The kickfighting establishment is rotten to the core

To be honest with you, the "Thais can't box" is not completely inaccurate considering how Muay Thai is fought and scored in the stadiums. The majority of the Thais who transition to Kickboxing have that gap to fill. Just look at what happened to Thongchai. I'm not saying they can't learn western boxing or do great in it, as history proves some of the best Muay Thai fighters got world titles in western boxing, however the majority of the current Muay Thai fighters from the stadiums do have less good hands than the typical Kickboxer from Europe or even Japan (but they are indeed stronger in other departments such as kicking, clinching, tripping and knees).

So then why do kickboxers suck at boxing, seeing as how their hands are so much better than muay thai fighters? If you interpret the question can Thai fighters box literally, the answer is obviously yes. They have the credentials to prove it. If you stick the average stadium nak muay against your average kickboxing in a boxing bout, the Thai is almost certainly going to win. Seeing as how they actually train and compete in boxing. It isn't just a few muay thai fighters who have won titles in boxing or had success, virtually every Thai who's had success in boxing has come from a muay thai background and usually a deep one. And there are a zillion other former nak muays who accomplish good things in boxing even if they never win major titles, certainly way more than most kickboxers ever. Where is the evidence that your average kickboxer from Europe has better hands than Thais? Based on Sittichai, Yodsanklai, Kaew, Jomthong and Buakaw's fights against kickboxers? They have way better hands than pretty much all the guys they fight. If your saying that stadium fighters don't punch or "box" when they fight muay thai, then that's one thing, but to say that they are incapable of boxing well regardless of context is totally untrue.

If you've followed the Thailand thread at all you'll see that we post things about stadium fighters competing in amateur boxing tournaments all the time. Boxing is something which the vast majority of Thai fighters do on the side.
 
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To be honest with you, the "Thais can't box" is not completely inaccurate considering how Muay Thai is fought and scored in the stadiums. The majority of the Thais who transition to Kickboxing have that gap to fill. Just look at what happened to Thongchai. I'm not saying they can't learn western boxing or do great in it, as history proves some of the best Muay Thai fighters got world titles in western boxing, however the majority of the current Muay Thai fighters from the stadiums do have less good hands than the typical Kickboxer from Europe or even Japan (but they are indeed stronger in other departments such as kicking, clinching, tripping and knees).


Below is just a list of Thais who have done kickboxing that was just posted as another thread. In it we have Jomthong who fought for a world boxing title, Pajonsuk who won a medal at the asian games and represented Thailand at the olympics. We have other guys like Sirimonkol who was a world champion in boxing and Suriya who won a medal at the olympics. Do you know of any kickboxers from Europe who have comparable accomplishments in boxing? And these are just guys who have done kickboxing. But you don't think this is indicative of a more general trend? It isn't as though there's a handful of exceptions who are great boxers but all the rest are trash. It would be pretty unlikely, if there were muay thai fighters who were world class boxers but there was some huge drop off in talent to the point that all the rest of them were as terrible as you say they are. In order for muay thai to produce a world class talent there would have to be alot of false starts, some guys who try it and do badly, some who try it and do ok and then eventually you get someone like Khaopong who's elite. So needless to say, you get boxers of all different levels who come out of muay thai, some of whom are great, some of whom aren't, and some who are in between. Because pretty much all muay thai fighters box.


Let's find out why kickboxing commentators always talk about thais having trouble adapting to kickboxing. Maybe i've forgotten some, and some of them probably only have like 1 KB fight, but the ones i know from the top of my head are these

Buakaw
Jomthong
Kaew
Superbon
Sittichai
Kem
Yodkhunpon
Yodsanklai
Singmanee
Singdam
Pajonsuk Superpro samui
Pajonsuk por Pramuk
Sagadpetch
Sudsakorn (i think, not sure though)
Lerdsila
Gonnapar
Kaoklai
Sakmongkol
Changpuek Kiatsongkrit
Jomhod Kiatadisak
Petchtanong
Aikpracha

Do you think any of them were not able to adopt to kickboxing rules due to their muay thai background?
 
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If enough people online, on just this forum, started to create a narrative about how much kickboxing organisations like Glory could benefit from signing Thais more influential people might start to take notice and then might think about signing another.

if enough people started to create informative threads abous thai fighters people might start to take notice.

seriously, you know a lot about muay thai. I would love to read insight from you. why not make a simple rankings thread, keep it updated? people love that silly rankings shit.
 
No. But why would I do something which is stupid and caters to the lowest common denominator?

It was just the first, most obvious example of something that could be done to draw people to Muay Thai. How about making separate threads for the most stacked Stadium shows breaking down the matchups and giving some light to how the promotions work within mt?

There is the mega card coming up with Pet U Thong, Panpayak, Sangmanee, Superlek, and Petmorakot.
 
So then why do kickboxers suck at boxing, seeing as how their hands are so much better than muay thai fighters? If you interpret the question can Thai fighters box literally, the answer is obviously yes. They have the credentials to prove it. If you stick the average stadium nak muay against your average kickboxing in a boxing bout, the Thai is almost certainly going to win. Seeing as how they actually train and compete in boxing. It isn't just a few muay thai fighters who have won titles in boxing or had success, virtually every Thai who's had success in boxing has come from a muay thai background and usually a deep one. And there are a zillion other former nak muays who accomplish good things in boxing even if they never win major titles, certainly way more than most kickboxers ever. Where is the evidence that your average kickboxer from Europe has better hands than Thais? Based on Sittichai, Yodsanklai, Kaew, Jomthong and Buakaw's fights against kickboxers? They have way better hands than pretty much all the guys they fight. If your saying that stadium fighters don't punch or "box" when they fight muay thai, then that's one thing, but to say that they are incapable of boxing well regardless of context is totally untrue.

If you've followed the Thailand thread at all you'll see that we post things about stadium fighters competing in amateur boxing tournaments all the time. Boxing is something which the vast majority of Thai fighters do on the side.

You completely ignored what I explained. Your examples of Buakaw, Sittichai, Yod etc. are guys who incorporated a lot of western boxing training and sparring in their camps. Hell if you even watch Buakaw when he first started in Kickboxing please don't tell me his hands were his strength, if anything that was his weakness, hence why he kept at kicking range and clinched in punching range. He dominated K-1 in 2004 but not because of his hands, and when he won again in 2006 he had improved his hands a lot and used them a lot more. When he nearly got KO'd by Dida and when he got KO'd by Sato that's exactly the weakness that was exploited, just like Masato did when he beat him in 2007, and I'm saying that as a huge Buakaw fan. Nothing wrong with admitting that. If you fail to recognise weaknesses because of your Thai bias then there's no point arguing with you.

Yes, some do train and fight in western boxing and do great, but again if you take a typical stadium MT fighter who doesn't focus on western boxing unlike the Banchamek and Sitsongpeenong camps do, their hands typically won't be their strength.

Again I'm not saying they're incapable, I'm saying by default that's not their strength. Look at Petchpanomrung winning the tournament at the weekend. He did great, but what's the one thing he's gotta improve? His hands. Just like we said the same thing about Sittichai when he started in KB before heavily training western boxing as part of his camp.

The same could be said about western fighters and the clinch, it tends to be their weakness when fighting Thais.

There's nothing wrong with admitting strength and weaknesses. And once again I'm not saying they're incapable, I'm saying by default that's clearly not their strength.
 
That's why I'm not going to do it.

And that's why everybody sees you as a biased whiner instead of somebody who would positively contribute to change the issue you supposedly identified. Whining and pointing fingers doesn't get things changed, just take positive action instead.
 
Posting ranting giant walls of text will definitely encourage organizations to sign a slew more fighters who don't speak english, don't come from a $-value market and don't have a high finish rate.

I predict that exactly zero "influential people" will read these rants and conclude that guy is an audience they want to cater to.

You are a purist; purists do not consider marketing and casual fans. That's fine, it is what it is, but don't get confused and think that purism is somehow more worthy than marketing and promotion. One puts money in the fighter pockets, the other kills organizations - where is Muay Thai Premier League now?

In fact, where is any western promotion which tried to take Thai fighters to prominence outside of Thailand? The graveyard, is where.
 
Posting ranting giant walls of text will definitely encourage organizations to sign a slew more fighters who don't speak english, don't come from a $-value market and don't have a high finish rate.

I predict that exactly zero "influential people" will read these rants and conclude that guy is an audience they want to cater to.

You are a purist; purists do not consider marketing and casual fans. That's fine, it is what it is, but don't get confused and think that purism is somehow more worthy than marketing and promotion. One puts money in the fighter pockets, the other kills organizations - where is Muay Thai Premier League now?

In fact, where is any western promotion which tried to take Thai fighters to prominence outside of Thailand? The graveyard, is where.

well it worked very well for thais and international talent in china...hopefully western promotion will learn too.
being a "purist" and understanding basic marketing are not mutually exclusive.
 
You completely ignored what I explained. Your examples of Buakaw, Sittichai, Yod etc. are guys who incorporated a lot of western boxing training and sparring in their camps. Hell if you even watch Buakaw when he first started in Kickboxing please don't tell me his hands were his strength, if anything that was his weakness, hence why he kept at kicking range and clinched in punching range. He dominated K-1 in 2004 but not because of his hands, and when he won again in 2006 he had improved his hands a lot and used them a lot more. When he nearly got KO'd by Dida and when he got KO'd by Sato that's exactly the weakness that was exploited, just like Masato did when he beat him in 2007, and I'm saying that as a huge Buakaw fan. Nothing wrong with admitting that. If you fail to recognise weaknesses because of your Thai bias then there's no point arguing with you.

Yes, some do train and fight in western boxing and do great, but again if you take a typical stadium MT fighter who doesn't focus on western boxing unlike the Banchamek and Sitsongpeenong camps do, their hands typically won't be their strength.

Again I'm not saying they're incapable, I'm saying by default that's not their strength. Look at Petchpanomrung winning the tournament at the weekend. He did great, but what's the one thing he's gotta improve? His hands. Just like we said the same thing about Sittichai when he started in KB before heavily training western boxing as part of his camp.

The same could be said about western fighters and the clinch, it tends to be their weakness when fighting Thais.

There's nothing wrong with admitting strength and weaknesses. And once again I'm not saying they're incapable, I'm saying by default that's clearly not their strength.

I think it is clear that anyone not blind that Thai boxers have weaker hands than say, euro kickboxers. Just like kickboxers have weaker knees, elbows and clinching than Thai fighters (kicks are debatable).

Hell, you can even be a highly ranked stadium fighter like Muangthai without even throwing punches.

But what's the problem anyways? They are different sports with different focus.

Oh I just realised that we are saying the same thing :-)
 
I think it is clear that anyone not blind that Thai boxers have weaker hands than say, euro kickboxers. Just like kickboxers have weaker knees, elbows and clinching than Thai fighters (kicks are debatable).

Hell, you can even be a highly ranked stadium fighter like Muangthai without even throwing punches.

But what's the problem anyways? They are different sports with different focus.

Oh I just realised that we are saying the same thing :)

This has been debunked multiple times though. Lumping all thai boxers in under one umbrella doesn't work given that there so many different sub styles of muay thai within thailand. Yes there are fighters like muangthai that rarely throw punches but there are also guys like tanonchai and petchartchai that throw a lot of punches. Throwing a higher quantity of punches doesnt mean you are a better boxer either, and it should be noted that punches are more easily stifled under thai rules than kickboxing. I mean there are so many examples of muay thai fighters doing well in boxing....Significantly more than european fighters.
 
Posting ranting giant walls of text will definitely encourage organizations to sign a slew more fighters who don't speak english, don't come from a $-value market and don't have a high finish rate.

I predict that exactly zero "influential people" will read these rants and conclude that guy is an audience they want to cater to.

You are a purist; purists do not consider marketing and casual fans. That's fine, it is what it is, but don't get confused and think that purism is somehow more worthy than marketing and promotion. One puts money in the fighter pockets, the other kills organizations - where is Muay Thai Premier League now?

In fact, where is any western promotion which tried to take Thai fighters to prominence outside of Thailand? The graveyard, is where.

Don't see how wanting to see the best fighters makes you a 'purist'. This type of thinking would be ludicrous in pretty much every other sport that I follow. And it's not like jtwarwagon is asking for the entire roster to be thai either.......
 
K1 and It's Showtime both had their wretched and discriminatory 1 Thai hiring policies, so that Buakaw was the only Thai who actually got consistent opportunities in major kickboxing promotions. And these policies continue to be applied today by both K1 and Glory

Thongchai, Sitthichai and Petchpanomrung read your post and are now concerned that two of them have to leave Glory to comply with the one-Thai rule that nobody knew existed. Pick two and let them know they have to bail.

Although this is certainly a disgusting and embarrassing reflection on the kickboxing promotions themselves they do not bear the blame alone. Portions of the kickfighting community share a substantial amount of the blame. They played, and continue to play, a role in enforcing the status quo by the creation of false narratives, which regardless of the intentions with which they were conceived, have been used to justify the way Thais were and are treated. People within the kickfighting community, either journalist or people on forums or however, have claimed over and over, totally without evidence since Thais were almost never granted opportunities in kickboxing, that either there was no reason to think that the average Thai could succeed or that when bringing a Thai into kickboxing it was a big question mark. Look no further, for evidence of the pervasiveness of this false narrative, than Glory commentator Joseph Valtellini who brings it up every time he calls a fight involving a Thai. Stereotypes about the ways in which Thais, supposedly, fight serve to reinforce such notions. Since Thais, allegedly, can't punch, don't have footwork, don't move their head, etc., then of course they won't succeed in kickboxing. I need hardly add that such claims were almost never made about specific Thais or Thais who had fought in kickboxing but almost always about an abstract Thai boogeyman. And all Thais, allegedly, fight this way; they are completely homogeneous and without individuality. The label for this style of fighting is, of course, "traditional muay thai", in contrast to the "modern styles of muay thai" (dutch style, brazilian etc.) which, allegedly, are very effective. It should be obvious, given the success of fighters like Sittichai, Superbon, Kaew Fairtex that such stereotypes were in no way rooted in fact or, even if they were, have no relevance for determining whether someone will be a successful kickboxer or not. Of course many people already knew that what the upholders of the status quo were saying was bullshit and many of them said as much. In fact many people did and do go further and claimed that the reason for the policies to keep the Thais down was cowardice. And the reason for keeping the Thais out was that kickboxing promotions feared, with good reason, that the Thais would dominate their divisions, if they were given comparable opportunities to fighters from the Netherlands, Japan, America, Oceania etc. However, and this bring me to another point about the ways in which kickfighting community enforced the status quo through false narratives, there was and continues to be a significant effort to discredit people who criticise the kickfighting status quo. Although it amounts to little more than name calling, the critics of the status quo were singled out as being so biased and blinded by their love for the Thais that their criticisms weren't legitimate. These are the so called "Thai nuthuggers", "Thai elitists", "Thai fanboys", etc. Prior to the last couple of years it was often claimed that, since we had hardly seen any Thais had succeed in kickboxing, the whole idea that Thais would dominate kickboxing, if given the chance, was obviously the result of a strong bias. However, since at the time Thais were hardly ever given opportunities to prove themselves in kickboxing, it was very difficult for the "Thai fanboys" to refute such claims. Now, however, it seems pretty obvious that the fanboys are right and that Thais will dominate their weight classes in kickboxing, if given the chance, since they are already well on their way to doing so.

literally cannot even read this giant wall of text, does your computer have an enter/return button so that you can insert line breaks?

...It is my vein hope that those "experts" who have or continue to manufacture bullshit about muay thai will have their feet held to the fire or be subject to some form of sadistic, culture revolutionary style, "self criticism". In which they will be force to publicly recant their crimes against the Thais.
this, in addition to your solid block of text rants, makes you seem mentally ill
 
Don't see how wanting to see the best fighters makes you a 'purist'. This type of thinking would be ludicrous in pretty much every other sport that I follow. And it's not like jtwarwagon is asking for the entire roster to be thai either.......

because most of the other sports you follow are not marketed around individuals and personalities the way that fight sports are. It's why charisma is such a huge part of fight sports and why Conor McGregor is a star and Matt Lindland / Jon Fitch / Rory McDonald are not.
 
being a "purist" and understanding basic marketing are not mutually exclusive.

they almost always are. Successful marketing is about catering to the casual fan and having them dip into their pocket. Purism is about catering to the hardcore fan. The two sets of fans often have markedly different criteria for what they would consider interesting.

Think of all the people with absolutely dead flat personalities who have made a fortune in fight sports - not many.
Contrast that with the amount of guys who are popular well above the level of their skills/fighting ability - quite a lot.

Charisma and personality are huge parts of marketing. Hence it does not make sense for a promotion to fill its ranks with people who cannot communicate with fans.

And this extends to fighters from anywhere - Marat Grigorian is a killer, but can he tell you his story? Harut Grigorian has a crazy style and brings the war - do you know a thing about him?

Artem Vakhitov is pound for pound one of the best in kickboxing right now but his profile remains low. He however is working super hard on his English right now with a view to changing this, being able to engage with western audiences and thereby translating that into higher profile, which means sponsors and more money. And makes him more saleable.

The long and short of it is that a promotion doesn't need more than a handful of good Thai fighters same as it doesn't need more than a handful of good Chinese or good French or good Russian.

And for sure Glory would sign Superbon and Yod if they were not locked up super tight in their Chinese contracts.
 
You are a purist; purists do not consider marketing and casual fans. That's fine, it is what it is, but don't get confused and think that purism is somehow more worthy than marketing and promotion. One puts money in the fighter pockets, the other kills organizations - where is Muay Thai Premier League now?

Muay Thai Premier League is your idea of a "purist" promotion? Hahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many thais did they have? like 2? Niecky Holken and Marco Pique are sure representative of what every muay thai "purist" wants to see! HHAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAHAAAAAA! You are a total idiot.
 
You completely ignored what I explained. Your examples of Buakaw, Sittichai, Yod etc. are guys who incorporated a lot of western boxing training and sparring in their camps. Hell if you even watch Buakaw when he first started in Kickboxing please don't tell me his hands were his strength, if anything that was his weakness, hence why he kept at kicking range and clinched in punching range. He dominated K-1 in 2004 but not because of his hands, and when he won again in 2006 he had improved his hands a lot and used them a lot more. When he nearly got KO'd by Dida and when he got KO'd by Sato that's exactly the weakness that was exploited, just like Masato did when he beat him in 2007, and I'm saying that as a huge Buakaw fan. Nothing wrong with admitting that. If you fail to recognise weaknesses because of your Thai bias then there's no point arguing with you.

Ok. First of all as I already said pretty much all thais box. They pretty much all compete in boxing and cross train in it. There is nothing special about the way Buakaw, Yodsanklai, Sittichai, and whichever other thais who have had success in kickboxing, train. Buakaw came from Por Pramuk gym. This gym produced two world boxing champions both of whom were former nak muays and other guys at the camp like Namsaknoi also boxed, albeit at a lower level. So it is actually quite likely that Buakaw was exposed to and knowledgeable about boxing way before he came into K1. Especially since, according to you, he knew nothing about boxing prior to his run in k1 and then miraculously was able to become a good enough boxer in the space of just over a year to pwn guys like Souwer, Holzken, Drago, with his hands, who according to you have great boxing. The most likely reason he fought the way he did during the 2004 K1 WGP is because first of all it worked and second of all it was how he was used to fighting in muay thai. Once K1 changed the rules he already had his boxing technique in his back pocket and now had to use it.

And Sato ko'd him with a knee, it had nothing to do with boxing.
 
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^^^^
I think the TS is actually slowly loosing it.

We should all tell him what he wants to hear.
 
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