The Jordan Peterson Thread - V2 -

[Renard]

Sorry I misremembered the quote, and you're right that he didn't specifically note that individualism is left leaning, but he did specifically note that he considers himself a classic British liberal and I dare you to find a concept more identifiable with classic liberalism than individualism.

You're just plain wrong. Individualism is a pillar of liberalism.

Now you're going on about random nonsense and new goal posts, admit you're wrong and move on. Ever heard of socialism and communism? I don't know why you feel the need to get your panties in a twist defending your "side", the left. People are attracted to the idea that all the evil is on the other "side" of their political affiliation, and that if you just follow the "correct" side then no harm can happen. That's so dumb, there's no simple solution like this anywhere in life.

 

[Rational Poster]

Now you're going on about random nonsense and new goal posts, admit you're wrong and move on. Ever heard of socialism and communism? I don't know why you feel the need to get your panties in a twist defending your "side", the left. People are attracted to the idea that all the evil is on the other "side" of their political affiliation, and that if you just follow the "correct" side then no harm can happen. That's so dumb, there's no simple solution like this anywhere in life.

The fuck are you on about??? I didn't move any goal post, you're failing to address the goalpost you set.

Individualism is one of the main concepts of liberalism. Period.

It's not a debate.

 

[Rational Poster]

We are at full employment right now, and it's never been easier to make a shit-ton of money. Today, if you can write your own software in your basement, you can make billions. Snap, Facebook, Instagram, Uber, Air BnB, etc. all required little overhead. I understand that there is economic stratification happening, but there is also huge opportunity in specific sectors. 40 years ago, if you wanted to make this kind of money, you needed millions in start-up capital. Right now, sharing seems to not be incentivized or advantageous for many people, so I can't really say that collectivism seems to be the best answer for us right now. Right now, individualism seems to be working well, even if it's not working for everyone.

Automation will be an issue for us in the future. There's actually a pretty good thread where @IGIT @sickc0d3r , and I were discussing it. You should come on over! It's Viva Revolution's thread.

We've been collectivists for nearly a century now.

 

[sub_thug]

We've been collectivists for nearly a century now.

That's not true. The Chinese, Japanese, and other East Asian countries have been collectivists. The Soviets were collectivists. We have always been individualists in this country. At times, we were fiercely individualistic, whereas other times have been much more mild. Today, we are expressing it in terms of social liberties, so things like gender, sexuality, race, and religion, but this is still a discussion about the merits of individual freedoms. The tide is out, so to speak, about individual economic freedoms, but it's an ebb and flow thing. We are still a nation of individuals.

 

[Rational Poster]

That's not true. The Chinese, Japanese, and other East Asian countries have been collectivists. The Soviets were collectivists. We have always been individualists in this country. At times, we were fiercely individualistic, whereas other times have been much more mild. Today, we are expressing it in terms of social liberties, so things like gender, sexuality, race, and religion, but this is still a discussion about the merits of individual freedoms. The tide is out, so to speak, about individual economic freedoms, but it's an ebb and flow thing. We are still a nation of individuals.

It is 100% true.

What is Social Security? What is Medicare/Medicaid? What is SNAP? Government backed mortgages and student loans and all sorts of insurances?

How are these not collectivist institutions?

The idea that we're purely individualistic is an argument based on feelings not fact.

 

[Islam Imamate]

At the same time, I have heard a number of arguments about abolishing the death penalty due to morality, allusions to the goals of the Great Society for morality, a disdain for capitalism because of morality, a disdain for foreign policy decisions (partly in regards to supporting or opposing military intervention) due to morality, and the whole argument for "fair trade" is entirely centered around morality. Even though it's not quite as convenient as a campaign slogan, a sense of morality and the appeal of liberalism are inextricably linked.

Well yes people are guided by their moral compasses but having a moral compass and possessing misguided sense of morality that's not grounded in reason or logic at all are two different things.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I guess I just classify people by their actual political positions and not based on assumptions and who donates some money to them.

I don't believe it's "throwing red meat" to be constantly pushing back against and mocking the insanity that has been spreading on the far left for the last 3 years. They are attempting to normalize more and more insanity with each passing day:
-small children should have the ability to change their sex
- not using made up gender pronouns is hate and you should be fined or jailed for it
-gender, sex, sexuality, and "gender expression" are all independent of one another. Not believing that is hateful and bigoted
- not wanting the importation of hundreds of thousands or millions of people that believe homosexuals should be killed along with Islamic apostates and adulterers is xenophobic and hateful


These causes are advanced every single day on social media, on campuses, in legislatures and elsewhere. This insanity needs to be constantly pushed back against and doing so isn't "throwing red meat"

There's plenty of trouble coming from the right as well but he doesn't quite care about that and continues to hyper focus on college students flipping over trashcans.

Again, its fine to be a right wing pundit but my distaste with Rubin is that he pretends he isn't and obfuscates with the term liberal and liberalism to present a misleading picture.

 

[Der Eisbär]

It is 100% true.

What is Social Security? What is Medicare/Medicaid? What is SNAP? Government backed mortgages and student loans and all sorts of insurances?

How are these not collectivist institutions?

The idea that we're purely individualistic is an argument based on feelings not fact.

By this metric, government itself is collectivist. The military is collectivist. It's not. Government is just a medium through which we organize our political institutions and mediate the interest of individuals and their groups

 

[sub_thug]

It is 100% true.

What is Social Security? What is Medicare/Medicaid? What is SNAP? Government backed mortgages and student loans and all sorts of insurances?

How are these not collectivist institutions?

The idea that we're purely individualistic is an argument based on feelings not fact.

Those are social services provided as a safety net. Do not conflate a handful of government services, some of which are extremely unpopular, with being a society of collectivists. And I didn't say that we were purely individualistic. But we are mostly individualistic.

 

[sub_thug]

Well yes people are guided by their moral compasses but having a moral compass and possessing misguided sense of morality that's not grounded in reason or logic at all are two different things.

Yeah. Like I said, I was young. Young people do dumb stuff.

 

[Rational Poster]

Those are social services provided as a safety net. Do not conflate a handful of government services, some of which are extremely unpopular, with being a society of collectivists. And I didn't say that we were purely individualistic. But we are mostly individualistic.

I never said we were either, I specially said a dash of collectivism and your panties got in a bunch.

 

[sub_thug]

I never said we were either, I specially said a dash of collectivism and your panties got in a bunch.

We've been collectivists for nearly a century now.

You said nothing of a dash. Now, you're just lying and using inflammatory language because you're hoping that I sink down to your level and make this into a fight.

 

[Islam Imamate]

By this metric, government itself is collectivist. The military is collectivist. It's not. Government is just a medium through which we organize our political institutions and mediate the interest of individuals and their groups

Key word here is "we", as in "we" the people of America(i.e. a collective of individuals)

 

[FIMN]

Because by and large, identity politics are used far more on the left than the right. The left has adopted identity politics as their standard mode of operations whereas on the right, white identity is only used on the far right (the alt right, the ethno nationalists). So in this way, Peterson's anti identity politics rhetoric is far more damaging to the left than the right.

Is that true? Seems not in all places.

The entire republican platform is based on racial resentment and identity politics. I didn't hear much identity politics from Bernie or Hillary in the runup to the 2016 election, at least in comparison to economic policy. Trump pretty much relied on identity politics.

 

[Rational Poster]

You said nothing of a dash. Now, you're just lying and using inflammatory language because you're hoping that I sink down to your level and make this into a fight.

Yeah I did. Read the start of the conversation.

If you click the arrow next to the quote, it'll take you to the post. Keep doing that till you get to my original statement on this issue and get back to me.

 

[Rational Poster]

Is that true? Seems not in all places.

The entire republican platform is based on racial resentment and identity politics. I didn't hear much identity politics from Bernie or Hillary in the runup to the 2016 election, at least in comparison to economic policy. Trump pretty much relied on identity politics.

It's not identity politics when you whine about Mexicans or Muslims or White Genocide.

It's only identity politics when you talk about LGBT issues.

 

[Rational Poster]

By this metric, government itself is collectivist. The military is collectivist.

This is true.

Especially the military. Their lives are planned sun up to sun down. Every ounce of material needed for their existence is provided by someone else. The army does not forage anymore and even if they were in a situation in which foraging became necessary, the spoils would be doled out in accordance to rank yet no one would go hungry. Everyone is treated nearly the same as you could ever hope humans to treat each other. Their lives are paid for by someone else, their education is paid for by someone else, and those benefits extend to their families as well. The entire organization from squad level is designed around the concept of shared responsibility, redundancy, and cooperation. Most importantly they all work together for one purpose.

Not only is there no individualism in the military, it is frowned upon and culled from the ranks. There is a standard for everything down to personal appearance.

 

[sub_thug]

Yeah I did. Read the start of the conversation.

If you click the arrow next to the quote, it'll take you to the post. Keep doing that till you get to my original statement on this issue and get back to me.

If you want to go find something that you didn’t say to me, fine. But I’m not jumping through your hoops because you’re lazy.

 

[Rational Poster]

If you want to go find something that you didn’t say to me, fine. But I’m not jumping through your hoops because you’re lazy.

Dude, it's at the top of the page. Really not a lot of work.

Just admit you were wrong and we can move on. I hate when people try to act smart but then act all lazy when called out on it.

Below is the start of our interaction. It wasn't something I said to someone else. It was a post of mine that you quoted.

Sorry for expecting you to remember things in our own conversation.

That's only because we're reaching a point in society where a dash of collectivism is more beneficial to the individual.

There are too many people and not enough work. This problem is going to get worse as time goes on and automation forces the permanent retirement of hundreds of millions of workers faster than jobs can be created for them.

Sharing is preferable to the alternative.

We are at full employment right now, and it's never been easier to make a shit-ton of money. Today, if you can write your own software in your basement, you can make billions. Snap, Facebook, Instagram, Uber, Air BnB, etc. all required little overhead. I understand that there is economic stratification happening, but there is also huge opportunity in specific sectors. 40 years ago, if you wanted to make this kind of money, you needed millions in start-up capital. Right now, sharing seems to not be incentivized or advantageous for many people, so I can't really say that collectivism seems to be the best answer for us right now. Right now, individualism seems to be working well, even if it's not working for everyone.

Automation will be an issue for us in the future. There's actually a pretty good thread where @IGIT @sickc0d3r , and I were discussing it. You should come on over! It's Viva Revolution's thread.

 

[Der Eisbär]

Is that true? Seems not in all places.

The entire republican platform is based on racial resentment and identity politics. I didn't hear much identity politics from Bernie or Hillary in the runup to the 2016 election, at least in comparison to economic policy. Trump pretty much relied on identity politics.

Hillary openly used racial rhetoric, addressing "white privilege" and how we need to recognize it. Bernie didn't employ identity politics during his run which is why I liked him, but he has since embraced them unfortunately.

I don't get where you're coming from that the gop are based on racial resentment. Certainly in the past that has been true, like decades ago, but much of that has faded with a lingering spirit still remaining. I don't see the gop and right leaning news openly hostile to and condemning entire swathes of society based on their skin color or gender. However on the left we get to hear from npr, bbc, msnbc, the hill, vox, buzzfeed and MTV about how evil white people are. How all whites are racist. How racism towards whites is impossible. How all men are sexual predators. Etc etc