my chokes were justified but I should lay off of them. My response was that during drop down drag out fights, the suspects always seemed to give me their backs and having been in bjj since 97, it was a hard habit to break. But I never seriously hurt anyone even though more than a few absolutely would have earned it. I threw one punch my entire career and that was to the ribs of a guy that just robbed a store and pepper sprayed the employees.

What’s funny about what you say here is that “the cops used one level of force above what the suspect used.” That is the “1+1 theory” and based upon that theory, Vargas had a brick which he used. As we have absolutely demonstrated, bricks are deadly force so the officers are justified in utilizing either deadly or lethal force, which is exactly what happened, so thanks for agreeing.

 

[Via Heeto]

I’ve said I hate the community I served? Yeah, ok. You’re so fucking full of shit. I hated the criminal element but I was a big believer in community policing and worked hard to make sure the decent people had that representation and protection and worked hard to dispel the “us vs them” bullshit perception that acab twats claim exists.

I taught women and children’s self defense for six years as a service for the community, I gave hardening the target talks at many groups, businesses, churches-anyone that requested-and I did this even before I was ever a sergeant or lieutenant and district commander. Did a whole lot of self defense and rape prevention at the battered women’s’ shelter. I gave talks at the crime meetings and ran three of them for my last few years and was a district commander of a densely populated section of the city with over 12,000 pop. I also did homeless outreach for two years.

Keep lying, fucko

wow. i bet you put yourself up for a lot of medals with that list!

there have been multiple examples of you hating on the general public but one stands out from a few years ago. i have no way to find it since i don't remember the thread or even topic. but you started shitting on the people of cleveland (not your community). not the criminals, just the city in general. even by your standards it was surprising. the people were all pieces of shit, which is funny coming from a cop

 

[nhbbear]

Fiction. Didn't happen. Not interested in entertaining your fantasy.



The oath that Officer took included upholding the US and California Constitutions. California is a de-escalation required State. Their threshold for deadly force is "when neccesary" as opposed to "when reasonable." Get back to me when you undestand the difference.

The oath you took came out of a Cracker Jacks Box.




You went around the world, and back 5 years to find 3 brick fatalities. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Yeah, ok. Fiction.

And this gem “Damn! You hit hard. I don't think ohe ever was a cop though. He has zero anger management skills. Hard to imagine him passing the psych eval.”

Yeah, I have the longest running grift/schtick in sherdog’s history.

Since the change of the layout, I am not sure how to upload photos from my phone since I suck at technology and I am not f’n with photobucket, but I was debating posting a pic of my wife putting my lieutenant bars on me at a ceremony, but last time I did that, a mod erased it because he said I was doxing myself, not sure how that’s different than the post your pic in mayberry which I have done quite a few times. I even just taught myself how to use the marker to cover up the department name and city flag, but honestly, I don’t give a shit what you believe:

Around the world and 3 brick fatalities? They took less than a minute to grab those three. Many pages back, I posted the video of a cop getting ktfo’d by a brick to the head in kenosha by some cowardly pussy and maybe I will check into it; but I thought there was a business owner that got hit with a brick by some total piece of shit and ended up in a coma and possibly dying-I can’t recall, other than it was an old man and after he was hit, some woman actually tried to stop them from looting and burning. Jesus, if you really want to die on that hill that bricks are not considered deadly weapons, you really are a retard.

 

[nhbbear]

wow. i bet you put yourself up for a lot of medals with that list!

there have been multiple examples of you hating on the general public but one stands out from a few years ago. i have no way to find it since i don't remember the thread or even topic. but you started shitting on the people of cleveland (not your community). not the criminals, just the city in general. even by your standards it was surprising. the people were all pieces of shit, which is funny coming from a cop

Oh, hell yes I shit all over cleveland. It is a shithole from whence many of our worst criminals come from. Somehow, in the 90s, thugs from Cleveland started moving into my city and the surrounding area and took over the drug trade and started numerous gang shootings and have been responsible for dozens of murders here. Cleveland is not my community and I readily and proudly admit that I hate all the fuckers from there that moved into a much smaller area to be big fish in a small pond because they couldn’t hack it there. These guys come here and they set up shop and bring in tons of drugs, guns, and violence. They crash at the pad of some other gang shithead from Cleveland until they meet some local hog and move in with her. These guys have the longest criminal records I have ever seen. We would arrest one and run a triple I (fbi criminal charges record for anytime they were arrested and fingerprinted and it also has the convictions and sentences/time served. I have seen guys with over 20 felony convictions and they always have malicious wounding convictions involving firearms, armed robberies, burglaries, and almost always the combo of felon in possession of a firearm and possession with intent to deliver, conspiracy, sexual assaults, tons of probation violations, etc and the sentences are an absolute joke. Six months here, 1 year there, an occasional 1-3 years for shooting someone and it will then say “served 14 months, probation period 3 years” then, you look at a dozen new arrests while they are on probation and it will say “30 days, suspended sentence, probation extended.” And these triple I’s are dozens of pages long. It is absolutely pathetic how little time they get sentenced to for very serious and violent crimes. I have come across tons of guys with manslaughter and murder charges, yet they still only serve a couple of years.

And it’s not just Cleveland. We have Chicago shitheads, nyc shitheads, a group of Detroit, some from Atlanta, but Cleveland guys are always the worst.

During my entire career, there is one guy that stands out. He was from there and the first night we dealt with him was after a vehicle pursuit, then a foot pursuit. When we caught him and his buddies, he was probably the biggest asshole I had ever met or dealt with. Huge record and very little time served. His dad was actually a cop in Cleveland and I ended up speaking to him on the phone because he thought his dad would try to get him out of the mess. His dad told me that his son was one of the worst thugs in his home city and that he was very dangerous and for me and my department to never turn our backs to him, that he almost always had a gun(he did that night it was found in one of the yards the next day (and it is a rule that you always retrace the route they took because they often toss shit as they run and then they suddenly stop running and give up thinking you won’t find whatever they tossed. But his dad apologized to us and said he was sorry that his shitbag son was now our problem. He also told us that his son had killed before but they couldn’t prove it and he had been tried but one witness magically got shot and the other one recanted her story. But we all hated this guy. He was basically a midget and ran his mouth more than anyone I had ever dealt with. Well, a few years before I retired, he ended up getting into a bar fight, and the camera inside the bar shows him and another guy fight and of course six other Cleveland steamers jump in and beat the guy to a pulp and he runs out of the bars shithead then retrieves a gun, he makes a big show of racking the slide and then exits the bar and shoots the guy and kills him. He was convicted and then a witness comes forward months later and says he saw another subject fire the fatal shot. He of course gets the best criminal defense lawyer in town who manages to get him another trial. He is again convicted of murder, only this time it is second degree instead of first even though his little act of getting the gun, racking the slide, then following the guy and shooting and killing him, the stupid ass jury got it wrong. But not that it matters. He ended up getting a 7 year sentence and he served 5 of it. Well, last year he shot someone else and was convicted of that as well as running a drug house across the street from an elementary school. I don’t know how much time he got this time. I am sure it’s not very long.

My point is that I wanted to protect the general public from shitheads and wanted to catch and punish them. That’s why I became a cop-that and I am an adrenaline junkie: the “us vs them” myth is bullshit. It’s more of a sheepdog protecting the sheep from the wolves. That is the basis for the thin blue line-cops are the thin blue line that protects the citizens from criminals or I’ve also heard it as cops are the thin blue line between order and chaos.

I find it highly amusing that you think it’s some “gotcha moment” that I say I hate criminals, especially the ones from another city that moved in and took over the drug trade, introduced their gangs to our area, are responsible for almost all of the bodies on the street, and they are-every single one of them, career criminals that never seem to do any real time-even for really violent felonies.

 

[nhbbear]

It seems like you believe that I am in here blindly defending the shooting and the tactics used. Again, I am the one that posted the shooting because I can see where it can be argued in both directions. I never said the cops in El Centro did an excellent job. As a matter of fact I said this a page or two back.



Also, lol at the drunk guy in your video ready to fight everyone, but then only lasting a few seconds. I caught that one earlier today. Big fan of the Police Activity channel, just the incidents with no bullshit commentary.

And he is still trying to argue that bricks aren’t dangerous. I did a very quick search and found a bunch of fatal brick encounters and I just picked 3 and he says “you went around the world and back five years and you only found three.” No, I found a bunch, I just posted three to prove that thrown bricks can easily kill. Hell, punches kill all the time, but it absolutely does not matter what he thinks because even if a brick was not fatal, it is deadly force, which is basically defined as any force that can cause serious or permanent injury or death. So even if those were the only cases I found, it still proves that a brick can indeed cause serious injury or death. He then admitted what I said pages ago that cops can use one level of force higher than the suspect. He has fists, you have tasers and batons: he has a knife, gun; or brick-cops use their guns, so it absolutely was proper for the officer that he calls shithead and excessive, to pull out his firearm on a guy that has threatened an innocent woman with a deadly weapon: he wants de-escalation: well, thr beginning of the video there is a cop trying to de-escalate by telling him to stop and “it’s only a beer, don’t make this worse.” That is de-escalation. It didn’t work. Neither did the first few levels of force in the use of force continuum/matrix which is officer in uniform with authority and verbal commands.

He also thinks the officer should have tackled him instead of pulling out a firearm. He claims that’s what he would have done. And it is an option and one I would have considered as well, but just because you may be able to tackle him without getting hit with the brick doesn’t mean that’s the option you have to use. Just because that’s what he thinks should have happened doesn’t make what those officers did incorrect.


I said it many times, I would have done things differently, but that doesn’t mean the options they used were wrong. There is never just one way or one correct answer when it comes to police work. Cops have many tools and almost every cop will do things differently than the next. I wouldn’t have gotten that close and would have used the car as cover and if available; used less lethal tools so long as I had an officer providing lethal cover in case it failed and the suspect comes at me:

He also keeps claiming they violated policy and that Cali is a must de-escalate state. I don’t care. Why? Because they did try to talk him down and it didn’t work. The cops don’t have to stay a certain distance away. Again, I wouldn’t get close and would have used the vehicles to box him in or even drive by and hit him with the door-there’s plenty of options available: he claims that the officer should have never gotten that close because it violates policy somehow, yet this douchebag claims tackling him is the only correct answer or the station is only a few miles away and he is certain those officers had other less lethal weapons that they were required to use. No, they are not required to try less lethal when facing a deadly weapon. Remember, he thought he had some trump card when he reiterated what I said earlier when he said that cops can only use one level of force above what the suspect has. Well, guess what dipshit, what’s one level of force above a brick(deadly force)? Lethal force.

And finally, it absolutely doesn’t matter that the cop chose to close the distance while giving him orders to drop the brick because that doesn’t give Vargas the right to throw the brick at an officer. He claims that Vargas threw the brick in reaction to an officer pointing a gun at him and he claims that Vargas must not have understood English and he didn’t know what the officers wanted him to do.

If I was somewhere and I didn’t speak the language and a cop points a gun at me, the last thing I am going to do is attack the officer: I was in Italy in 09 and I was walking through Rome. I don’t speak a lick of Italian. I was on one side of the street and I saw some carbinari (Italian state police or some equivalent) everyone else crossed the street and I didn’t think anything of it and kept walking. As I got within 20 feet of them, two of them pointed mp-5s at me. Not in a shooting stance, but turned towards me with their guns pointed at me from the hip. Again, I speak no Italian, yet somehow I was able to figure out that I should not attack them-I don’t know, maybe because I was a cop and that is how I was able to figure that out. Why they perceived me as a threat just walking on the same side of the street as them I will never know, and my thoughts were holy shit, these guys are fucking paranoid psychos, but I managed to not get shot:

Dude is a total tool bag

 

[Via Heeto]

Oh, hell yes I shit all over cleveland. It is a shithole from whence many of our worst criminals come from. Somehow, in the 90s, thugs from Cleveland started moving into my city and the surrounding area and took over the drug trade and started numerous gang shootings and have been responsible for dozens of murders here. Cleveland is not my community and I readily and proudly admit that I hate all the fuckers from there that moved into a much smaller area to be big fish in a small pond because they couldn’t hack it there. These guys come here and they set up shop and bring in tons of drugs, guns, and violence. They crash at the pad of some other gang shithead from Cleveland until they meet some local hog and move in with her. These guys have the longest criminal records I have ever seen. We would arrest one and run a triple I (fbi criminal charges record for anytime they were arrested and fingerprinted and it also has the convictions and sentences/time served. I have seen guys with over 20 felony convictions and they always have malicious wounding convictions involving firearms, armed robberies, burglaries, and almost always the combo of felon in possession of a firearm and possession with intent to deliver, conspiracy, sexual assaults, tons of probation violations, etc and the sentences are an absolute joke. Six months here, 1 year there, an occasional 1-3 years for shooting someone and it will then say “served 14 months, probation period 3 years” then, you look at a dozen new arrests while they are on probation and it will say “30 days, suspended sentence, probation extended.” And these triple I’s are dozens of pages long. It is absolutely pathetic how little time they get sentenced to for very serious and violent crimes. I have come across tons of guys with manslaughter and murder charges, yet they still only serve a couple of years.

And it’s not just Cleveland. We have Chicago shitheads, nyc shitheads, a group of Detroit, some from Atlanta, but Cleveland guys are always the worst.

During my entire career, there is one guy that stands out. He was from there and the first night we dealt with him was after a vehicle pursuit, then a foot pursuit. When we caught him and his buddies, he was probably the biggest asshole I had ever met or dealt with. Huge record and very little time served. His dad was actually a cop in Cleveland and I ended up speaking to him on the phone because he thought his dad would try to get him out of the mess. His dad told me that his son was one of the worst thugs in his home city and that he was very dangerous and for me and my department to never turn our backs to him, that he almost always had a gun(he did that night it was found in one of the yards the next day (and it is a rule that you always retrace the route they took because they often toss shit as they run and then they suddenly stop running and give up thinking you won’t find whatever they tossed. But his dad apologized to us and said he was sorry that his shitbag son was now our problem. He also told us that his son had killed before but they couldn’t prove it and he had been tried but one witness magically got shot and the other one recanted her story. But we all hated this guy. He was basically a midget and ran his mouth more than anyone I had ever dealt with. Well, a few years before I retired, he ended up getting into a bar fight, and the camera inside the bar shows him and another guy fight and of course six other Cleveland steamers jump in and beat the guy to a pulp and he runs out of the bars shithead then retrieves a gun, he makes a big show of racking the slide and then exits the bar and shoots the guy and kills him. He was convicted and then a witness comes forward months later and says he saw another subject fire the fatal shot. He of course gets the best criminal defense lawyer in town who manages to get him another trial. He is again convicted of murder, only this time it is second degree instead of first even though his little act of getting the gun, racking the slide, then following the guy and shooting and killing him, the stupid ass jury got it wrong. But not that it matters. He ended up getting a 7 year sentence and he served 5 of it. Well, last year he shot someone else and was convicted of that as well as running a drug house across the street from an elementary school. I don’t know how much time he got this time. I am sure it’s not very long.

My point is that I wanted to protect the general public from shitheads and wanted to catch and punish them. That’s why I became a cop-that and I am an adrenaline junkie: the “us vs them” myth is bullshit. It’s more of a sheepdog protecting the sheep from the wolves. That is the basis for the thin blue line-cops are the thin blue line that protects the citizens from criminals or I’ve also heard it as cops are the thin blue line between order and chaos.

I find it highly amusing that you think it’s some “gotcha moment” that I say I hate criminals, especially the ones from another city that moved in and took over the drug trade, introduced their gangs to our area, are responsible for almost all of the bodies on the street, and they are-every single one of them, career criminals that never seem to do any real time-even for really violent felonies.

even there you said you hate ALL of them. so not just the criminals, but law abiding citizens too. Knowing that, I can imagine how many people had their rights violated by you. Probably planted shit on them, etc. You shit all over these people and then say it is not "us vs. them." to you it obviously is. Whatever community you served is much better off now that you are no longer terrorizing the streets

 

[panem-et-circenses]

All this Cleveland hate. Anyone willing to go on record in order to defend Cleveland?

 

[nhbbear]

C'mon Bird Brain. What Jurisdiction doesn't investigate every single Officer Misconduct complaint?

Misconduct? Citizen complaints are not automatically misconduct. Some examples of complaints I had filed on me. The first one was after a flood. People called and said a homeless drunk was on their neighbors porch. We arrived and I walked up and told him to leave. He had an open container of alcohol so I took it and poured it out on the sidewalk. This really fat mutant comes off her porch and starts yelling at me saying “what if a kid comes by and gets into that alcohol?” Mind you, there was three inches of mud left behind by the flood and I said “ma’am, if someone were to lick up that alcohol off of that mud, the alcohol would be the least of their problems.” So she called the chief and filed a complaint that was tossed in the trash.

Another one involved a mother who’s daughter (racist and wearing a rebel flag shirt) spit on a black kid and called him the n word. This kid was 16 but very low functioning-probably that of an 8 year old. Well, he hits her in face. She demanded he be arrested, charged as an adult, and taken to jail or juvenile detention. I explained that in this state, you can’t arrest a juvenile for a misdemeanor unless it was domestic battery and they would absolutely not be placed in any kind of lock-up and the correct procedure which I was doing was to collect everyone’s information, document her injuries, get statements, and fill out a juvenile complaint to be sent to juvie court. The kid lived across the street. I interviewed him in the presence of his parents and even got a witness that said “she called him the n word and spit in his face and he hit her.” Well, I explained to the mother that her spitting on him was battery and was a crime. She then demanded we charge him with a hate crime because he was black and hit her and she was white and wearing a rebel flag shirt. I explained that a rebel flag was not one of the protected classes under the hate crime laws and then pointed out that the fact that her daughter called him a racist name and then committed battery was more fitting of a hate crime. She didn’t like that and filed complaints on me. All on body camera and nothing to be investigated for because I did my job and did it correctly. Then, in juvenile court, I testified to what I observed, what I was told by a witness, what both sides said, and I had discussed the fact that he was lowering functioning with both the prosecutor and his juvenile advocate, which was verified by his mother and based on the fact that he was 16 and in 8th grade. Well, again, mom filed a complaint on me because she claimed I took his side when I testified that both the boy and a witness stated that she called him a racist name and spit on him committing battery. She claimed I was biased and refused to do my job to make sure he was convicted. My opinion of them being complete trash was irrelevant and did not affect my testimony and I presented the facts that I gathered.

Those were the kinds of complaints I got. I can think of two more that were equal levels of bullshit, but this response is long enough. So, like I said, I was never investigated or sanctioned and I have never had a use of force complaint against me-now that would have been an investigation.

 

[nhbbear]

even there you said you hate ALL of them. so not just the criminals, but law abiding citizens too. Knowing that, I can imagine how many people had their rights violated by you. Probably planted shit on them, etc. You shit all over these people and then say it is not "us vs. them." to you it obviously is. Whatever community you served is much better off now that you are no longer terrorizing the streets

Jesus are you an idiot and making shit up. I didn’t say I hated everyone from Cleveland. I basically said “yes, I absolutely hate the shitbags from there they move here to bring crime, drugs, gangs, violence, and murder” and I said Cleveland is a shithole. I say the same about Chicago, Philly, Oakland, Portland, and several other places. That doesn’t mean I hate the good citizens there. It means I hate the city and I think it sucks. And I have a damn good reason to hate Cleveland considering how many times I have had to fight their thugs, been attacked by them, and investigate their murders.

And again, holy shit are you an absolute moron and making shit up. First, you claimed I have murdered people, then you claimed I said I hated the community I serve, then you just now claimed I have violated rights and planted shit, and terrorized my community. What a fucking retard

 

[Joshuaace]

Misconduct? So she called the chief and filed a complaint that was tossed in the trash.

What Department? What State? In my State a complaint against an Officer has to be notarized. So a phoned in complaint would be given a number, and assigned to an investigator. Your Chief throwing that complaint in the trash without pushing it through formal channels is a crime here. I'm guessing it is in your jurisdiction also. And stop with the fictional stories. I'm only concerned with non-fiction. Policy, statute, code, and Relevant Case Law.

You are stacking L's.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

Your Chief throwing that complaint in the trash without pushing it through formal channels is a crime here

You don’t know how sheriff J.W. Pepper operates. He is the law.

 

[Joshuaace]

I don’t think there’s anyone willing to undertake the amount of reading or research necessary

Regarding the El Centro Police Department fatal shooting of Elizandro Vargas, this is the required reading and research material.
This is the ECPD Policy Manual, California Penal Code, and California Government Code.

If you can't be bothered to read and comprehend this material, Then it is YOU that is unwilling to do the applicable research.

https://cityofelcentro.org/police/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2022/07/RELEASE_20220308_T173248_El_Centro_PD_Policy_Manual-1.pdf

California Codes: Codes Tree - Penal Code - PEN

California Codes: Codes Tree - Government Code - GOV

If you need page numbers, just ask.

 

[Poon Goon]

All this Cleveland hate. Anyone willing to go on record in order to defend Cleveland?

While there are many things to dislike about that city, it is still the hometown of Bone Thugs N Harmony. 1st of tha Month is a timeless classic.

 

[jamel]

Oh yes, I am one verbose motherfucker, but no one can ever say I phone these responses in, especially in a forum where most of these knuckleheads posts one or two sentence responses, usually snarky comments without any real substance and when they see one of my posts, it’s just simply tldr.

Hey now.
My one to two sentences get straight to the mother fucking point.

Other times they are to be laughed at and nothing more. context specific.

 

[Joshuaace]

I was always very chill and respectful and most times, I was able to talk down suspects that wanted to fight. Not always, but often enough that I was often requested at the scene when dealing with people known to fight or people I had fought before or arrested before because they knew I was fair and/or the ones that I fought knew how it was going to go. In my entire career, I injured only a handful of very violent suspects. One was the use of a taser from a guy that was breaking into houses and he was running and I tased him and he skipped off the pavement, one guy we had to fight in the back of a vehicle that was all fucked up on pcp and was an armed robbery suspect and I had to wail on his legs with a flashlight, another guy that had broken into a woman’s home and he tried to grab another officer’s gun-again, with the flashlight on the legs, and one was a woman that bit my partner hard on the arm and I did what was called a straight armbar takedown and unfortunately, we were in a gravel driveway and she had to get some stitches, but most of my fights ended quickly because of my bjj background and a shitload of rnc’s before they became too taboo, but they were still in our use of force continuum as on the border between intermediate force and deadly force-it just had to be justified. We had a head and arm choke called the “lateral vascular restraint” that was intermediate level of force on par with pepperspray, batons, and tasers. But around 2007 or so, we moved away from any kind of chokes and a lieutenant and I had a discussion where I tried to argue (as the defensive tactics instructor) that it should remain in the repertoire and he told me that I had gotten a rep for using them too much. He ensured me that all of my chokes were justified but I should lay off of them. My response was that during drop down drag out fights, the suspects always seemed to give me their backs and having been in bjj since 97, it was a hard habit to break. But I never seriously hurt anyone even though more than a few absolutely would have earned it. I threw one punch my entire career and that was to the ribs of a guy that just robbed a store and pepper sprayed the employees.

This has nothing to do with the case at hand. I'm in this thread to discuss whether a shooting was justifiable, not to entertain rambling fantasies of a fraud.

What’s funny about what you say here is that “the cops used one level of force above what the suspect used.” That is the “1+1 theory” and based upon that theory, Vargas had a brick which he used. As we have absolutely demonstrated, bricks are deadly force so the officers are justified in utilizing either deadly or lethal force, which is exactly what happened, so thanks for agreeing.

Vargas never made a threatening gesture with the brick until AFTER having a loaded firearm pointed at him from 20'. As a self proclaimed "expert" on the use of force, this should be clear to you.

I CHALLEGE YOU TO POST A CONTINUUM OF FORCE MODEL THAT SHOWS 'THREAT OF DEATH' AS AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE TO PASSIVE RESISTANCE.

 

[Joshuaace]

Neither did the first few levels of force in the use of force continuum/matrix which is officer in uniform with authority and verbal commands.

That's not a few levels. That's 1 level.

And per your words

Regardless of how the officers rolled up on him whether they tried to communicate in espanol or not doesn’t matter.

It's clear by their policy that it DOES matter.

The individual’s apparent ability to understand and comply with officer commands(Penal Code § 835a).


Take another L