The greatest nation on earth

[AGGAMEMNON66]

^ What do you mean "waiting for Russia", the US was racing the USSR to Berlin and they lost.

I'm too lazy to get a better link:

The Soviet advance and ultimate capture of the German capital was virtually unopposed by their allies. In an effort to avoid a diplomatic issue, Allied General of the Army Dwight Eisenhower had ordered his forces into the south of Germany to cut off and wipe out other pieces of the Wehrmacht and to avoid the possibility that the Nazi government would attempt to hold out in a National Redoubt in the Alps. The failure of Operation Market Garden in late 1944 may have played a key role in this decision however.

The decision to leave eastern Germany and the city of Berlin to the Red Army eventually had serious repercussions as the Cold War emerged and expanded in the post-war era, but in doing so, the western Allies were also honoring agreements they made with the Soviet Union at Yalta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_Berlin

And numbers wise, in terms of casualties inflicted to the Axis powers on the Western and Eastern fronts, its not even comparable.

And comparing the Russian losses to American and UK losses isn't comparable either. Look, Germany's poor decisions strategically in invading Russia beat them as much as the Russian army did. The Geramans were dominating the Russians until their supply lines got stretched out because they went too far too fast into Russian territory to continue fueling ther shit and supplying their men.


^And again, keep in mind America was also fighting in the Pacific and putting the smack down as well

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

the US was racing the USSR to Berlin and they lost

lol, Bullshit. We weren't racing anyone in that war. Patton was pissed off several times after gaining ground and having to take a back seat to the red coats and Monty (for example)

Alot of the shit in the Western front got real political and the US voluntarily took a back seat because that front wasn't viewed as 'our war'. We got shit done in the pacific without too much crap because the japanese attacked us and fucked some of our shit up.

 

[Err]

That link says that Churchill, Montgomery, and Patton all urged Eisenhower to attack Berlin, but he didn't because the projected casualties were too high. And this isn't a matter of who lost more men on the Allied side, its who eliminated more from the Axis. You're acting like the poor decisions and misfortunes incurred by the German army somehow detracts from the importance of the Soviet role. At the end of the day it was Soviet hands on Soviet rifles that beat them back.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

That link says that Churchill, Montgomery, and Patton all urged Eisenhower to attack Berlin, but he didn't because the projected casualties were too high. And this isn't a matter of who lost more men on the Allied side, its who eliminated more from the Axis. You're acting like the poor decisions and misfortunes incurred by the German army somehow detracts from the importance of the Soviet role. At the end of the day it was Soviet hands on Soviet rifles that beat them back.

Only on their front. And again, the Germans weren't the only ones fighting for the Axis.

And yeah, I will bring in the fact that poor german decision making cost them its afucking fact that can't be denied - especially when credit is being given to the Soviets in this discussion to the point that you would think by whats being said the Soviets just fucking dominated the Germans from start to finish, its really not even close to that simple.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

That link says that Churchill, Montgomery, and Patton all urged Eisenhower to attack Berlin, but he didn't because the projected casualties were too high.

Well, thats one of the reasons he gave lol

Stalin later accused the allies of stalling forcing the Russians to suffer more casualties and take the bruint of the Germans

There is so much on the side of politics when you get into the western front.. its worth its own thread. But the bottom line is, the southern Allied forces (I'll just call them that) could have invaded Germany earlier than the Russians had they wanted to.

 

[Err]

Yes, but their front was the largest, most bloody, and decisive front of the entire war (In the European theater). At one point 80% of the German forces in Europe were in the East.

 

[Err]

They could have, but had the Soviets not been fighting the Germans, then the Western Allies would've had to contend with nearly 4 million extra German soldiers. Imagine 4 million more German soldiers in France during the D-Day operation.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

In the beginning of the war, US was fiercely isolationist. The US basically waited for all the major players in the Euro theater to punch themselves out, then came in and finished off the scraps.

They dominated the Pacific Theater though.

 

[xcvbn]

The United States has extremely severe societal issues, namely excessive drug use and mass murders of random, innocent people.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

They could have, but had the Soviets not been fighting the Germans, then the Western Allies would've had to contend with nearly 4 million extra German soldiers. Imagine 4 million more German soldiers in France during the D-Day operation.

I never said the Allies win if the Germans don't invade Russia. I stated that the Germans made a strategical error in invading Russia in the 1st place, but that strategical error has absolutely nothing at all to do with the poorly equiped Russian army that they were going to have to fight. They beat the absolute fuck out of Russia until they got stalled by weather conditions and stretched supply lines. Invading Russia has historically been a logistical nightmare.

All of that said, I personally believe that we're all speaking German if the Germans never invade Russia and the US doesn't get invlolved militarily when they do. Its a combination of things that won this war. Its the level of importance you place on those things while understanding the details of those things that count in this discussion.

In the beginning of the war, US was fiercely isolationist. The US basically waited for all the major players in the Euro theater to punch themselves out, then came in and finished off the scraps.

They dominated the Pacific Theater though.

This is a short sighted jab at hyperbole at best, if what you say is true, the people we Allied with were more so punched out than the aggressors. Also don't underestimate the importance of being hardened to war as the European soldiers -especially the Germans- would have been at that point to entering into a war completely green as the American soldiers did either. The battles that took place in the skys are a great example of why something like this is so important -a fighter pilot that has seen years of combat and has been aced a dozen times over is going to jerk off while pulling the trigger that fires the machine guns bolted to his plane wings every time he winds up against a rookie that hasn't seen shit.

 

[Err]

Ok, you've established that the Germans clearly made the wrong decision in attacking the USSR, and that the Soviets were ill equipped. Will you agree that the Soviets fought a considerably larger percentage of the German/Axis forces in the European theater of war by a margin of around 60%-80% depending on the year? And in doing so that they essentially played a larger role in the EUROPEAN theater of war?

 

[weed]

everyone on the planet knows that the US is p4p the greatest nation that is & ever will be.

you all know this, deep down inside. embrace it.

 

[m0353]

How has Isla Island not mentioned?
Greatest nation on Earth by far

 

[Judoxing]

Part of it is an inherent ethnocentrism present in all human beings. Another piece is that American politicians are very pressed to look and act patriotic, I mean, there was a scandal a few years back because Obama wasn't wearing his flag pin 24/7. In the end, I don't think it matters if they say we're the best or think we're the best, I don't think there is a "best nation."

 

[ProBoxingInsidr]

people on these boards bashing america outnumber those saying how great it is 10-1. it seems more like "you" problem than a "we" problem

 

[bcordova]

The US just sucks less than all the other countries. Again though, we can beat you up.

 

[BoomStronk]

Apparently, all US politicians, left or right, are unable to conclude a speech or political discussion of major relevance without referring to the US as "the greatest nation on earth". The omnipresence of this notion is stunning. Leaving out the superlative (and only speaking of a great nation or a nation to be proud of or a particularly great nation etc) seems to be suspect, its outright denial would probably not only end a political career but trigger a myriad of hate mail.

As I am not American I am genuinely interested: What is this claim based upon.

Interesting thread. Mayberry needs more of this kinda stuff.

The appeals toward membership in "the greatest nation on earth" made by politicians, which you have described are in the same realm as are the claims by American politicians to a faith in a creator of some kind. Failure to engage on these terms has been said to cause certain electoral defeat in American politics.

Both of these themes speak to the greater issue of democracy: that the electorate is, in the main, a group of ignorant, agoraphobic racists who view the world in inflexible, black-and-white terms based soundly on fear and prejudice.

Additionally, the American cultural insistence on superiority is a result of its formation as a resistance to British colonial rule, its "victory" in the cold war over communism, and, related to the latter point, its position as the first nation to land on the moon, which was, as Niel Armstrong said, "a giant leap for mankind." - telling that this event of supposed-pan-human significance was associated with the planting of an American flag.

Furthermore, the position of top dog amongst nations on earth economically, politically and culturally, which America has long inhabited, comes with some attendant nastiness, as programs like free trade and immigration regulation make life very difficult for those outside the American gate. In order to ameliorate the destruction and pain caused by the "freedoms" Americans are so excited to talk about, a myth of superlative ascendancy need be fostered. It's one thing to have an historically-informed, subjective understanding of how America came to its position as world leader, but to do so threatens to undermine some of the tenets upon which this "greatness" is built. Like Nike sweatshops, environmental destruction, ethnocide and the like.

 

[new_mexico1]

Came to post this. Leaving satisfied.

I randomly saw one episode of this show and I am super excited to start watching it from the beginning. It is incredibly well done.

It's actually a horrible show.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

This is a short sighted jab at hyperbole at best, if what you say is true, the people we Allied with were more so punched out than the aggressors.

Well I think everyone was punched out but the quagmire the Germans had created in Stalingrad was pretty much the nail in the cross for them. The US and Canada coming in in 1944 were fresh fighters meant to finish them off.

Also don't underestimate the importance of being hardened to war as the European soldiers -especially the Germans- would have been at that point to entering into a war completely green as the American soldiers did either. The battles that took place in the skys are a great example of why something like this is so important -a fighter pilot that has seen years of combat and has been aced a dozen times over is going to jerk off while pulling the trigger that fires the machine guns bolted to his plane wings every time he winds up against a rookie that hasn't seen shit.

Yeah there were veteran soldiers but even they can only be effective so long before PTSD/shell shock sets in. Thats why generals always want fresh troops even if they are a little green sometimes over troops who are experienced but close to the breaking point.

 

[Linkuei]

Because America saved the world in WWII.

Without us we'd all be speaking German and at least half the planet would just be blue-eyed, blonde-haired assholes.

As payment, the rest of the world has to kiss our asses for at least another century.

Pretty sure when the Nazi tried to envade Russia during their winters had something to do with it too.