The Hook Debate: Palm in or Palm down? (17 threads mashed together, have fun)

[ssullivan80]

Every example you gave was a boxer, like I said in boxing and k1 throw it vertically. Muay Thai is not boxing.

So in short, you feel the reason a vertical fist hook is better is because it is easier to follow with an elbow? Personally, i would rather throw a solid hook when i want to throw a punch, and if i want to throw an elbow..... well, i throw an elbow with the intent of elbowing the guy. Why through a less powerful, less effective, easier to counter, more likely to bust a wrist, half ass hook only to have the advantage of possibly landing a half ass elbow behind it?

Muay Thai may not be boxing, but in Muay Thai, from my experience....... we throw punches. Boxing or MT is negligible, a properly thrown punch is a properly thrown punch. Boxers just tend to do it a little better, in my opinion!

Rumor has it these guys are pretty good at Muay Thai, or MMA?

 

[Oblivian]

If your going to throw an elbow, just throw an elbow, not a hook with a back-up plan!

If your going to throw a hook, throw a hook, and i don't care who tells you that a horizontal fist is the correct way to throw a hook, it is absolutely not. An overhand lead left may be used with a vertical fist, but a hook is thrown by pivoting, rotating the shoulders and lifting the elbow (thumb up) as you deliver the hook. The fist may turn vertical on the follow through, but at impact, thumb up!

The primary reason for this (and there are several others), a vertical fist allows you to tuck your chin into your lead shoulder and protect it from getting hit. A vertical fist also keeps the punch (your elbow really) tighter to your body, which puts more mass behind the punch. A vertical fist hook also gives you better range control, allowing you to extend or retract the hook mid-swing more effectively. Lastly, if you miss with a horizontal fist, your much easier to counter. A vertical fist hook allows you, just at/after impact to pull the hook (rolling the wrist like you would arm wrestling) back in towards your sternum, with the point of your elbow aimed right at the opponents chest. This is how you snap a hook through the target without, lunging or swinging wildly. If thrown across the chin correctly, it creates the whipping effect, causing your opponents head snap back n forth = night night!

Really good post. I'm a newb in regards to striking, but the bolded is exactly what I was thinking. In anything strength training related, it's almost always better to have elbows close to the body (bench press, deadlift, etc.). Having the fist horizontal would throw your elbow far away from your body. It just feels like it would be much weaker.

It seems like the arguments for a horizontal fist would be outweighed by all of the benefits of a vertical fist.

 

[Linkuei]

its not like its only one answer to this question..

Thats exactly what I was thinking...

 

[ssullivan80]

its not like its only one answer to this question..

Thats exactly what I was thinking...

Actually, on this topic i would argue that. There are alternating ways to use many different techniques with CONSISTENT effective results. That said, i challenge you to name 1 elite pro fighter who consistently did damage throwing a vertical fist hook? The key word being CONSISTENTLY, i know someone will post a vid or pic of Wilson Goevia throwing that vertical fist hook against Lambert......... which may i add, attempting the same hook got him smacked by both Nate Marquart and Belcher.

 

[mr viagra]

If your going to throw an elbow, just throw an elbow, not a hook with a back-up plan!

If your going to throw a hook, throw a hook, and i don't care who tells you that a horizontal fist is the correct way to throw a hook, it is absolutely not. An overhand lead left may be used with a vertical fist, but a hook is thrown by pivoting, rotating the shoulders and lifting the elbow (thumb up) as you deliver the hook. The fist may turn vertical on the follow through, but at impact, thumb up!

The primary reason for this (and there are several others), a vertical fist allows you to tuck your chin into your lead shoulder and protect it from getting hit. A vertical fist also keeps the punch (your elbow really) tighter to your body, which puts more mass behind the punch. A vertical fist hook also gives you better range control, allowing you to extend or retract the hook mid-swing more effectively. Lastly, if you miss with a horizontal fist, your much easier to counter. A vertical fist hook allows you, just at/after impact to pull the hook (rolling the wrist like you would arm wrestling) back in towards your sternum, with the point of your elbow aimed right at the opponents chest. This is how you snap a hook through the target without, lunging or swinging wildly. If thrown across the chin correctly, it creates the whipping effect, causing your opponents head snap back n forth = night night!

See below, rumor has it these guys had pretty good hooks.

great post and great pictorial evidence to back it up, thanks! the arm wrestling comparison is great, makes perfect sense in regards to following through and not losing your balance.

 

[AXelator]

punch. Boxers just tend to do it a little better, in my opinion!

Rumor has it these guys are pretty good at Muay Thai, or MMA?

The thai fighters both have there fists pretty much horizontal.... Are you saying I'm right now?

 

[ohernand]

If your going to throw an elbow, just throw an elbow, not a hook with a back-up plan!

If your going to throw a hook, throw a hook, and i don't care who tells you that a horizontal fist is the correct way to throw a hook, it is absolutely not. An overhand lead left may be used with a vertical fist, but a hook is thrown by pivoting, rotating the shoulders and lifting the elbow (thumb up) as you deliver the hook. The fist may turn vertical on the follow through, but at impact, thumb up!

The primary reason for this (and there are several others), a vertical fist allows you to tuck your chin into your lead shoulder and protect it from getting hit. A vertical fist also keeps the punch (your elbow really) tighter to your body, which puts more mass behind the punch. A vertical fist hook also gives you better range control, allowing you to extend or retract the hook mid-swing more effectively. Lastly, if you miss with a horizontal fist, your much easier to counter. A vertical fist hook allows you, just at/after impact to pull the hook (rolling the wrist like you would arm wrestling) back in towards your sternum, with the point of your elbow aimed right at the opponents chest. This is how you snap a hook through the target without, lunging or swinging wildly. If thrown across the chin correctly, it creates the whipping effect, causing your opponents head snap back n forth = night night!

See below, rumor has it these guys had pretty good hooks.

thank you very much sir!! this is the type of info i was looking for, a reasoning backed up with detail and proof. i know it's more of what i'm comfortable with, i personally throw it vertically even doing muay thai, but i really wasn't certain what was more correct. also just recently young mexican boxer saul alvarez kod someone with a vertical hook, but thanks to everyone for pitching in their 2 cents

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

The thai fighters both have there fists pretty much horizontal.... Are you saying I'm right now?

uh they do?:icon_neut

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

So in short, you feel the reason a vertical fist hook is better is because it is easier to follow with an elbow? Personally, i would rather throw a solid hook when i want to throw a punch, and if i want to throw an elbow..... well, i throw an elbow with the intent of elbowing the guy. Why through a less powerful, less effective, easier to counter, more likely to bust a wrist, half ass hook only to have the advantage of possibly landing a half ass elbow behind it?

DNG DING DING! U WIN DA PRIZE!

 

[Pro Killer]

Looked like the Thai fighters fists were horizontal to me too and I think you quoted the wrong place legs, You've quoted vertical fist better to follow with an elbow when clearly its horizontal. Being a vertical man myself that elbow thing is the only benefit I see from throwing it horizontally so better change it for our parrallel friends.

 

[ssullivan80]

Looked like the Thai fighters fists were horizontal to me too and I think you quoted the wrong place legs, You've quoted vertical fist better to follow with an elbow when clearly its horizontal. Being a vertical man myself that elbow thing is the only benefit I see from throwing it horizontally so better change it for our parrallel friends.

Horizontal: -------------- as in thumb being pointed either towards the guy swinging the punch or downward.

Vertical: as in thumb being pointed north or up.
l
l
l
l
l

Neither of those thai fighters where throwing horizontal hooks. On the first pic you can clearly see the underside of his forearm....... i.E: vertical

On the second pick of Buakaw, his thumb is pointed up (north) and you can see the palm side of his glove. I.E: Vertical

As for Legs quote, i was not saying vertical is better, i was implying by using questions (being a bit of a smart-ass) that it is foolish to throw a half ass hook when the only advantage may be the possibility of landing a half ass elbow behind it. In short, if your going to throw a hook, use a vertical fist. If your going to elbow, throw an elbow........ not a hook that may or may not turn to an elbow.

 

[AXelator]

Horizontal: -------------- as in thumb being pointed either towards the guy swinging the punch or downward.

Vertical: as in thumb being pointed north or up.
l
l
l
l
l

Neither of those thai fighters where throwing horizontal hooks. On the first pic you can clearly see the underside of his forearm....... i.E: vertical

On the second pick of Buakaw, his thumb is pointed up (north) and you can see the palm side of his glove. I.E: Vertical

As for Legs quote, i was not saying vertical is better, i was implying by using questions (being a bit of a smart-ass) that it is foolish to throw a half ass hook when the only advantage may be the possibility of landing a half ass elbow behind it. In short, if your going to throw a hook, use a vertical fist. If your going to elbow, throw an elbow........ not a hook that may or may not turn to an elbow.

I'll give you on the Buakaw shot his fist is somewhere between vertical and horizontal but the yod one he clearly had it horizontal. You can see the underside of the forearm ebcause theyre fighting in an elevated ring and the photos are taken at an upwards angle.

Anyway I'm not going to post on this anymore, it's clear what I think. I use vertical for hooks to the body and in k1 but in Muay thai I was taught to throw horizontally to the head so that's what i'll do. It feels good for me either way.
I'll

 

[WAREAGLE]

I have had 4 different boxing coaches, 2 thought the only viable way to hook was with the thumb pointed up, 1 thought that the palm had to face down, and the 4th one said it was preference.

If you watch enough boxing you will see he horizonal hook dropping people just like the vertical hook.
Freddie Roach advocates he palm down (horizontal) hook.
I have seen Pacman throw the hook with the palm down.
Mark Hatmaker teaches the thumbs down hook.

As far as alignment goes the last 3 knuckles actually put the hand in alignment with the ulnar bone of the forearm, so a case can be made that the first two knuckles serve as a poor sriking surface.

My personal formula is: long range I throw with the thumb up
tight with palm down
shovel hook with thumb up

Some guy like certain things better, some guys break their hand when hey try it a certain way....efficiency is anything that scores.

 

[Steakeater**]

For me

Start vertical, end horizontal

I was taught the way Masato uses it

Although pictures never do justice, because nobody hooks identical every time.
Some people can throw the entire hook horizontal

THe way Mosley throws it, he can do both vertical and horizontal.

 

[ssullivan80]

For me

Start vertical, end horizontal

I was taught the way Masato uses it

I have had 4 different boxing coaches, 2 thought the only viable way to hook was with the thumb pointed up, 1 thought that the palm had to face down, and the 4th one said it was preference.

If you watch enough boxing you will see he horizonal hook dropping people just like the vertical hook.
Freddie Roach advocates he palm down (horizontal) hook.
I have seen Pacman throw the hook with the palm down.
Mark Hatmaker teaches the thumbs down hook.

As far as alignment goes the last 3 knuckles actually put the hand in alignment with the ulnar bone of the forearm, so a case can be made that the first two knuckles serve as a poor sriking surface.

My personal formula is: long range I throw with the thumb up
tight with palm down
shovel hook with thumb up

Some guy like certain things better, some guys break their hand when hey try it a certain way....efficiency is anything that scores.

I do agree, the follow through is equally effective turning the hook over. When i am advocating vertical fist, i am implying that the hook start's with a vertical fist through the pivot and shoulder turn (lets your hip and shoulder get out in front of your fist, in order to whip/pull it through). It also should make contact with a vertical fist initially and through contact-follow through the fist turns, or hand rolls over. If this is a definition of a horizontal hook, then i wouldn't be arguing that it is poor technique. My issue is with turning the fist horizontal mid swing before contact, that is not how you throw a hook and i have never seen it taught that way in a boxing gym, in Thailand or in Europe/Holland. Now turning the fist horizontal through contact-follow through i have seen taught many times. I personally prefer to keep it vertical through the whole punch, but i don't think turning it over through contact is bad form at all, just preference. The pics you posted are not horizontal fist hooks, they just turned them over through contact, but they began the swing and initial contact thumb upwards, then turned them over.

Freddie Roach didnt teach a vertical fist hook, he taught turning the hook over through contact, but initial contact is made with the thumb up. He used a speed-bag to demonstrate this on one of his title boxing vids. Where the turning over of the hand through contact brought the elbow up and pinned the speed bag through the follow through vs. it clanging back n forth. I will try to find a youtube clip.

Here ya go: watch at about the 3-4 min mark. Freddie talks about turning the hook over on the follow through, but he swings and make first contact with the fist thumb upward then turn it over to follow through.

YouTube - Speedbag - boxing training tips

 

[dzl25]

i was taught horizontal in close to my opponent rotating to thumbs up the further away my target is...so i agree with eagle...

 

[WAREAGLE]

I do agree, the follow through is equally effective turning the hook over. When i am advocating vertical fist, i am implying that the hook start's with a vertical fist through the pivot and shoulder turn (lets your hip and shoulder get out in front of your fist, in order to whip/pull it through). It also should make contact with a vertical fist initially and through contact-follow through the fist turns, or hand rolls over. If this is a definition of a horizontal hook, then i wouldn't be arguing that it is poor technique. My issue is with turning the fist horizontal mid swing before contact, that is not how you throw a hook and i have never seen it taught that way in a boxing gym, in Thailand or in Europe/Holland. Now turning the fist horizontal through contact-follow through i have seen taught many times. I personally prefer to keep it vertical through the whole punch, but i don't think turning it over through contact is bad form at all, just preference. The pics you posted are not horizontal fist hooks, they just turned them over through contact, but they began the swing and initial contact thumb upwards, then turned them over.

Freddie Roach didnt teach a vertical fist hook, he taught turning the hook over through contact, but initial contact is made with the thumb up. He used a speed-bag to demonstrate this on one of his title boxing vids. Where the turning over of the hand through contact brought the elbow up and pinned the speed bag through the follow through vs. it clanging back n forth. I will try to find a youtube clip.

Here ya go: watch at about the 3-4 min mark. Freddie talks about turning the hook over on the follow through, but he swings and make first contact with the fist thumb upward then turn it over to follow through.

YouTube - Speedbag - boxing training tips

It sounds to me like your advocating the left hook making a motion similar to a cutting blow? Is this what your saying?

I am NOT implying that with a palms down hook you simply raise the elbow and drop the hand into the opponents face. The technique that I employ involves a full shoulder,hip and foot rotation before my hand even moves. I get a full pivot and rotation in my palms down hook, it is intiatedwith my hip and shoulder.

And I am having ahard time seeing what your saying with the Freddy Roach video. It looks to me like the palm is down the entire time. I'll keep watching it though.

I was originally taught the thumbs up hook but then i saw many sparring partners were landing left hooks with the palm down hook, when I started using it in sparring, it opened up my boxing game a good bit more.

Here it is Freddy Roach teaching the left hook, he emphasizes the palm being down. Says it creates better follow through and he even says "If a good hook misses an elbow lands." The left hook is covered at about the 2:00 mark.

YouTube - Heavybag - tips and technique

Not trying to be argumentative, Im sure you have a good bit more experience than me but I think a strong case can be made for the palms down hook.

 

[Fear]

When i did boxing we were taughgt to hit at a 45 degree angle which felt pretty comfortable to me
in Muay thai its been taught horizontal which does feel a little awkward but i got used to it
I just listen to the trainer im sure hes alot wiser than me

 

[WAREAGLE]

Perhaps the palms down hook is used to develop a strong follow through habit early on, and then fighters focus more on the thumbs up hook. But I still think it is preference.

 

[ssullivan80]

It sounds to me like your advocating the left hook making a motion similar to a cutting blow? Is this what your saying?

I am NOT implying that with a palms down hook you simply raise the elbow and drop the hand into the opponents face. The technique that I employ involves a full shoulder,hip and foot rotation before my hand even moves. I get a full pivot and rotation in my palms down hook, it is intiatedwith my hip and shoulder.

And I am having ahard time seeing what your saying with the Freddy Roach video. It looks to me like the palm is down the entire time. I'll keep watching it though.

I was originally taught the thumbs up hook but then i saw many sparring partners were landing left hooks with the palm down hook, when I started using it in sparring, it opened up my boxing game a good bit more.

Here it is Freddy Roach teaching the left hook, he emphasizes the palm being down. Says it creates better follow through and he even says "If a good hook misses an elbow lands." The left hook is covered at about the 2:00 mark.

YouTube - Heavybag - tips and technique

Not trying to be argumentative, Im sure you have a good bit more experience than me but I think a strong case can be made for the palms down hook.

Actually, i apologize, i stand corrected..... i watched that video and he is definitely teaching palm down into contact from what i can see. I guess being taller, i would consider that an overhand left hook. I was always taught to throw a hook at my shoulder height, rotating the shoulders and the bent arm on the same plane..... forearm, elbow, shoulders all level rotating through. When that wrist rolls over to horizontal the elbow always comes up higher than the shoulder, almost punching down...... so i interpret that as an overhand left, not a hook.

Russ Amber teaches a similar technique (see video below), even more drastic with the palm down. It still would appear to me that initial contact would be made with a more vertical fist and through the rotation (across the chin), the hand would roll over. But if you watch Russ he is adamant about the body leading and not coming across the centerline. My opinion has always been that if you turn the hand over to early to horizontal, it gets out in front of my body....... I just see the way he is teaching this as a recipe for breaking a wrist, maybe i just have some flimsy wrists? In addition this hook would be far more difficult (in my opinion) to keep the body out front of the hook and keep your defense tight in a kickboxing stance, vs. the wider base of a boxer.

nonetheless, i think we may have been arguing over a different interpretation of the technique.......... hook vs. overhand. Neither of us wrong, just misunderstanding the application of the technique we were describing.


YouTube - Boxing left hook training