Law THE POLICE SHOOTING/USE OF FORCE MEGATHREAD: discussions to determine if justified or not

[Joshuaace]

sorry. i wasn't clear in my post. i was meaning that I am shocked no cops ever took a complaint that another cop (meaning you) was dirty. They are usually so hopeful ith the general public.

On side note, you have hit just about every name in the book towards me. twat, bitch, cocksucker....... yet not once have i called you a murderer, which you most likely are

Damn! You hit hard. I don't think he ever was a cop though. He has zero anger management skills. Hard to imagine him passing the psych eval.

 

[Via Heeto]

Damn! You hit hard. I don't think he ever was a cop though. He has zero anger management skills. Hard to imagine him passing the psych eval.

actually zero anger management skills would make him an average cop

 

[Joshuaace]

to be fair, just giving a cop some attitude is reason enough to get shot and completely justifiable. am i right?

Sure, that has always been my position you twat

And there We have it.

He already threatened to smash the caller with the brick.

Was the caller in any imminent danger when the Police forced the final encounter? As a self proclaimed expert, you know this matters.

Oh, well, the cops should have just let him go then-nothing wrong with a thief who threatens people with a deadly weapon to worry about.

They had plenty of time to formulate a plan to disarm Vargas and take him into custody without endangering anyone. Per Departmental Policy AND California Penal Code, they were required to formulate that plan. As an expert, you know this

Because of his threats to use the brick and his refusal to drop it and eventually throw it at an officer, the threat of deadly force is authorized.

The alleged threat he made to the 911 caller is unsubstantiated, and no longer a factor since She isn't presently in danger. He never does anything in the video other than passivley resist, PRIOR to having his life threatened. As an expert, you know this

I stated I didnt love their tactics

And excused those SHITHEAD tactics by declaring this a "Clean shoot." Not very expert like.

but they chose to try and talk to him and order him to drop the brick and he chose to try and kill or seriously harm one of them.

They are required by California Code to de-escalate if feasible. The footage strongly suggests it was feasible here. It also shows where the escalation to violence originates, BLUE. As an expert, you know this.

And the police followed him and ordered him to drop the brick and you claim it must be a language barrier.

No, no, no, . You have serious comprehension issues. I said a potential language barrier must be considered in the totality of the circumstances equation. Serious question; Are you daft or dishonest Pinochio? Both?
From personal experience, the closer you are to Mexico, the more likely it is that you speak Spanish, especially if you appear Hispanic. Once I realize you are sock footed 6am weekday drinking alcoholic. I know damn well you are Mexican and just might not comprehend English.

Pointing a gun is a pretty universal language.

Yep, It's a death threat.

"Hurr Durr, I'm your use of force instructor, today we are going to discuss the effectiveness of death threats as a de-escalaltion tactic. I recommend it, Hurr Durr" "disregard continuum of force and combat passive resistance with death threats"

That's a dumbass position for an expert.

I don’t believe that there was an immediate need to take the suspect out as he was an immediate risk to the community like if he had a firearm,

Then you believe the Cops forced this deadly encounter in violation of Policy and Penal Code. Instead of taking that L, you will continue to wax retarded and continue stacking more L's.

but he was a risk to simply allow him to just wander off.

Which is not justification for the use of deadly force.....unless you are an angry expert Bird Brain . Follow protocol without your head up your ass expert.

This is a clean shoot.

Expert status revoked!
Clearly not a clean shoot. In your own words "I don’t believe that there was an immediate need to take the suspect out as he was an immediate risk to the community." That was required for this to be a clean shoot expert Bird Brain.

Take the suspect out? Do you mean apprehend the petty criminal? Or are you advertising your own blood lust? At worst his actions were misdemeanors up until the final encounter, which the shitheads forced without genuine de-escalation or non-lethal tactics being attempted on the guy who was at most passively resistant until that point.

you actually tried to argue that he was the justified one because they were pointing guns at him.

No, no, Pinochio. I pointed out that the continuum of force went as follows.

Walking away with brick = passive resistance(2)
Facing Officer with brick held at waist = passive resistance(2)
Pointing firearm at suspect = Death threat(4)

Do you want to take an L on the continuum of force as well?

Josh would have given him a ride and a handjob.

If I took a Sworn Oath, I would uphold that Oath to the very best of my abilities. Including understanding and following Dept Policy on de-escalation, and use of force policy; both Lethal, and non-lethal. I would implement my training and employ genuine de-escalation tactics, while formulating a non-lethal plan should those attempts at a peaceful resolution fail. I would do so with the Departments guiding principle of reverance for Human life.

You would be a pussy shithead looking to escalate the situation, but only since you had superior manpower, and far superior weaponry.

He knows nothing of use of force and when to apply it.

El Centro's use of force policy is public info. So is California Penal Code, as well as the California Government Code. As well as the U.S. DOJ Statutes. But just because it is public information doesn't mean just anyone has the ability to comprehend it. You don't, and that's what makes you dangerous as an expert Bird brained Shithead wannabe, as I've previously noted.

@Poon Goon
What carries more weight on "Police use of force" in El Cetro California? ECPD Policy, California Government Code, California Penal Code, AND US DOJ Statute
or;
nhbbear said so?
Dammit, I want an answer lol.

He is rattling off policy like that is what decides criminal charges.

I posted their policy and California Code as source. You posted 'I said so' as a rebuttal.

Violating policy is internal discipline.

With the potential for criminal prosecution as well. Some of those policies are rooted in penal code Bird Brain. You new at this? You are doing a lot of minimizing the importance of Dept Policy. That's how you advance through the rank of command, probably. Bird Brain, This is level 1 Duck Hunt. Practically everything you type is easily dispatched....... fraud.

it is absolutely appropriate to have that man covered with a firearm for lethal cover.

Lethal Cover? That requires a person or persons be designated as lethal cover. That means a plan was in place. Are you suggesting that the plan was to designate lethal cover responsibilities to the shithead closest to the suspect? That's a plan that may cost 8 figures in Civil Court.

But since you opened the "Lethal Cover" door, let's have a look at El Centro PD "lethal cover" policy. Oh, They don't have one. You must have just been assuming they did. But even if they did, the ones I've read include language similar to LAPD.

The Designated Cover Officer gives other officers the ability to perform other roles,functions, and tasks with the benefit of protection against a potential deadly threat.
These include: searching areas/locations, maintaining lines of communication with thesuspect/subject, providing less-lethal force protection, controlling vehicle/pedestriantraffic, maintaining a perimeter and completing evacuations.

The Designated Cover Officer should seek to limit distractions and focus on providingforce protection while also ensuring the safe handling of their firearm. The DesignatedCover Officer should avoid engaging in lengthy communication with other officers,striving to limit their verbalization to short, tactically significant messages. The Designated Cover Officer should generally not be the person communicating with a suspect or subject.

and this one from Cambridge , Mass. Which is literally contained within their non-lethal policy manual:

Lethal Cover Officer: A designated officer who is engaged in a lethal threat encounterand ready to deploy a force option that is designed to cause serious bodily harm or death should a less lethal option be ineffective.

So in this instance, lethal cover would be an apropriate plan IN CASE less lethal failed when employed. No non-lethal plan was employed.


Shit has gone on far too long. Put this expert Bird Brain fantasy away for your own good.

 

[nhbbear]

sorry. i wasn't clear in my post. i was meaning that I am shocked no cops ever took a complaint that another cop (meaning you) was dirty. They are usually so hopeful with the general public.

On side note, you have hit just about every name in the book towards me. twat, bitch, cocksucker....... yet not once have i called you a murderer, which you most likely are

Murderer? I have been called many stupid things in my days, but you are actually insinuating that I have killed a person? Wow, at least my insults have some basis in reality. If you’d had any credibility, it would be profusely leaking like the your asshole after your third trip in the glory hole.

 

[deadshot138]

No, this isn’t about other cops. You tried to say that I would have been on video violating rights trying to imply I was a dirty cop. Bitch, I have reported dirty cops myself.

Don't let this idiot troll you into cards or a ban, brother. They want revenge for @skold.

 

[nhbbear]

And there We have it.




Was the caller in any imminent danger when the Police forced the final encounter? As a self proclaimed expert, you know this matters.



They had plenty of time to formulate a plan to disarm Vargas and take him into custody without endangering anyone. Per Departmental Policy AND California Penal Code, they were required to formulate that plan. As an expert, you know this




The alleged threat he made to the 911 caller is unsubstantiated, and no longer a factor since She isn't presently in danger. He never does anything in the video other than passivley resist, PRIOR to having his life threatened. As an expert, you know this



And excused those SHITHEAD tactics by declaring this a "Clean shoot." Not very expert like.


They are required by California Code to de-escalate if feasible. The footage strongly suggests it was feasible here. It also shows where the escalation to violence originates, BLUE. As an expert, you know this.



No, no, no, . You have serious comprehension issues. I said a potential language barrier must be considered in the totality of the circumstances equation. Serious question; Are you daft or dishonest Pinochio? Both?
From personal experience, the closer you are to Mexico, the more likely it is that you speak Spanish, especially if you appear Hispanic. Once I realize you are sock footed 6am weekday drinking alcoholic. I know damn well you are Mexican and just might not comprehend English.


Yep, It's a death threat.

"Hurr Durr, I'm your use of force instructor, today we are going to discuss the effectiveness of death threats as a de-escalaltion tactic. I recommend it, Hurr Durr" "disregard continuum of force and combat passive resistance with death threats"

That's a dumbass position for an expert.



Then you believe the Cops forced this deadly encounter in violation of Policy and Penal Code. Instead of taking that L, you will continue to wax retarded and continue stacking more L's.


Which is not justification for the use of deadly force.....unless you are an angry expert Bird Brain . Follow protocol without your head up your ass expert.


Expert status revoked!
Clearly not a clean shoot. In your own words "I don’t believe that there was an immediate need to take the suspect out as he was an immediate risk to the community." That was required for this to be a clean shoot expert Bird Brain.

Take the suspect out? Do you mean apprehend the petty criminal? Or are you advertising your own blood lust? At worst his actions were misdemeanors up until the final encounter, which the shitheads forced without genuine de-escalation or non-lethal tactics being attempted on the guy who was at most passively resistant until that point.



No, no, Pinochio. I pointed out that the continuum of force went as follows.

Walking away with brick = passive resistance(2)
Facing Officer with brick held at waist = passive resistance(2)
Pointing firearm at suspect = Death threat(4)

Do you want to take an L on the continuum of force as well?



If I took a Sworn Oath, I would uphold that Oath to the very best of my abilities. Including understanding and following Dept Policy on de-escalation, and use of force policy; both Lethal, and non-lethal. I would implement my training and employ genuine de-escalation tactics, while formulating a non-lethal plan should those attempts at a peaceful resolution fail. I would do so with the Departments guiding principle of reverance for Human life.

You would be a pussy shithead looking to escalate the situation, but only since you had superior manpower, and far superior weaponry.




El Centro's use of force policy is public info. So is California Penal Code, as well as the California Government Code. As well as the U.S. DOJ Statutes. But just because it is public information doesn't mean just anyone has the ability to comprehend it. You don't, and that's what makes you dangerous as an expert Bird brained Shithead wannabe, as I've previously noted.

@Poon Goon
What carries more weight on "Police use of force" in El Cetro California? ECPD Policy, California Government Code, California Penal Code, AND US DOJ Statute
or;
nhbbear said so?
Dammit, I want an answer lol.


I posted their policy and California Code as source. You posted 'I said so' as a rebuttal.


With the potential for criminal prosecution as well. Some of those policies are rooted in penal code Bird Brain. You new at this? You are doing a lot of minimizing the importance of Dept Policy. That's how you advance through the rank of command, probably. Bird Brain, This is level 1 Duck Hunt. Practically everything you type is easily dispatched....... fraud.




Lethal Cover? That requires a person or persons be designated as lethal cover. That means a plan was in place. Are you suggesting that the plan was to designate lethal cover responsibilities to the shithead closest to the suspect? That's a plan that may cost 8 figures in Civil Court.

But since you opened the "Lethal Cover" door, let's have a look at El Centro PD "lethal cover" policy. Oh, They don't have one. You must have just been assuming they did. But even if they did, the ones I've read include language similar to LAPD.

The Designated Cover Officer gives other officers the ability to perform other roles,functions, and tasks with the benefit of protection against a potential deadly threat.
These include: searching areas/locations, maintaining lines of communication with thesuspect/subject, providing less-lethal force protection, controlling vehicle/pedestriantraffic, maintaining a perimeter and completing evacuations.

The Designated Cover Officer should seek to limit distractions and focus on providingforce protection while also ensuring the safe handling of their firearm. The DesignatedCover Officer should avoid engaging in lengthy communication with other officers,striving to limit their verbalization to short, tactically significant messages. The Designated Cover Officer should generally not be the person communicating with a suspect or subject.

and this one from Cambridge , Mass. Which is literally contained within their non-lethal policy manual:

Lethal Cover Officer: A designated officer who is engaged in a lethal threat encounterand ready to deploy a force option that is designed to cause serious bodily harm or death should a less lethal option be ineffective.

So in this instance, lethal cover would be an apropriate plan IN CASE less lethal failed when employed. No non-lethal plan was employed.


Shit has gone on far too long. Put this expert Bird Brain fantasy away for your own good.

You keep harping on this “they have to formulate a plan” aspect is flawed in several areas. First, this is an active situation that does not afford the officers to just sit back and discuss this over coffee and doughnuts. Cops don’t always have the time to plan encounters. With that said, neither you nor I, have any information on whether they had radio communications, hand signals(which we used all the time to communicate and indicate movements, arrest suspect, cover that suspect/area, etc), verbal communication, or fell back on their training or previous experiences, etc. But for someone who has never had to be in these situations, formulate plans on the go and during such situations, you sure have all the answers from your armchair quarterback position. Lol

As for the de-escalation, upon first contact, the one officer, I believe you called him officer shithead, pleads with him to stop and drop the brick and even says “it’s just a beer don’t make this worse.” Again, this is after the 911 caller and original victim tells dispatch that he had threatened to attack her with the brick. So, he went from shoplifting to malicious assault (a felony in which he made threats of serious bodily harm or death with a deadly weapon.) to clarify for those unaware, people often misuse assault/battery.

Assault is threats or actions that place a reasonable person in fear of receiving bodily harm. Battery is actually making contact of an injurious nature that causes bodily harm. Simple assault “I am going to fuck you up” while in a fighting stance with fist cocked back. Battery would be throwing that punch and connecting. When discussing the felony level (malicious assault/wounding-states often have variations on what exactly they label it as, but the laws are pretty much similar but the penalties vary- misdemeanors are up to a year in a county jail while felonies are over a year in a state or fed penitentiary.

So, we have an officer giving verbal commands in uniform in a marked police cruiser as well as several other marked cruisers/uniformed police officers and no amount of whining from you is going to convince me, or anyone else that a language barrier is why he didn’t stop, drop the weapon, or gave vargas any indication that it was ok to try and kill a cop. So while the crime started out as stealing a couple of beers, then, he “borrowed” someone’s brick before threatening to use it on the woman who had the damn audacity to object to this shitbag’s crimes.

Again, vargas committed extremely low level misdemeanors until he borrowed the brick(gotta wonder if those people will ever get that brick back once the case is closed and no charges are filed) and committed a felony by threatening her with a deadly weapon. So, after the presence of uniformed police officers giving commands to stop and drop the brick that he had already threatened one person with, you laughably condemn the officers for deciding to meet his deadly force with deadly force of their own. This man had committed felonious assault against a woman and refused any and all attempts to get him to stop and drop the brick, so when officers finally try to corral him, yes, of course a man threatening people with a brick is going to see the business end of a duty weapon.

I didn’t see anyone else in the area, but that doesn’t mean that homeboy can’t decide to just start running and have the chance to encounter some other innocent person in the street, in a house he could run into, or some other possibility of putting others at risk.

When I mentioned TN v Garner, which typically deals with the “fleeing felon” type of situations, it also covers aspects of shootings that graham doesn’t when discussing the need to take a suspect out using lethal force, it discusses the importance of taking a suspect into custody or using force at that time is more important than that suspect’s 4th amendment rights. I don’t normally like to play the what if game “like what if he ran into a house and used that brick on a child” or when police are wrongly trying to justify a bullshit pursuit by saying “what if he had a body in the trunk or was on his way to kill his wife” but in a neighborhood where there are many other potential victims of our harmless beer thief, while the threat is not immediate, one exists that compels the officers to try and contain the suspect before he does have that opportunity.

Once again, I think there are plenty of other options those officers could have done. Like you, this armchair is comfortable, but when you’re in one of these situations, you can become hyper focused on the threat and other ideas aren’t readily accessible due to stress and adrenaline. I think they could have used those vehicles better, utilized space/cover, try and stall him if possible until you get other use of force options on scene-hell, I can even envision using a vehicle to knock him on his ass before other officers pounced on him-it would have been a much more interesting video for sure, but I am sure you would probably whine and cry about using a vehicle to love tap him into someone’s front yard. If he started runnnjng or just kept walking, “door” his ass. Always wanted to do that but the closest I ever got was after a guy broke into a news studio and ran into the recording studio armed with a knife demanding they film him warning the world about an alien invasion before fleeing out the door and then running down the street. I was about ten feet away ready to door him when another cruiser pulled in front of him and I had to stop so I didn’t but those dumbasses. But I wouldn’t expect a paralegal to know how many options are running through your mind in the middle of one of these clusterfucks and how after it is all over, you think of how you could have done it differently and it pisses you off and eats at you.

And now to the actual shooting. Every person has different reaction times. These vary even in the same individual at different times-that’s why sometimes when something falls, your damn hand shoots it like a pit viper and catches it before it hits the ground while the next day, you just stand there stupidly and watch a jar of olives smash on the floor of the kitchen. Use of force studies discuss how sometimes, an officer perceives a threat and fires before he realizes it was only a phone and not a gun. Other times, by the time the officer perceives the threat and his brain tells him/her to fire, it takes around half a second or so before the trigger is actually pulled. In this instance, the brick is already going to miss the officer by the time he has perceived the threat (vargas easing his arm in a throwing motion), realizes that he is about to be hit with a deadly weapon that can cause serious injury or death, makes the decision to fire, and then finally, fires two shots. Like I said, if he kept firing, it would be much more of an issue, but he only fired two shots, which was apparently enough, but the delay doesn’t concern me because of what these reaction time and use of force studies tells us. There’s tons of them out there and I have read more than quite a few over the years. You have basically three parts-the perception of danger, the decision to react, and the actual reaction. And that last part-the reaction is what I am going to focus on.

 

[nhbbear]

And there We have it.




Was the caller in any imminent danger when the Police forced the final encounter? As a self proclaimed expert, you know this matters.



They had plenty of time to formulate a plan to disarm Vargas and take him into custody without endangering anyone. Per Departmental Policy AND California Penal Code, they were required to formulate that plan. As an expert, you know this




The alleged threat he made to the 911 caller is unsubstantiated, and no longer a factor since She isn't presently in danger. He never does anything in the video other than passivley resist, PRIOR to having his life threatened. As an expert, you know this



And excused those SHITHEAD tactics by declaring this a "Clean shoot." Not very expert like.


They are required by California Code to de-escalate if feasible. The footage strongly suggests it was feasible here. It also shows where the escalation to violence originates, BLUE. As an expert, you know this.



No, no, no, . You have serious comprehension issues. I said a potential language barrier must be considered in the totality of the circumstances equation. Serious question; Are you daft or dishonest Pinochio? Both?
From personal experience, the closer you are to Mexico, the more likely it is that you speak Spanish, especially if you appear Hispanic. Once I realize you are sock footed 6am weekday drinking alcoholic. I know damn well you are Mexican and just might not comprehend English.


Yep, It's a death threat.

"Hurr Durr, I'm your use of force instructor, today we are going to discuss the effectiveness of death threats as a de-escalaltion tactic. I recommend it, Hurr Durr" "disregard continuum of force and combat passive resistance with death threats"

That's a dumbass position for an expert.



Then you believe the Cops forced this deadly encounter in violation of Policy and Penal Code. Instead of taking that L, you will continue to wax retarded and continue stacking more L's.


Which is not justification for the use of deadly force.....unless you are an angry expert Bird Brain . Follow protocol without your head up your ass expert.


Expert status revoked!
Clearly not a clean shoot. In your own words "I don’t believe that there was an immediate need to take the suspect out as he was an immediate risk to the community." That was required for this to be a clean shoot expert Bird Brain.

Take the suspect out? Do you mean apprehend the petty criminal? Or are you advertising your own blood lust? At worst his actions were misdemeanors up until the final encounter, which the shitheads forced without genuine de-escalation or non-lethal tactics being attempted on the guy who was at most passively resistant until that point.



No, no, Pinochio. I pointed out that the continuum of force went as follows.

Walking away with brick = passive resistance(2)
Facing Officer with brick held at waist = passive resistance(2)
Pointing firearm at suspect = Death threat(4)

Do you want to take an L on the continuum of force as well?



If I took a Sworn Oath, I would uphold that Oath to the very best of my abilities. Including understanding and following Dept Policy on de-escalation, and use of force policy; both Lethal, and non-lethal. I would implement my training and employ genuine de-escalation tactics, while formulating a non-lethal plan should those attempts at a peaceful resolution fail. I would do so with the Departments guiding principle of reverance for Human life.

You would be a pussy shithead looking to escalate the situation, but only since you had superior manpower, and far superior weaponry.




El Centro's use of force policy is public info. So is California Penal Code, as well as the California Government Code. As well as the U.S. DOJ Statutes. But just because it is public information doesn't mean just anyone has the ability to comprehend it. You don't, and that's what makes you dangerous as an expert Bird brained Shithead wannabe, as I've previously noted.

@Poon Goon
What carries more weight on "Police use of force" in El Cetro California? ECPD Policy, California Government Code, California Penal Code, AND US DOJ Statute
or;
nhbbear said so?
Dammit, I want an answer lol.


I posted their policy and California Code as source. You posted 'I said so' as a rebuttal.


With the potential for criminal prosecution as well. Some of those policies are rooted in penal code Bird Brain. You new at this? You are doing a lot of minimizing the importance of Dept Policy. That's how you advance through the rank of command, probably. Bird Brain, This is level 1 Duck Hunt. Practically everything you type is easily dispatched....... fraud.




Lethal Cover? That requires a person or persons be designated as lethal cover. That means a plan was in place. Are you suggesting that the plan was to designate lethal cover responsibilities to the shithead closest to the suspect? That's a plan that may cost 8 figures in Civil Court.

But since you opened the "Lethal Cover" door, let's have a look at El Centro PD "lethal cover" policy. Oh, They don't have one. You must have just been assuming they did. But even if they did, the ones I've read include language similar to LAPD.

The Designated Cover Officer gives other officers the ability to perform other roles,functions, and tasks with the benefit of protection against a potential deadly threat.
These include: searching areas/locations, maintaining lines of communication with thesuspect/subject, providing less-lethal force protection, controlling vehicle/pedestriantraffic, maintaining a perimeter and completing evacuations.

The Designated Cover Officer should seek to limit distractions and focus on providingforce protection while also ensuring the safe handling of their firearm. The DesignatedCover Officer should avoid engaging in lengthy communication with other officers,striving to limit their verbalization to short, tactically significant messages. The Designated Cover Officer should generally not be the person communicating with a suspect or subject.

and this one from Cambridge , Mass. Which is literally contained within their non-lethal policy manual:

Lethal Cover Officer: A designated officer who is engaged in a lethal threat encounterand ready to deploy a force option that is designed to cause serious bodily harm or death should a less lethal option be ineffective.

So in this instance, lethal cover would be an apropriate plan IN CASE less lethal failed when employed. No non-lethal plan was employed.


Shit has gone on far too long. Put this expert Bird Brain fantasy away for your own good.

Part two of three since sherdog adopted twitter style restrictions on length of responses.

Why reaction? Because it IS a reaction to Vargas’ actions: he chose to use a deadly weapon against a cop after he had already threatened an innocent woman. Regardless of how the officers rolled up on him-whether they tried to communicate in espanol or not doesn’t matter. Their intentions and commands were Crystal clear-stop and drop the brick and the officer’s gun was the exclamation point. I don’t care how close to Mexico this was, how Hispanic his name was, what languages he understood-it’s pretty universal that when you break the law and you have several uniformed cops surrounding you-you fucking stop doing what you’re doing. It’s not a fourth amendment issue like you might have been trying to insinuate earlier where he was walking away and didn’t have to stop and have a consensual encounter with the cops. Letting him walk away wasn’t an option, but stopping and NOT TRYING TO KILL OR SERIOUSLY INJURE AN OFFICER was an option they gave vargas, but he once again chose violence and he brought a brick to a gun fight and he lost.

Again, it doesn’t matter if the officer was too close or didn’t use his vehicle for cover-legally/criminally speaking. I already stated my thoughts on “what they could/should/shouldn’t” have done tactically. You’re trying to stupidly argue that the officer is to blame because some violent dirtbag decided that he wanted his seat at Darwin’s table because he had heard that Galapogos tortoise soup was on the menu.

 

[nhbbear]

And there We have it.




Was the caller in any imminent danger when the Police forced the final encounter? As a self proclaimed expert, you know this matters.



They had plenty of time to formulate a plan to disarm Vargas and take him into custody without endangering anyone. Per Departmental Policy AND California Penal Code, they were required to formulate that plan. As an expert, you know this




The alleged threat he made to the 911 caller is unsubstantiated, and no longer a factor since She isn't presently in danger. He never does anything in the video other than passivley resist, PRIOR to having his life threatened. As an expert, you know this



And excused those SHITHEAD tactics by declaring this a "Clean shoot." Not very expert like.


They are required by California Code to de-escalate if feasible. The footage strongly suggests it was feasible here. It also shows where the escalation to violence originates, BLUE. As an expert, you know this.



No, no, no, . You have serious comprehension issues. I said a potential language barrier must be considered in the totality of the circumstances equation. Serious question; Are you daft or dishonest Pinochio? Both?
From personal experience, the closer you are to Mexico, the more likely it is that you speak Spanish, especially if you appear Hispanic. Once I realize you are sock footed 6am weekday drinking alcoholic. I know damn well you are Mexican and just might not comprehend English.


Yep, It's a death threat.

"Hurr Durr, I'm your use of force instructor, today we are going to discuss the effectiveness of death threats as a de-escalaltion tactic. I recommend it, Hurr Durr" "disregard continuum of force and combat passive resistance with death threats"

That's a dumbass position for an expert.



Then you believe the Cops forced this deadly encounter in violation of Policy and Penal Code. Instead of taking that L, you will continue to wax retarded and continue stacking more L's.


Which is not justification for the use of deadly force.....unless you are an angry expert Bird Brain . Follow protocol without your head up your ass expert.


Expert status revoked!
Clearly not a clean shoot. In your own words "I don’t believe that there was an immediate need to take the suspect out as he was an immediate risk to the community." That was required for this to be a clean shoot expert Bird Brain.

Take the suspect out? Do you mean apprehend the petty criminal? Or are you advertising your own blood lust? At worst his actions were misdemeanors up until the final encounter, which the shitheads forced without genuine de-escalation or non-lethal tactics being attempted on the guy who was at most passively resistant until that point.



No, no, Pinochio. I pointed out that the continuum of force went as follows.

Walking away with brick = passive resistance(2)
Facing Officer with brick held at waist = passive resistance(2)
Pointing firearm at suspect = Death threat(4)

Do you want to take an L on the continuum of force as well?



If I took a Sworn Oath, I would uphold that Oath to the very best of my abilities. Including understanding and following Dept Policy on de-escalation, and use of force policy; both Lethal, and non-lethal. I would implement my training and employ genuine de-escalation tactics, while formulating a non-lethal plan should those attempts at a peaceful resolution fail. I would do so with the Departments guiding principle of reverance for Human life.

You would be a pussy shithead looking to escalate the situation, but only since you had superior manpower, and far superior weaponry.




El Centro's use of force policy is public info. So is California Penal Code, as well as the California Government Code. As well as the U.S. DOJ Statutes. But just because it is public information doesn't mean just anyone has the ability to comprehend it. You don't, and that's what makes you dangerous as an expert Bird brained Shithead wannabe, as I've previously noted.

@Poon Goon
What carries more weight on "Police use of force" in El Cetro California? ECPD Policy, California Government Code, California Penal Code, AND US DOJ Statute
or;
nhbbear said so?
Dammit, I want an answer lol.


I posted their policy and California Code as source. You posted 'I said so' as a rebuttal.


With the potential for criminal prosecution as well. Some of those policies are rooted in penal code Bird Brain. You new at this? You are doing a lot of minimizing the importance of Dept Policy. That's how you advance through the rank of command, probably. Bird Brain, This is level 1 Duck Hunt. Practically everything you type is easily dispatched....... fraud.




Lethal Cover? That requires a person or persons be designated as lethal cover. That means a plan was in place. Are you suggesting that the plan was to designate lethal cover responsibilities to the shithead closest to the suspect? That's a plan that may cost 8 figures in Civil Court.

But since you opened the "Lethal Cover" door, let's have a look at El Centro PD "lethal cover" policy. Oh, They don't have one. You must have just been assuming they did. But even if they did, the ones I've read include language similar to LAPD.

The Designated Cover Officer gives other officers the ability to perform other roles,functions, and tasks with the benefit of protection against a potential deadly threat.
These include: searching areas/locations, maintaining lines of communication with thesuspect/subject, providing less-lethal force protection, controlling vehicle/pedestriantraffic, maintaining a perimeter and completing evacuations.

The Designated Cover Officer should seek to limit distractions and focus on providingforce protection while also ensuring the safe handling of their firearm. The DesignatedCover Officer should avoid engaging in lengthy communication with other officers,striving to limit their verbalization to short, tactically significant messages. The Designated Cover Officer should generally not be the person communicating with a suspect or subject.

and this one from Cambridge , Mass. Which is literally contained within their non-lethal policy manual:

Lethal Cover Officer: A designated officer who is engaged in a lethal threat encounterand ready to deploy a force option that is designed to cause serious bodily harm or death should a less lethal option be ineffective.

So in this instance, lethal cover would be an apropriate plan IN CASE less lethal failed when employed. No non-lethal plan was employed.


Shit has gone on far too long. Put this expert Bird Brain fantasy away for your own good.

Part three

And finally, it’s hilarious that you keep calling the officer that fired in self defense a “shithead” or whatever you repeated many times, but you carry water for some dead shitbird that was so full of shitbag entitlement that he felt he could just walk into a store, steal something, walk out and when the 911 caller/actual victim (along with the officer that was almost hit with a brick) he felt entitled to threaten her with seriously bodily injury or death for having the audacity to object to him doing whatever the fuxk he felt like. It’s pretty insane that you are making Vargas the victim here. The man that threatened to kill a woman and then attempted to kill an officer is your horse in this race and you’re crying because it broke its leg and got put down on the track. And maybe you’re right, maybe the family of this turd will get some money, but it’s not because it was a bad shoot. Not perfect, but not bad. If they get money, it’s because the legal and civil courts are so fucked that it pays to be the family of a shithead killed by police. It has played out time and time again and when it was applicable or information was available, I included it on every one of the cases I detailed.



In Baton Rouge A fucking phile armed with a gun, who threatened a store clerk with that gun when he asked him to stop selling stolen shit out of his car on the store lot, but that old shitbag entitlement kicked in and alton sterling decided he could do whatever the fuck he wanted and when cops tried to arrest him, he fought, was tased, and while a cop is trying to handcuff him, sterling has his hand in his pocket trying to pull out his illegal firearm when the cop ahoots him. Rather than say “well, an armed felon was shot by police while trying to get his gun out of his pocket-good riddance” riots erupted, 3 police were murdered in that city, 6 in Dallas two weeks later, and two civilians, ironically black lives matter protesters caught in the crossfire in Dallas. sterling’s family got 5 million, so if vargas family gets money, I wouldn’t be surprised because the ghetto lottery odds are pretty damn good-so long as you fit the victim du jour profile. Sterlings family got 2 million more than Philando Castile, who was not a shitbag, did nothing wrong, and the shithead cop wasn’t even charged in that murder-but that seems to be the key-the bigger the shitbag, the more money they get.



The city will see a minority person killed by police and rather than make any kind of defense such as “Vargas was violent and tried to kill an officer and he was sbot because of his actions” the city will ask if they want one of those giant, oversized checks that are given out in the actual lottery, or if they would like direct deposit. I’d opt for the oversized check for spectacle, which is what this would be.



And it’s people like you that make victims and martyrs out of these turds and ignore their part in their own demise and blamed the officer for being too close rather than place the blame on the guy threatening a woman with a brick and then actually trying to kill and officer with said brick. And you also ignore a life time of shitty choices and a dedication to the criminal lifestyle that leads cities from fighting these cases amd rewarding families for having a shitbag criminal as a family member.

 

[nhbbear]

Don't let this idiot troll you into cards or a ban, brother. They want revenge for @skold.

Yeah, keep forgetting that since the big server switch we have become a kinder, gentler sherdog. Thanks for heads-up, brother. Wait, was skold culled? Oh, that would be a sweet Christmas present

 

[Joshuaace]

I never had one use of force complaint in my entire career. I’ve had retarded mutants make complaints over the stupidest shit ever imagined, but I have never been investigated, sanctioned, disciplined, or anything like that.

C'mon Bird Brain. What Jurisdiction doesn't investigate every single Officer Misconduct complaint?

 

[Joshuaace]

You keep harping on this “they have to formulate a plan” aspect is flawed in several areas

Because it is in their policy that you continually minimize and ignore. I've given a guided tour through the policy at least once already.
Until you read and comprehend this part of ECPD policy, I'm wasting my time with you Bird Brain. You simply don't have the aptitude to comprehend. Let me know when you've read the ECPD Policy and California Code. Right now you are drowning in ignorance.

300.3.6 ALTERNATIVE TACTICS - DE-ESCALATIONAs time and circumstances reasonably permit, and when community and officer safety wouldnot be compromised, officers should consider actions that may increase officer safety and maydecrease the need for using force:
(a) Summoning additional resources that are able to respond in a reasonably timelymanner.
(b) Formulating a plan with responding officers before entering an unstable situation that does not reasonably appear to require immediate intervention.
(c) Employing other tactics that do not unreasonably increase officer jeopardy.In addition, when reasonable, officers should evaluate the totality of circumstances presented atthe time in each situation and, when feasible, consider and utilize reasonably available alternativetactics and techniques that may persuade an individual to voluntarily comply or may mitigate theneed to use a higher level of force to resolve the situation before applying force (GovernmentCode § 7286(b)). Such alternatives may include but are not limited to:

 

[Via Heeto]

Don't let this idiot troll you into cards or a ban, brother. They want revenge for @skold.

i have no idea who skold is/was. i just don't like dirty cops and this clown is/was obviously among the dirtiest. over the years he has said countless times how much he hates the community he is supposed to serve, yet for some reason, people like you love to get on your knees for him.

 

[deadshot138]

Yeah, keep forgetting that since the big server switch we have become a kinder, gentler sherdog. Thanks for heads-up, brother. Wait, was skold culled? Oh, that would be a sweet Christmas present

Yep, banned

 

[Joshuaace]

Regardless of how the officers rolled up on him whether they tried to communicate in espanol or not doesn’t matter.

That's a completely indefensible position, and you are an idiot for saying it.

I don’t care how close to Mexico this was, how Hispanic his name was, what languages he understood-it’s pretty universal that when you break the law and you have several uniformed cops surrounding you-you fucking stop doing what you’re doing.

You missing 2 days of anger management doesn't give you permission to disregard policy Bird Brain.

And finally, it’s hilarious that you keep calling the officer that fired in self defense a “shithead” or whatever you repeated many times, but you carry water for some dead shitbird

I have reverance for all Human Life, including yours. I've lived on both sides of the proverbial Railroad Tracks. Sat on both sides of the Courtroom. My totality includes a sock footed, 6am been drinking all night, happy drunk shoplifter. A mean drunk would have been aggressive in every single frame of footage. I'd wager a non vegan meal his bac is .25 or higher.

It’s pretty insane that you are making Vargas the victim here.

Vargas is dead because the Shithead used excessive force Bird Brain. The threat to the 911 caller seems a bit overstated, but that's moot as far as the totality of circumstances at the time of the final confrontation. She was not in imminent danger at that time. 4 Cops and Vargas at that intersection.

You are talking stress and adrenaline like Vargas slinging lead like the LA Bank Shootout. It's a brick pussy. Me and 2 other seniors from the VFW would have put this dude on the ground with no weapons whatsoever. Just lol at being terrified of a guy with a brick. <Lmaoo>

2nd shot is low hanging fruit and I haven't addressed it much. It's clearly punitive rather than self protective. "I get excited" is an excuse I refuse to accept. You took an oath to remain calm in the face of danger. when you say "I do solemnly swear under oath or affirmation....." that's important, and people should be held accuntable to that oath.

 

[irish_thug]

Wait, was skold culled? Oh, that would be a sweet Christmas present

Right in the middle of the year end award season.

 

[Joshuaace]

@nhbbear @Poon Goon

This is what calm in the face of danger looks like. This is how you follow protocol to apprehend a potentially violent suspect with the least amount of injury or risk possible.

Do either of you see this guy as less of an immediate danger to the Officers or Civilians than Vargas was?

You hear the Officer? "We are not going to fight." Calm as could be. "Hey, what do you have under your shirt...DONT DO THAT" chase ensues. Scuffle ensues, "about to get tazed, about to get tazed, about to get tazed". Warning the guy what weapon was going to be deployed, 1 level of force above what was being used to resist.

These Officers right here would have taken Vargas in to custody without Firearms. Much respect for the 5 Star beat Cops in this video.

 

[Poon Goon]

@nhbbear @Poon Goon

This is what calm in the face of danger looks like. This is how you follow protocol to apprehend a potentially violent suspect with the least amount of injury or risk possible.

Do either of you see this guy as less of an immediate danger to the Officers or Civilians than Vargas was?

You hear the Officer? "We are not going to fight." Calm as could be. "Hey, what do you have under your shirt...DONT DO THAT" chase ensues. Scuffle ensues, "about to get tazed, about to get tazed, about to get tazed". Warning the guy what weapon was going to be deployed, 1 level of force above what was being used to resist.

These Officers right here would have taken Vargas in to custody without Firearms. Much respect for the 5 Star beat Cops in this video.

It seems like you believe that I am in here blindly defending the shooting and the tactics used. Again, I am the one that posted the shooting because I can see where it can be argued in both directions. I never said the cops in El Centro did an excellent job. As a matter of fact I said this a page or two back.

I think many cops wouldn't have pulled the trigger due to the distance between them and the ability to dodge the brick.

Also, lol at the drunk guy in your video ready to fight everyone, but then only lasting a few seconds. I caught that one earlier today. Big fan of the Police Activity channel, just the incidents with no bullshit commentary.

 

[fica]

Part three

And finally, it’s hilarious that you keep calling the officer that fired in self defense a “shithead” or whatever you repeated many times, but you carry water for some dead shitbird that was so full of shitbag entitlement that he felt he could just walk into a store, steal something, walk out and when the 911 caller/actual victim (along with the officer that was almost hit with a brick) he felt entitled to threaten her with seriously bodily injury or death for having the audacity to object to him doing whatever the fuxk he felt like. It’s pretty insane that you are making Vargas the victim here. The man that threatened to kill a woman and then attempted to kill an officer is your horse in this race and you’re crying because it broke its leg and got put down on the track. And maybe you’re right, maybe the family of this turd will get some money, but it’s not because it was a bad shoot. Not perfect, but not bad. If they get money, it’s because the legal and civil courts are so fucked that it pays to be the family of a shithead killed by police. It has played out time and time again and when it was applicable or information was available, I included it on every one of the cases I detailed.



In Baton Rouge A fucking phile armed with a gun, who threatened a store clerk with that gun when he asked him to stop selling stolen shit out of his car on the store lot, but that old shitbag entitlement kicked in and alton sterling decided he could do whatever the fuck he wanted and when cops tried to arrest him, he fought, was tased, and while a cop is trying to handcuff him, sterling has his hand in his pocket trying to pull out his illegal firearm when the cop ahoots him. Rather than say “well, an armed felon was shot by police while trying to get his gun out of his pocket-good riddance” riots erupted, 3 police were murdered in that city, 6 in Dallas two weeks later, and two civilians, ironically black lives matter protesters caught in the crossfire in Dallas. sterling’s family got 5 million, so if vargas family gets money, I wouldn’t be surprised because the ghetto lottery odds are pretty damn good-so long as you fit the victim du jour profile. Sterlings family got 2 million more than Philando Castile, who was not a shitbag, did nothing wrong, and the shithead cop wasn’t even charged in that murder-but that seems to be the key-the bigger the shitbag, the more money they get.



The city will see a minority person killed by police and rather than make any kind of defense such as “Vargas was violent and tried to kill an officer and he was sbot because of his actions” the city will ask if they want one of those giant, oversized checks that are given out in the actual lottery, or if they would like direct deposit. I’d opt for the oversized check for spectacle, which is what this would be.



And it’s people like you that make victims and martyrs out of these turds and ignore their part in their own demise and blamed the officer for being too close rather than place the blame on the guy threatening a woman with a brick and then actually trying to kill and officer with said brick. And you also ignore a life time of shitty choices and a dedication to the criminal lifestyle that leads cities from fighting these cases amd rewarding families for having a shitbag criminal as a family member.

Man you got lot of things to say lol

 

[Joshuaace]

Big fan of the Police Activity channel, just the incidents with no bullshit commentary.

It was only in my recommendations because I watched the Vargas video a couple times dammit. Ready to get back to my regular programming of 70's music and DIY vids. I think this guy likely has mental health issues, which is why steps were taken to protect his identity. If that's indeed the case, more credit to Seattle PD who has taken some lumps recently.

 

[nhbbear]

Right in the middle of the year end award season.

Oh man, I was trying to engage him? in a thread and they refused to back up any of their shit points. I think it was the thread discussion pin cushionchauvin. Looks like I gotta edit my best ban nom