Opinion The Great WR Debate: are you far-right or far-left?

[Jack V Savage]

"It is helpful to consider the idea of reform versus revolution; a liberal believes that the system is overall redeemable if it is reformed through laws and social change, while a leftist believes that the system itself is the problem and only a revolutionary restructuring of that system would truly do any good. This is why the idea of, for example, a $15/hour minimum wage is not a leftist idea; a leftist view would be the idea that waged labor itself is a capitalistic concept with inherent flaws that cannot be accounted for by simply raising the minimum wage.

The United States has a well-documented history of actively suppressing leftist beliefs and raising up capitalist rhetoric, due to the Red Scare brought on by the Cold War. This history has created a culture of anti-communism in the U.S. that does not exist in the same way in other countries, and this is why ideas like single-payer healthcare and affordable higher education are much more accepted in other parts of the world. Some of these ideas are considered radical in the U.S., which vastly decreases the political spectrum that is acceptable in American political discourse. This concept of the acceptable political spectrum is known as the Overton Window, and it can look very different for different cultures. The Overton Window is the reason why “leftist” and “liberal” ideologies are lumped together in the U.S. in the first place; true leftism (i.e., anti-capitalism) is so far outside of the American Overton Window that Americans are hardly ever taught about it except as a fringe set of beliefs."

Disagree strongly with this. The left-right spectrum isn't inherently connected to capitalism at all. It's increasingly common these days to see anti-market rightists (who tend to be very far to the right--think of JD Vance, for example). Support for markets is very much compatible with far-left views. Look at Norway, which has two huge SWFs and three-quarters of non-home wealth that is publicly owned but also very market-friendly policies. The tendency to connect markets with the political spectrum is an artifact of the Cold War, which has been over for decades now.

 

[Texan6533]

Although I don’t buy into labels, I believe in Biblical truth, all people were created equal under God and have equal rights under the law, and traditional / family values would solve most of our societal issues

 

[panem-et-circenses]

I don't care about the OP in that sense. I was more curious to know if you read the article and whether it altered your view of who fits what category aside from me; because based upon it, from what I can see a lot of people you have in the left wing category belong in the liberal box--if such a thing is even rigid enough to use the term "belong".

Left versus liberal (American liberal) isn’t confused in my head. It’s clear where the lines are drawn, for the most part. Some leftists — far-left, imo — would consider someone who believes in using the system to amend the ways of life, like aforementioned social democrats, as being milquetoast capitalists and not even left-wing; yet we know better, and people like Sano/other Nordic model members are leftists, overall. I may not have the names right, though. I tend to think there are other dimensions to the argument, too. Social ones. Like, if you hate gay people but believe in the Nordic model, well, you have to be bumped further away from left. Jingoism, trad values, etc., move further to the center but can be carried away by economic theory, or not. Anyway, writing this on the run so it might not make sense.

 

[Prefect]

A lot of our disagreement is more about the nature of reality and what is moral behavior in this context than political ideology. But I think the kind of unreflective dismissal of data that doesn't fit your gut (which is heavily shaped by GOP media, I think) is itself rightist. A lot of what drives political disagreement is how much weight is given to different claims of knowledge (including in the moral realm). The right puts more emphasis on culture, religion, instinct, and tradition, and the left more on systematic data collection and deduction. Cultural evolution was key to getting us where we were in the 1800s, but liberalism was ley to the growth we've seen since then. Good illustration here on nixtamalization from Scott Alexander's review of The Secret of Our Success:



At many points in human history, if people thought like liberals and asked "why are we wasting our time doing this?" they would end up literally dead for unclear reasons. But ultimately, using liberal techniques paved the way for a level of development that would have seemed unimaginable. I think it's important to keep the rule of Chesterton's Fence in mind, but it's also important to tear the fence down after the question has been answered sometimes.



That's what I'm saying. A lot of rightist libertarians think if we just get rid of gov't, everything is the same except poor people will die/be more desperate, and they won't have to pay taxes. But, in fact, the implication of true anarchy is a form of communism.

Communism is a form of ownership. The government owns everything. Anarchy isn't that. I don't even think you would call it socialism because the fruits would not be distributed to the mass.

 

[Denter]

The fundamental distinction is between a push for equality (in some domain, bounded by culture, history, etc) and quality (in some domain, bounded by culture, history, etc). The reason people think that America is skewed to the right is because it values quality in business, where the winners get rich and the losers go bankrupt. But this is just a part of human life, and does not determine the tenor of the regime as a whole.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Communism is a form of ownership. The government owns everything. Anarchy isn't that.

Not really. If there's no gov't, things are communally owned in some way, which is a form of communism.

 

[Prefect]

Not really. If there's no gov't, things are communally owned in some way, which is a form of communism.

It isn't communal because nothing is distributed. Somalia ain't communist or socialist.

 

[Scerpi]

Lol@Sweden didnt engage in any kind of authoritarianism during COVID. What a bunch of bullsh*t.

"According to the review, there was also a lack of transparency from public health authorities. The number of ICU beds per region was not publicly available and schools often did not inform parents or teachers when students tested positive for the virus.

Then there were efforts to actively squash medical researchers who criticized Sweden's strategy and accused authorities of not being properly prepared.

When researchers voiced their criticisms on social media, in interviews or in scientific papers, they were often reprimanded by their superiors for reasons such as not being allowed to use their university affiliation, even though this is against Sweden's right of Academic Freedom of Speech, according to the review.

Additionally, the PHA also "discredited any critique and national/international scientific evidence" and the authors say the agency "cherry picked" scientific papers that agreed with its viewpoint.

Ultimately, this led to Sweden having worse COVID-19 outcomes than its neighboring Nordic countries.

In late December 2020, Sweden was recording an average of 44 COVID-19 deaths per 1 million people, according to Our World in Data.

By comparison, Denmark was recording 5 deaths per 1 million, Norway was recording 0.5 deaths per 1 million and Finland was recording 0.3 deaths per 1 million, the data shows.

One month earlier, a report from the Swedish Inspectorate of Health and Social Services found half the country's deaths at the time were among nursing home residents.

About one year later in January 2022 -- during the omicron wave -- Sweden was faring better and recording 5 deaths per 1 million.

However, the other three countries were recording half as many deaths with Denmark recording the highest at 2.4 per 1 million, Our World in Data shows."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/scathing-evaluation-swedens-covid-response-reveals-failures-control/story?id=83644832

Not being transparent with the public, actively suppressing any opposing data or viewpoints, real f*ckin Libertarian. Sounds like a lot of informed consent going on.

You're fucking mental... lol

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1111779/coronavirus-death-rate-europe-by-country/

Seriously, take some meds or something. You're sounding like a completely looney lately

This is what I was talking about. The fucking lunatics from the Left and Sweden.

Thanks for proving my point

 

[Denter]

It isn't communal because nothing is distributed. Somalia ain't communist or socialist.

As I'm sure you are aware, there are flavors of anarchism (all crazy) and one of them is voluntary syndicates which distribute goods within the group.

 

[Prefect]

As I'm sure you are aware, there are flavors of anarchism (all crazy) and one of them is voluntary syndicates which distribute goods within the group.

Communalism isn't anarchy.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Communalism isn't anarchy.

Communism is anarchy (or anarchy is communism). If you're not interested in the history of anarchist thought or being right or whatever, that's fine, but there is a long history of it.

 

[Denter]

Communalism isn't anarchy.

Well they would say it is, as the syndicate has no coercive power and is voluntary.

 

[Denter]

Communism is anarchy (or anarchy is communism). If you're not interested in the history of anarchist thought or being right or whatever, that's fine, but there is a long history of it.

Yes this is the final stage of the development of socialism (in theory).

 

[ShadowRun]

Poll options suck

 

[Jack V Savage]

Yes this is the final stage of the development of socialism (in theory).

Some (like Bakunin) thought that it was folly to think that a communist gov't would ever give up power.

Poll options suck

Don't take it too seriously.

 

[Rational Poster]

Not directly, you mean? You still get it filtered, even if you don't read anything but the WR (in fact, only reading the WR would probably give you an even more distorted picture of reality than only watching Fox).

I always find it entertaining those types that think they're so special and above it all, like they've got some secret access to the correct information that no one else does when in reality it's all coming from the same place.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I always find it entertaining those types that think they're so special and above it all, like they've got some secret access to the correct information that no one else does when in reality it's all coming from the same place.

I remember Bill James discussing people who say they don't believe in using stats to evaluate baseball players. On reflection, it turns out that they don't believe in using good stats (or ones that they've put any thought into). Or of course, there's the famous Keynes quote:

The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back. I am sure that the power of vested interests is vastly exaggerated compared with the gradual encroachment of ideas.

 

[sickc0d3r]

It's funny because I've been banned from left wing Facebook groups for pointing out biased reporting from left wing sources. I probably present farther left here than I am irl because the right wing has just gone completely bonkers.

Same here. I make an effort to look at things from all angles, and I hold views that would put me firmly in either camp, which probably just makes me a run of the mill liberal in reality. But I can’t be down with anyone who likes or excuses Trump, straight up. So my posts here since 2016 are skewed by that idiot and his dumbass fans. I voted for Gary Fucking Johnson twice, ffs.

 

[Prefect]

Communism is anarchy (or anarchy is communism). If you're not interested in the history of anarchist thought or being right or whatever, that's fine, but there is a long history of it.

I don't know why you are taking this stance when quick view of the definitions and thought about how the remaining communist countries operate would make it obvious that communism isn't anarchy.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I don't know why you are taking this stance when quick view of the definitions and thought about how the remaining communist countries operate would make it obvious that communism isn't anarchy.

I don't know why I'm wasting time with you, really (and this will be my last response). Obviously I'm not saying that big-C Communist countries are anarchist. Anarchist thinkers have generally been communists, and even Marx thought anarchy was the final stage of communism (when you actually get communism).