The pattern of great strikers/kickboxers who can't box in the pocket

Plus the prospect of slipping into a knee is not exactly exciting. Or getting put in a plum and tenderized. Or getting tripped. Or tangled up and thrown down.

This isn't boxing where you can literally touch forehead to forehead and keep fighting in the pocket because all you have to worry about are hands. It's not complicated, the pocket is dangerous in MMA not just because of hand strikes.
Elbows, knees, clinching, kicks, takedowns, submissions, smaller gloves...

Yes you can fight in the pocket in MMA, but it's risky.

Everytime I watch boxing now and they do that silly forehead thing I just laugh.
 
People in America are in love with boxing because they're the best at it.

But a lot of in fighting dynamics are changed in mma because of clinching, grappling and knees.

Poatan is a kickboxer, but I think his inside game is great.

Muay thai has great in fighting, but grappling can nullify some of it.

I actually think the inside game in mma is quite developed, it's just often not that pretty to watch.. clinch boxing, knees and wrestling clinches / pressing.

How is Leon going to strike on the inside if his opponent is a much better wrestler, he wouldn't be able to even get anything off.

Is America the best at it? Or is it just that for most of boxing history the communist world couldn't complete professionally? You know like most of Eastern and Central Europe? Central Asia? Russia and the Caucasus? Oh and Cuba...cannot forget Cuba. Also all the money and promotion and major organizations and media seem to be in the Western world and pander to English and Spanish speaking countries and athletes....Japan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Thailand, Ukraine, Cuba are all fairly elite. Guys like Khaosay Galaxy and Chris John were largely just avoided by westerners their entire careers. If you look at when the Soviet Union broke up and Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Ukraine and friends got to all compete individually at the world games and Olympics, the USs success rate dropped in amateur boxing directly around that time.

But you're right, Boxing is the 2024 Kung Fu, people think it's literal fucking magic sometimes.
 
Is America the best at it? Or is it just that for most of boxing history the communist world couldn't complete professionally? You know like most of Eastern and Central Europe? Central Asia? Russia and the Caucasus? Oh and Cuba...cannot forget Cuba. Also all the money and promotion and major organizations and media seem to be in the Western world and pander to English and Spanish speaking countries and athletes....Japan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Thailand, Ukraine, Cuba are all fairly elite. Guys like Khaosay Galaxy and Chris John were largely just avoided by westerners their entire careers. If you look at when the Soviet Union broke up and Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Ukraine and friends got to all compete individually at the world games and Olympics, the USs success rate dropped in amateur boxing directly around that time.

But you're right, Boxing is the 2024 Kung Fu, people think it's literal fucking magic sometimes.

Whoah dude, chill, I love eastern block / Cuban boxers, they are amazing.

Look those other countries are definitely up there, but if you had to pick one country as having the best boxing, it's the US (I know that's kinda unfair) but hey, all those other countries are def in the mix.
 
Last edited:
Whoah dude, chill, I love eastern block / Cuban boxers, they are amazing.

Look those other countries are definitely up there, but if you had to pick one country as having the best boxing, it's the US (I know that's kinda unfair) but hey, all those other countries are def in the mix.

That's largely just due to size (360m population) and the fact that the professional sport of boxing is based around the US largely. In February the number of world champs by country was 1. US 12, 2. Japan 9, 3. Mexico. Oh and I forgot to mention the Phillipines, fantastic boxers.

A lot of guys from places like Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan just never have their pro careers go anywhere. Western boxers duck they as they're high risk, low reward. Promotions don't pay them shit because they don't appeal to western demographics and many just never go pro due to the lack of pay they get vs collecting worlds and Olympic medals being more lucrative. It's why Bakhodir Jalolov is competing in the 2024 Olympic games to try and collect another gold medal instead of continuing his pro career where he was getting paid shit and getting no decent opponents because he's Uzbek....dude was one of the few shining talents the HW division had too.

I get what you're saying, I just think US Boxing is way overrated and I like calling it out. Certainly you can still make the argument it's the best.
 
That's largely just due to size (360m population) and the fact that the professional sport of boxing is based around the US largely. In February the number of world champs by country was 1. US 12, 2. Japan 9, 3. Mexico. Oh and I forgot to mention the Phillipines, fantastic boxers.

A lot of guys from places like Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan just never have their pro careers go anywhere. Western boxers duck they as they're high risk, low reward. Promotions don't pay them shit because they don't appeal to western demographics and many just never go pro due to the lack of pay they get vs collecting worlds and Olympic medals being more lucrative. It's why Bakhodir Jalolov is competing in the 2024 Olympic games to try and collect another gold medal instead of continuing his pro career where he was getting paid shit and getting no decent opponents because he's Uzbek....dude was one of the few shining talents the HW division had too.

I get what you're saying, I just think US Boxing is way overrated and I like calling it out. Certainly you can still make the argument it's the best.

Yeah for sure, the only reason I put it in my post was to underline that there's a pro boxing bias with US fans, because they view it as kind of an American staple sport.
 
Am I delusional or is there some merit to me saying this nowadays?

I feel like there's a substantial amount of guys that we consider great strikers, who have fantastic kickboxing in mma but have real problems in boxing range and inside boxing range.

Look at how Sean was able to handicap Izzy.
Or the kind of success Reyes had a few years ago vs Jones in the pocket.
And most recently, we all saw the hands of Belal of all people touching Leon very often .

There's many more examples, but you get my point.

I understand that, a lot of this noted boxing success happens against the cage and with that fighters have to be ready to defend takedowns. But my theory is that the coaches teach most of these guys to either defend the takedown when up against the cage or circle out, completely leaving actual in the pocket boxing out of the equation.


Am I babbling or do I have a point?
I think it's interesting, discuss sherexperts

Jake Paul's already shown how shit MMA strikers really are tbh.
 
Most MMA fighters, Muay Thai Fighters and Kickboxers at a high level can't fight in the pocket. In Muay Thai and MMA the reality of the clinch kinda makes it less relevant, as the ability to stymie pocket fighters by clinching is just often so present and arguably from a biomechanical level clinching is more natural and effective than fighting the pocket. Beyond this, typically guys who fight in the pocket well need to have good footwork and defense as they usually need to be able to slip, close distance and maintain close space while also defending wrestling attempts and clinches, finding openings on the break and continuing to maintain that close space. It's harder to maintain space in MMA because the Octagons and Circles are more open and don't have the 4 corners to angle off and trap people as easily as well.

Beyond this, typical fighting from the pocket takes more skill...it requires greater shot selection, tight hooks and uppercut, combination punching, going high and low intelligently. But also it requires a greater amount of defense as you have to maintain a vulnerable position and know how to slip, block and roll and be able to seamlessly chain your defense and offense to be effective in that distance...which is even harder when you don't have the security of larger gloves to help block, deflect and dampen strikes. This just isn't a skillset that's widely represented in MMA yet, the shot selection, combination punching, intelligent pressuring, footwork, defensive prowess and blending it under fire etc. And for obvious reasons as I've said...the clinch, grappling, the openness of the space and of course since this is a very highly technical aspect of boxing and MMA focuses on so much more...it's naturally not going to be as nuanced in particular things that specialist sports are. Also in MMA, the main utilization of defense is simply space, guys are avoidant of maintaining a range at which both men can exchange in...downright uncomfortable. That's why when you even see a shorter fighter successfully close distance and get off a couple shots, he usually stupidly then gives up what he earned and backs off even if not being hit on his own accord due to instincts.

Good examples of pocket fighting is Sean Strickland and Gastelum giving Izzy fits standing. Ilia dropped Volk in the pocket with a 4 or 5 punch Combo and that's like the 3rd knockout of the sort in his career. Poirier has great punching in the pocket as well and really developed some good defense consider how chinny he used to he perceived as, with effective blocking. It's like a next step, you can't train fighters the same, a lot of these quicker, more compact fighters can expose the longer guys if only they are trained properly enough and early enough to become good at closing distance, footwork, necessary defense and offensive abilities in close range.
Awesome read 😍, I love how you pointed out how a four cornered ring compared to an Octagon can change so many aspects of a fight and how and the Octagon can nullify the need to fight in the pocket. So much of fighting is still ring craft. Your position and whether you are backed up or in the case of a ring cornered can completely change how effective various strikes are.

Brilliant stuff mate :)
 
JJ has the longest reach in his division, but is doing fine in the pocket with ellbows. Reyes exposed his terrible right hand
Izzy has he longest reach in his division, of course he is not good in the pocket. Sean likes being there and applying pressure. Although I wouldn't say the fight was a lot in the pocket, just close range.
Edwards once again is taller and has more reach than Belol, but being asleep and throwing only 70 sig strikes in 25 minutes, doesn't help

So being long and tall has disadvantages in the pocket, if you don't have great ellbows.
 
You are totally babling. In thousands fights you can also find examples of kickboxers dominating in fight based punchers.

Old saying "Kick the puncher, punch the kicker".
 
In MMA, you're considered elite with a jab

<TheWire1>
Well yeah because as an MMA fighter you learn multiple disciplines so having a legit jab is valuable lol boxers only have to learn boxing, that's it. Not saying boxing is weaker or anything but there's nothing bad about MMA fighters being praised for having a great jab.
 
Something more interesting to me is that almost every good one the pocket fighter is 145 and above.

It rarely happens at 125 and 135. Guys move too much. Disengage. Circling.

It's a lot more darting in throwing single shots and then exiting.
 
I don’t think anyone has mentioned him yet but Cormier had phenomenal dirty boxing, and if you include the eye rakes he was truly something special in the pocket. As we all know, the power comes from the legs, and the foot work dictates where that power is going to go. If you’re in the pocket and youre using a wide stance to try and rip hooks into someone a basic level grappler can sink in a single leg pretty easily. If you’re working narrow to try and get a couple quick uppercuts and softer hooks from the clinch you’re probably going to be there for the body lock. You have to be a really well rounded fighter and utilize the threat of a takedown to get some solid work in from the pocket for mma at least. The clinch has destroyed modern day boxing and doesn’t allow guys to work, and as for Muay Thai it certainly has its place but if someone catches on to your timing you’re risking eating a big step in elbow or step in knee.
 
He's fought nobodies or guys way past their prime. That's a ridiculous claim.

I don't think it's ridiculous when a Disney Youtuber dedicates a few years to learning boxing and then suddenly beats professional fighters who have been training it in part for their whole careers.

It's an embarrassment to MMA imo.
 
I don't think it's ridiculous when a Disney Youtuber dedicates a few years to learning boxing and then suddenly beats professional fighters who have been training it in part for their whole careers.

It's an embarrassment to MMA imo.
Would Jake Paul be embarassed if he fought a real boxer or had to fight in MMA?
 
Am I delusional or is there some merit to me saying this nowadays?

I feel like there's a substantial amount of guys that we consider great strikers, who have fantastic kickboxing in mma but have real problems in boxing range and inside boxing range.

Look at how Sean was able to handicap Izzy.
Or the kind of success Reyes had a few years ago vs Jones in the pocket.
And most recently, we all saw the hands of Belal of all people touching Leon very often .

There's many more examples, but you get my point.

I understand that, a lot of this noted boxing success happens against the cage and with that fighters have to be ready to defend takedowns. But my theory is that the coaches teach most of these guys to either defend the takedown when up against the cage or circle out, completely leaving actual in the pocket boxing out of the equation.


Am I babbling or do I have a point?
I think it's interesting, discuss sherexperts

It takes years of practice, fighting on the inside, as a boxer.

There are many professional boxers even, who can't even stay focused on the inside, they have to grab and hold, etc.
It is a rare professional that can be deep in the pocket, NOT hold, keep their head, stay focused and relaxed, and execute textbook punches.

Guys like Chavez, Duran, Hakki, etc. are rare

Most kickboxers can't deal with inside fighting like this, which is why the way to beat them is just to stay on their ass.
Most MMA practitioners can't deal with fighting like this, because they grab and hold, go for the takedown, etc.

Those MMA practitioners, who are good wrestlers — and offer of threat that way — but who can fiist-fight on the inside — will always be hard to beat.
 
Back
Top