The Hook Debate: Palm in or Palm down? (17 threads mashed together, have fun)

[djason1988]

Hello everybody,

I just started MT about 3 weeks ago. I took Shorinryu karate when I was growing up for about 8 years and competed in AAU point sparring tournaments and did quite well. Now at 27 and my career having me stay in the office and traveling down, I am able to train and practice the martial arts again, and I chose to learn MT.

My instructor is working with me to get out of that point karate mindset and transition into the MT approach and techniques. My biggest struggle is with the hook. Why does it feel so uncomfortable to me? I have np with jabs, crosses, overhands and even my elbows.

My instructor said there are two ways to throw a hook. One way with thumb up and other way with thumb on the side. Is this just a preferance thing? The way I am thinking is that the thumb on the side hook has more power. But on other note, I see mostly with thumb up position.

I apologize for wall of text, I want to get my information down and find my hook so I can get my rhythm down etc.

Awesome, I've done Shorin-ryu my whole life, and used to compete regularly in aau tournaments. The problem with AAU though is they're way too strict on technique, as in hooks aren't allowed cuz they're "not proper karate techniques". When I transitioned to open tournaments, I found that not only did I not know how to perform a proper hook, but I had also developed a strange tunnel vision since I wasn't use to attacks coming from anywhere but straight ahead (and lets face it, nobody in AAU karate can kick worth a damn to mix things up). Honestly though, I found that if you rotate your hips and step out slightly as you punch, your hook turns into a straight plus a shitload of power from the hip rotation, so I found hooks to be kinda unnecessary. But if you must, then just make sure to get the full hip rotation and not to overextend.

 

[muaythaiguy3]

I've only had palm down if im coming over a right hand and angling down. besides that, never

 

[Connoisseur]

The difference between thumb up (condit) and palm down (hardy):

 

[Steakeater**]

Yeah but the difference isnt why Hardy got KO'd

 

[Connoisseur]

I'd say it was. If Hardy had turned his hook over it would've hit square on Carlos' jawline. Instead it hit his neck.

Hardy KO'd Farber with a technically correct hook

Dunno why he threw it palm down against Condit, but it landed first, and if it were turned over it would've done more damage IMO.

 

[lts5025]

I've always been taught thumb up for hooks to the body, thumb towards you for hooks to the chin. I like the feels of thumb up for both because thumb towards you feels so unnatural. But for me, as usually the shorter fighter, throwing hooks to the chin with the thumb up leaves my wrist at an awkward angle when I make impact and I often hurt my wrist doing it. Forcing myself to throw hooks to the chin with the thumb towards me results in my knuckles, wrist and elbow being in a nice, strong, straight line at impact.

A boxing coach told me that what I just explained was the reason for the difference. My Muay Thai coach told me to do it that way because a hook with the thumb towards you can come up and over someone's guard and then down into their chin much easier than a hook with the thumb up. Either way, it works for me.

 

[Connoisseur]

Interesting, because I've never experienced wrist pain from throwing the hook to the head w/ the thumb up.

I'd be interested to try with the palm down though, esp like you said, when you slip their right and come over the top with the left hook.

 

[Ckwilas]

Awesome, I've done Shorin-ryu my whole life, and used to compete regularly in aau tournaments. The problem with AAU though is they're way too strict on technique, as in hooks aren't allowed cuz they're "not proper karate techniques". When I transitioned to open tournaments, I found that not only did I not know how to perform a proper hook, but I had also developed a strange tunnel vision since I wasn't use to attacks coming from anywhere but straight ahead (and lets face it, nobody in AAU karate can kick worth a damn to mix things up). Honestly though, I found that if you rotate your hips and step out slightly as you punch, your hook turns into a straight plus a shitload of power from the hip rotation, so I found hooks to be kinda unnecessary. But if you must, then just make sure to get the full hip rotation and not to overextend.

AAU tournaments....ahh the frustrations I would have sometimes with how strict they were.

Thanks for the replies and everybody's input. I am feeling much more comfortable with my hooks but I feel the best right now with the 45 degree hook with the fist. Feels right for me, but once I get the solid mechanics for the punch and movement, I will try both ways. Or perhaps, just stick with the angled wrist.

 

[jamiesda]

HERE"S YOUR ANSWER

when hooking to the face in MT palm down is definatly the way to go for a few reasons the biggest is if u get used to throwing thumb up hooks u get tired or sloppy ur gonna start slapping or just doing arm punches which doesnt hurt and fucks ur wrist up its impossible to slap with ur palm down also for most people palm down hooks require u to roll your shoulder in a little bit more which keeps it closer to ur chin = more protection and in regards to it being uncomfortable just takes time man keep throwing them and they'll come. biggest advice is PICK ONE and practice it over and over if u keep switching youll never get any of them right.

hope this helps

see: paul daley vs scott smith

 

[DJMilesStyles**]

I throw both ways while working the bag, but thumb up gets more power and is faster imo.

With Palm down, your main connection will be the pinky and ring finger knuckles, the weakest.

 

[barnowl]

The difference between thumb up (condit) and palm down (hardy):

That is not thumb up vs thumb down, that is hitting with Knuckles vs. hitting with your thumb. You can see that in the clip.

 

[SeoulTiger]

I've always been taught thumb up for hooks to the body, thumb towards you for hooks to the chin. I like the feels of thumb up for both because thumb towards you feels so unnatural. But for me, as usually the shorter fighter, throwing hooks to the chin with the thumb up leaves my wrist at an awkward angle when I make impact and I often hurt my wrist doing it. Forcing myself to throw hooks to the chin with the thumb towards me results in my knuckles, wrist and elbow being in a nice, strong, straight line at impact.

HERE"S YOUR ANSWER

when hooking to the face in MT palm down is definatly the way to go for a few reasons the biggest is if u get used to throwing thumb up hooks u get tired or sloppy ur gonna start slapping or just doing arm punches which doesnt hurt and fucks ur wrist up its impossible to slap with ur palm down also for most people palm down hooks require u to roll your shoulder in a little bit more which keeps it closer to ur chin = more protection

Combine these two and you have your answer. Palms down keeps the wrist, forearms, arm and shoulder all in proper alignment leading to a more reinforced punch. Guys who don't turn their hook over tend to develop the habit of slapping with the hook, which generates less force and is more strenuous on the wrist and forearm.

 

[JohnathanWF**]

I instinctively do palm-facing-me, but it seems palm-down might be better for up-close-and-personal.

It's also how Hendo throws his bombs, so take from that what you will.

 

[peestreaks]

pivot your lead foot in the direction of your punch, follow by turning your body, with your wrists, elbow and shoulders on the same level and follow through.
and as for the thumbs debate. i was always taught thumbs down. wrists are turned for more power and all that jazz.

 

[Bob Lennon]

Some good pointers here:
Mastering The Left Hook

Personally I throw close range power hooks in a vertical fist.
For long hooks and pivoting hooks, I throw it with a horizontal fist.
I also throw hooks to the body in a vertical fist and a bit diagonal for shovel hooks.

 

[Ckwilas]

Great links and info everybody! I just been religiously pounding the bag with my left hook. Repitition is only way to go. I am getting much more comfortable with lead hook and still throwing it with fist at 45 degree angle. I'm sure that is considered a little sloppy but I just worked on getting comfortable with my front foot pivot and driving my hips. I been training hard in MT for about a month now and I have been focusing on my boxing the best I can. Only other issue I have gotten much better at is I am getting rid of my old school point fighting stance and keeping my guard up.

I know this is very limited, but in regards to my right hook, I only really am comfortable throwing it to the body when I get a good slip in and I throw that with vertical fist. I know I need a lot more work, but it's a start and I greatly appreciate the replies. Got to start from somewhere, right? lol

 

[ssullivan80]

hook makes contact with thumb up, then hand rolls over through impact into follow through, thus your looking right over the point of your left elbow (lead hook) where the hook made contact........

Sometimes guys turn the hook over early (lands palm down) or late (follows through thumb up) and it lands accordingly. Really, what is important is not so much the hand placement (Palm down vs. thumb up), the hook is made effective more by hip and shoulder rotation, the hip leads, shoulders follow, glove lands last.... in short: turn hip through opponents centerline (pivot), rotate shoulders through, stick a glove out their and aim middle knuckle for chin/jawline/ribs/etc....... and once contact is made, pull hook back into your body and reset your base (turning hips/shoulders back to stance). Do all the above mentioned steps correctly, it really does not matter if you land palm down or thumb up....... mofo still gets cracked!

 

[ssullivan80]

That is not thumb up vs thumb down, that is hitting with Knuckles vs. hitting with your thumb. You can see that in the clip.

agreed.... had Hardy not pulled back, it would have been a different scenario most likely.... That said, had he not turned that hand over he would of got knuckles on the chin and likely would of done more damage. Why it is so important to throw a shot to where your opponent is going, not where he is at.... that was the difference, Hardy threw his hook behind the right Condit came under, and Hardy started to throw it short, then had to reach as Condit pulled back, hence the hand turned over (threw it where he was at, had to adjust mid hook), Condit threw his in anticipation of Hardy's hook by coming forward under his right and throwing it shorter pulling back.... Hardy moved right into that hook (Condit threw it where he was going).

Watch the other Gif that Connoisseur posted of Hardy catching Farber, that was the same hook he was trying to hit Condit with, almost identical situation..... Difference was, Farber dropped down farther and didnt pull back as far. Condit didnt drop as far down and sort of slip/ducked the shot...... then came up and narrowed his hips and pulled back into the hook........ Hardy was looking for the same shot both instances, look closely. Difference was Condit anticipated it and pulled out farther into his left hook, got inside Hardy's, who threw it anticipating to land it shorter, then had to reach for it.... why the palm turned down.

SO LESSON TO BE LEARNED, A SHORT 1-2 IS MUCH EASIER TO RECOVER AND COUNTER FROM THAN A LOOPING OVERHAND. CONDIT AND FARBER GIF'S BELOW ARE A PERFECT EXAMPLE........... SAME RIGHT HAND MISS, SAME HARDY COUNTERS, DIFFERENT RESULTS!

 

[Lionidas]

The difference between thumb up (condit) and palm down (hardy):

I love that gif.

 

[Zisteau]

Can someone sticky one of these threads? I swear they come up once a week on clockwork.

The difference between thumb up (condit) and palm down (hardy):

That exchange had nothing to do with who had their palms up or down. It had to do with accuracy. One hit on the jaw, the other deflected off the side of the neck.