The Definitive: Top 5 Heavyweights of All-Time.

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Literally all of the rankings in my post have links.


And how am I suppose to apply this rationale in determining everyone else's ranks for the other candidates in this list? The answer is that I can't, which is why I used something that could be consistent across the board, and while it may not be a perfect methodology, the consistency allows for it to be the most fair option.

I'll entertain one of your examples though; let's look at your claim of Andrei Arlovski being in the top three, worldwide, just prior to the Emelianenko fight.

#1 - Fedor Emelianenko
#2 - Brock Lesnar (UFC Champion); he'd just defeated Randy Couture.
#3 - Frank Mir (Interim UFC Champion); he'd just defeated Antonio Nogueira.

Now why would Arlovski be ranked above Mir or Lesnar? Arlovski's best win after losing the title was Werdum, who was #9 at the time. Randy Couture was the UFC champion, and Lesnar defeated him, so that's a better win than #9 Werdum. Antonio Nogueira was the interim UFC champion, who defeated Sylvia, and Mir defeated Nogueira, which is also a better win than #9 Werdum.

Personally I think I have a pretty strong case, but subjectively trying to decide which fighter was at which rank at a certain point in time is as inconsistent as referencing something like Sherdog's rankings (since they too are subjectively made and have biases), so I simply refer to FightMatrix because at least those are all determined the same exact way, they're consistent.

And for what it's worth, this is how FightMatrix ranked Heavyweight at the time of Fedor and Arlovski's fight:

It sounds to me like whoever placed Arlovski in the top three at that time was biased against the UFC, or just trying to hype up the Affliction fight, which is also why I don't put an ounce of credibility into the UFC's rankings either.

Almost everyone had Arlovski ranked as number 2 when he fought Fedor. There was no anti-UFC bias about it.

 

[lsu480]

Prime Brock would smash anyone on that list if they weren't cheating with steroids

 

[ExitLUPin]

Why did you include Nog's win over Werdum but leave out Werdum's win over Nog?

Werdum was still a top HW when he fought Nog. He was arguably at his gurappling peak and Nog outrolled or stalemated him and dropped him twice. Werdums clinch and combination sturiking was at its best with Cordeiro but his defense didnt really improve much from PRIDE and his mat work certainly didnt tho he was still a beast

Nog was on the verge of retirement, not even close to a top HW, had more surgeries than a Kardashian and barely had a functioning hip.

 

[faustian]

1. Steroid, 2. Steroid, 3. Steroid, 4. Croatia, 5. Steroid yeah they are the best. Let's now all go and hate Jon Jones because he was on steroids too

Yeah this post literally makes zero sense

 

[ExitLUPin]

Couldn't disagree more

Assuming we're talking about prime Nog (literally like 3-4 years before he took the UFC strap) the only bad stylistic matchup I see for him there is JDS. I don't see too many paths to victory for Nog there. But other than that; I think Nog handles Stipe and DC more often than not. Probably outpoints them if they manage to keep it standing; Nog never had heavy hands but he did have effective technical boxing and endless cardio with an indestructible chin, plus the constant threat of going to the mat

Cain is interesting because I personally value peak Cain extremely high and think he's up there with Fedor as the most overwhelming fighters ever, but then again I was surprised to see him jump into Doom's guillotine like that and how helpless he was once he got there. I do think Doom is better at finishing subs than Nog but Nog would still present similar issues for Cain that Doom did, i.e. the threat of potentially neutralizing and even exploiting one of Cain's greatest strengths (wrestling). Cain would have to pull of a masterclass in preemptive sub defense ala Fedor/Nog 1 if he wanted to take it to the ground but his best bet would probably be to grind against the cage. I see that matchup pretty even, perhaps 55/45 to Cain if he fights smart

Cains GNP relies on volume and workrate. It wasnt near as technical or powerful as Fedor. Nogs guard would be incredibly tough for him to deal with and the boxing would provide issues as well. Nog had an underrated clinch game too. He wouldnt batter Cain like Werdum did and nearly finish him in the clinch with knees but he could hold his own. Fight being in a ring VS cage would likely tip it either way but i see more ways for Nog to win

 

[Eater of Souls]

Cain fought in an era/division when no one was really dangerous on the ground. Big Nog fought in an era/division where most of the top 10 had very legit high level submission games. I don't think Cain would have done nearly as well in the HW division in Pride as he did in the UFC's HW division.

I picked Werdum to beat Cain and thought he was a bad match up for Cain since Cain's primary style is to brawl into the clinch and take people down and I thought Werdum had better kickboxing and Cain wouldn't want any part of Werdum on the ground so the threat of the takedown wouldn't really be there for Cain. I was surprised at how many people thought Cain would be able to take Werdum down easily and be in no danger when he's literally never fought anyone dangerous on the ground(not counting landing some finishing GnP shots on Zombie Nog).

Agree. Particularly how much Werdum loves to fight on the ground. When you take him down, he adds you to his Christmas card list.

 

[ExitLUPin]

Cain fought in an era/division when no one was really dangerous on the ground. Big Nog fought in an era/division where most of the top 10 had very legit high level submission games. I don't think Cain would have done nearly as well in the HW division in Pride as he did in the UFC's HW division.

I picked Werdum to beat Cain and thought he was a bad match up for Cain since Cain's primary style is to brawl into the clinch and take people down and I thought Werdum had better kickboxing and Cain wouldn't want any part of Werdum on the ground so the threat of the takedown wouldn't really be there for Cain. I was surprised at how many people thought Cain would be able to take Werdum down easily and be in no danger when he's literally never fought anyone dangerous on the ground(not counting landing some finishing GnP shots on Zombie Nog).

Yeah for all the memes about "evolution" back in PRIDE u had well rounded HWs and submission threats like Fedor, Nog, Werdum, Barnett, Sergei, Reem etc.

Ppl who werent around then have no clue how good peak Sergei was. The shoulder/back injuries fucked his career up but from 03-05 i think i might favor him over any UFC HW in recent times. He was that good and dangerous everywhere. Took a peak Nog in arguably his finest performance to beat him

I think Barnett at his best with his clinch game and sub grappling is a rough fight for Cain too TBH

 

[KID Yamamoto]

I really don't know how people can debate Pride vs UFC back in the day. Pride was obviously the better org.
Guys like Cain and JDS came a little bit too late for them to really be compared to Prime pride guys. Minotaro started his pro career 7 years before Cain's first fight and didn't fight Cain 10 years into his career with a shit load of damage.

 

[ferrisjso]

Criteria:

• Number of top ten opponents at Heavyweight.
• Time spent ranked as a top five fighter in the Heavyweight Division
• Only listing #1-10 Heavyweight ranked opponents in candidates' resumes.

Honorable Mention - Cain Velasquez

Velasquez' resume:

#3 Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
#1 Brock Lesnar
#9 Antonio Silva
#1 Junior dos Santos
#3 Antonio Silva
#2 Junior dos Santos
#8 Travis Browne

Velasquez defeated seven, top ten opponents.
Velasquez was ranked in the top five from 1/1/10 to 1/1/15 and 7/1/15 to 10/1/17 for a combined total of 7 years and 3 months.

The overly redundant resume and the fact that a large portion of the time that Velasquez was ranked in the top five he was inactive due to injury, is why he gets only an honorable mention.

#5 - Fabricio Werdum

Werdum's resume:

#4 Gabriel Gonzaga
#1 Fedor Emelianenko
#5 Travis Browne
#5 Mark Hunt
#1 Cain Velasquez
#8 Travis Browne

Werdum defeated six, top ten opponents.
Werdum was ranked in the top five from 4/1/08 to 10/1/08, 7/1/10 to 10/1/11, 4/1/12 to 1/1/13, 7/1/13 to 4/1/18 for a combined total of 7 years and 3 months.

#4 - Stipe Miocic

Miocic's resume:

#5 Mark Hunt
#3 Andrei Arlovski
#1 Fabricio Werdum
#3 Alistair Overeem
#5 Junior dos Santos
#2 Francis Ngannou
#1 Daniel Cormier

Miocic defeated seven, top ten opponents.
Miocic was ranked in the top five from 4/1/14 to 7/1/14 and 4/1/15 to Today for a combined total of 4 years and 11 months.

#3 - Junior dos Santos

dos Santos' resume:

#4 Fabricio Werdum
#9 Mirko Filipovic
#6 Shane Carwin
#1 Cain Velasquez
#4 Frank Mir
#9 Mark Hunt
#6 Ben Rothwell
#4 Derrick Lewis

dos Santos defeated eight, top ten opponents.
dos Santos was ranked in the top five from 10/1/09 to 4/1/10, 10/1/10 to 1/1/16, 7/1/16 to 1/1/18, and 4/1/19 to Today for a combined total of 7 years and 11 months.

#2 - Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira

Nogueira's resume:

#5 Valentijn Overeem
#5 Gary Goodridge
#3 Mark Coleman
#6 Ricco Rodriguez
#5 Mirko Filipovic
#10 Heath Herring
#9 Fabricio Werdum
#3 Josh Barnett
#9 Tim Sylvia
#5 Randy Couture

Nogueira defeated ten, top ten opponents.
Nogueira was ranked in the top five from 4/1/01 to 1/1/10 for a combined total of 8 years and 9 months.

#1 - Fedor Emelianenko

Emelianenko's resume:

#8 Renato Sobral
#6 Semmy Schilt
#1 Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
#9 Gary Goodridge
#9 Mark Coleman
#7 Kevin Randleman
#2 Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
#4 Mirko Filipovic
#4 Mark Coleman
#7 Mark Hunt
#8 Tim Sylvia
#6 Andrei Arlovski
#8 Brett Rogers

Emelianenko defeated thirteen, top ten opponents.
Emelianenko was ranked in the top five from 4/1/02 to 1/1/11 for a combined total of 8 years and 9 months.

For those who will undoubtedly ask about Daniel Cormier:

Spoiler

Cormier's resume:

#6 Antonio Silva
#8 Josh Barnett
#7 Frank Mir
#1 Stipe Miocic
#5 Derrick Lewis

Cormier defeated five, top ten opponents.
Cormier was ranked in the top five from 7/1/12 to 1/1/14 and 10/1/18 to Today for a combined total of 2 years and 8 months.

Cormier has the least amount of top ten wins and the shortest amount of time spent in the top five rankings out of everyone in this list (including Velasquez).

I agree with 3/5. Regardless HW's the most subjective GOAT list because the benchmarks for HW success are pretty low in terms of defenses, wins etc and all the best HW's of all time have uniquely flawed resumes. There isn't a Jones or someone who's ever derailed a murderers row in HW before.

Fedor's got the streak but the competition was weaker outside of the top 2 guys who struggled in the UFC which was seen as inferior. Started losing the moment he started facing elite competition.

Stipe most UFC defenses, beat Werdum. Lost all but one round to DC even though he won the second fight(despise DC his excuse checks out though).

DC, lost two rounds in his HW career and did better fighting the GOAT at LHW than most people could. His resume is short af though and he did not fight most of the guys mentioned here.

JDS, longest streak at the elite level, has wins against a lot of the top HW's ever even though he has losses too.

Werdum, finished Fedor and Cain at times when they were widely considered the GOAT or one of the GOATS.

Cain, resume brief af, the best opponent he beat KO'd him once.

Barnett, probably best cross promotional resume, took a round from prime DC. Could have dominated the 2000s without being kicked out of the UFC for cheating for all we know.

Cro Cop, arguably beat Fedor, and while he had a rough patch when he came to the UFC, the sport has evolved, he's 45 and he's still winning. Dude's earlier struggles can be chalked up to being a little too reliant on kickboxing but cross era dominance is very rare.

IMO Big Nog can't be the GOAT because he lost all the biggest fights he had(except the Cro Cop win when Cro Cop wasn't as well rounded). He won the Pride title by beating Brock Lesnar's springboard Herring and won the RINGS King of Kings tourney by beating the worse Overeem brother. Lost to Hendo lost to Fedor, lost to Barnett went to the supposedly inferior UFC and lost to post accident Mir. Unlike Cro Cop who had a renaissance Big Nog the best pre Fedor HW in Japan went the way of Wandy.

Really there's just so many fighters you can make the case for depending on what you value ceiling is so low. I think Kongo and Carwin are two of the most lethal fighters I've ever seen who had some bad luck/simply don't have the resume. I think it's like 135 the title of GOAT is really just vacant cause besides the Fedor cult you're not going to get the community to agree on a consensus GOAT(because there isn't one). Stipe's old and if he wins the DC trilogy, the even more old DC's got a built in valid excuse. If DC wins his resume is still very shaky. If the Ngannou hype machine is right, Stipe's got that same excuse cause he won their first fight and the opponents don't exist for Ngannou to build a crazy resume after that.

 

[faustian]

I understand really well, but the caliber of the fighters back then was shit.
More than today.

I mean, no offense, and I know that this is all ultimately subjective, but I don't believe anyone who watched then and now can claim in good faith that the HW talent/performance is at a higher level today. You have Stipe and DC, then a guy in Ngannou who displayed a WMMA-tier skillset in his title fight. You have the ghost of Reem positioned to get another title shot in 2020 when this same guy, without the worry of USADA, was cutting massive weight to not fight at HW in Pride

Yes, Pride's condoning of PEDs obviously plays a role here, but the fact remains that the HWs who built their legacies in Pride were likely fighting vs enhanced opponents. Then there's the fact that Fedor was being routinely WADA tested during his Pride run and Nog's game was always based more on skill than physicality. Not saying they never used but Fedor was automatically at a disadvantage with his routine WADA testing and Nog's game conceivably stood less to benefit from PED use than a more aggressive physical fighter. Regardless it's a moot issue because PEDs were legal and you can only assume the rest of the division were on them in some form

Back to my point, I don't know how anyone can watch the slopfest that is the current UFC HW division and honestly say the talent level is higher than peak Pride. I have to assume anyone who believes this wasn't fortunate enough to have witnessed the Pride era

Here's two random full-fights that I was able to find online, involving 4 Pride HWs ranked anywhere from 2-10 at the time, and tell me with a straight face that you see this level of talent and fight-night performance from the current UFC HW division (keep in mind: 10 min 1st rounds, something that would be laughed at if you proposed it today in a landscape where HWs are lucky to make it past 3 mins while remaining upright)

 

[Mamou]

I'm a big fan of JDS, but there's no way I'm ranking him above Cain. No way. Cain beat years off of that poor dude's life.

JDS has a significantly better resume than Cain

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

JDS: 1-3 in UFC title fights (two of those losses to Cain)
Cain: 3-1 in UFC title fights (two of those wins vs. JDS)

JDS is a great fighter. Cain was just greater and I say this as a guy who rooted hard for JDS three times vs. Cain.

JDS' resume is better, Cain's peak was better, different things.

 

[arcadeperfect]

If you're going to use "old and battle worn" as a criteria then all of Stipe's wins would be disqualified.

As long as someone like Schaub gets 0 credit for beating Cro Cop, I'm good.

 

[arcadeperfect]

If we gonna look purely on the records i belive jds is the best, but he's to much inconsistent so overall i belive stipe is number 1

As long as he's included I'm good. It's amazing how people forget about his record filled with murderers all because Cain beat him.

 

[Mamou]

JDS: 1-3 in UFC title fights (two of those losses to Cain)
Cain: 3-1 in UFC title fights (two of those wins vs. JDS)

JDS is a great fighter. Cain was just greater and I say this as a guy who rooted hard for JDS three times vs. Cain.

Cain is 3-2 in title fights
JDS is 2-3 in title fights

 

[ExitLUPin]

I mean, no offense, and I know that this is all ultimately subjective, but I don't believe anyone who watched then and now can claim in good faith that the HW talent/performance is at a higher level today. You have Stipe and DC, then a guy in Ngannou who displayed a WMMA-tier skillset in his title fight. You have the ghost of Reem positioned to get another title shot in 2020 when this same guy, without the worry of USADA, was cutting massive weight to not fight at HW in Pride

Yes, Pride's condoning of PEDs obviously plays a role here, but the fact remains that the HWs who built their legacies in Pride were likely fighting vs enhanced opponents. Then there's the fact that Fedor was being routinely WADA tested during his Pride run and Nog's game was always based more on skill than physicality. Not saying they never used but Fedor was automatically at a disadvantage with his routine WADA testing and Nog's game conceivably stood less to benefit from PED use than a more aggressive physical fighter. Regardless it's a moot issue because PEDs were legal and you can only assume the rest of the division were on them in some form

Back to my point, I don't know how anyone can watch the slopfest that is the current UFC HW division and honestly say the talent level is higher than peak Pride. I have to assume anyone who believes this wasn't fortunate enough to have witnessed the Pride era

Here's two random full-fights that I was able to find online, involving 4 Pride HWs ranked anywhere from 2-10 at the time, and tell me with a straight face that you see this level of talent and fight-night performance from the current UFC HW division (keep in mind: 10 min 1st rounds, something that would be laughed at if you proposed it today in a landscape where HWs are lucky to make it past 3 mins while remaining upright)

this dude wasnt even close to ranked in PRIDE back then and he nearly kicks Reems head off. The LHW/HW talent pool in PRIDE is still by far the peak in MMA weve seen. Its not even close. A talent like Atajev would run through alot of the current ranked LHW/HW fighters. An early 2000s Gary Goodridge level fighter in Derrick Lewis legitimately fought for a UFC title and was on a massive stureak beating top dudes like Francis and Volkov and yet a 40yo completely washed up, injury plagued Mark Hunto was the only guy to beat him during that span and finished him

U had world champions and GOATs from sports like BJJ, judo, sambo, kickboxing etc. joining MMA, influx of Euro/Asian talent and money being paid for them. Even had strong boxing talent too. Sergei was an injury away from making the Russian Olympic team.

 

[arcadeperfect]

Yup, it's just sad that so many fans buy into the UFC hype machine without doing their research.

To put it into context, Justin Eilers and Paul Buentello were fighting for the heavyweight title in the UFC the same time that Pride had it's legendary roster of heavyweights. Think about that for a minute then come back to me and tell me the UFC had better heavyweights than Pride.

PRIDE had the better fighters period, especially at HW and 205. People seem to disregard that fact because of how poorly Wanderlei and Cro Cop did, even though both were well past their primes by that point.

 

[arcadeperfect]

this dude wasnt even close to ranked in PRIDE back then and he nearly kicks Reems head off. The LHW/HW talent pool in PRIDE is still by far the peak in MMA weve seen. Its not even close.

U had world champions and GOATs from sports like BJJ, judo, sambo, kickboxing etc. joining MMA, influx of Euro/Asian talent and money being paid for them. Even had strong boxing talent too. Sergei was an injury away from making the Russian Olympic team.

I just don't see how anyone can vote against Fedor at #1. The thing to consider and I feel gets overlooked the most is the division. The heavyweight division has always been consistently inconsistent, look at almost any great heavyweight fighter and you will see scattered loses, mostly upsets. So when you consider that Fedor was basically undefeated for 30 plus fights and 10 plus years in the hardest division to be consistent in, he wins by a landslide.

It's because of how his career played out eventually. People only remember him losing to Bader, or a bum like Mitrione. They don't remember, or ever seen the fights when he was in his prime.

 

[arcadeperfect]

JDS: 1-3 in UFC title fights (two of those losses to Cain)
Cain: 3-1 in UFC title fights (two of those wins vs. JDS)

JDS is a great fighter. Cain was just greater and I say this as a guy who rooted hard for JDS three times vs. Cain.

JDS has 2 wins in UFC ttile fights, Cain and Mir. If you look at their records JDS has the better opponents and more importantly, longevity. Cain is a hypothetical that was hyped up by Rogan.

 

[faustian]

this dude wasnt even close to ranked in PRIDE back then and he nearly kicks Reems head off. The LHW/HW talent pool in PRIDE is still by far the peak in MMA weve seen. Its not even close. A talent like Atajev would run through alot of the current ranked LHW/HW fighters. An early 2000s Gary Goodridge level fighter in Derrick Lewis legitimately fought for a UFC title and was on a massive stureak beating top dudes like Francis and Volkov and yet a 40yo completely washed up, injury plagued Mark Hunto was the only guy to beat him during that span and finished him

U had world champions and GOATs from sports like BJJ, judo, sambo, kickboxing etc. joining MMA, influx of Euro/Asian talent and money being paid for them. Even had strong boxing talent too. Sergei was an injury away from making the Russian Olympic team.

Upon rewatching those fights I'm not sure those versions of Aleks and Sergei wouldn't completely outclass Stipe, let alone what Nog would do

Granted, the PED factor, but the skill level was entirely on par with modern MMA. And what a joy it was to watch HWs who fight with a pace of WWs