The Definitive: Top 5 Heavyweights of All-Time.

[faustian]

U had world champions and GOATs from sports like BJJ, judo, sambo, kickboxing etc. joining MMA, influx of Euro/Asian talent and money being paid for them. Even had strong boxing talent too. Sergei was an injury away from making the Russian Olympic team.

Not to mention Semmy, arguably the GOAT kickboxer who was in his physical prime in Pride. Fedor and Nog were not impressed. Meanwhile the current UFC HW champ got ko'd by Stefan Struve

 

[arcadeperfect]

Resume:
1. Fedor
2. Stipe
3. Werdum
4. DC, Cain
5. Reem

Ability:
1.Fedor, Cain
2. Stipe
3. DC
4. Werdum
5. Reem

JDS has a better resume than Cain.

 

[arcadeperfect]

Cain fought in an era/division when no one was really dangerous on the ground. Big Nog fought in an era/division where most of the top 10 had very legit high level submission games. I don't think Cain would have done nearly as well in the HW division in Pride as he did in the UFC's HW division.

I picked Werdum to beat Cain and thought he was a bad match up for Cain since Cain's primary style is to brawl into the clinch and take people down and I thought Werdum had better kickboxing and Cain wouldn't want any part of Werdum on the ground so the threat of the takedown wouldn't really be there for Cain. I was surprised at how many people thought Cain would be able to take Werdum down easily and be in no danger when he's literally never fought anyone dangerous on the ground(not counting landing some finishing GnP shots on Zombie Nog).

You and me both. I thought Werdum was going to win because Cain would be forced to stand with him. Cain's striking ability was overhyped by Rogan because of that overhand that landed on JDS. In the clinch, Werdum is much better than JDS, and can scare the shit outta anyone if he pulls guard.

 

[arcadeperfect]

I mean, no offense, and I know that this is all ultimately subjective, but I don't believe anyone who watched then and now can claim in good faith that the HW talent/performance is at a higher level today. You have Stipe and DC, then a guy in Ngannou who displayed a WMMA-tier skillset in his title fight. You have the ghost of Reem positioned to get another title shot in 2020 when this same guy, without the worry of USADA, was cutting massive weight to not fight at HW in Pride

Yes, Pride's condoning of PEDs obviously plays a role here, but the fact remains that the HWs who built their legacies in Pride were likely fighting vs enhanced opponents. Then there's the fact that Fedor was being routinely WADA tested during his Pride run and Nog's game was always based more on skill than physicality. Not saying they never used but Fedor was automatically at a disadvantage with his routine WADA testing and Nog's game conceivably stood less to benefit from PED use than a more aggressive physical fighter. Regardless it's a moot issue because PEDs were legal and you can only assume the rest of the division were on them in some form

Back to my point, I don't know how anyone can watch the slopfest that is the current UFC HW division and honestly say the talent level is higher than peak Pride. I have to assume anyone who believes this wasn't fortunate enough to have witnessed the Pride era

Here's two random full-fights that I was able to find online, involving 4 Pride HWs ranked anywhere from 2-10 at the time, and tell me with a straight face that you see this level of talent and fight-night performance from the current UFC HW division (keep in mind: 10 min 1st rounds, something that would be laughed at if you proposed it today in a landscape where HWs are lucky to make it past 3 mins while remaining upright)

Don't forget Fedor was undersized. Being smaller and fatter are handicaps, not advantages.

 

[Doug Money]

Fedor
Big nig
Miocic
Werdum
Ubereem

 

[Squidward_T]

Cormier if he beats Stipe again or its Fedor

 

[TankAbbott4Eva]

Cormier if he beats Stipe again or its Fedor

If Cormier had stayed at HW his whole career he'd be right up the list I'd say.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Upon rewatching those fights I'm not sure those versions of Aleks and Sergei wouldn't completely outclass Stipe, let alone what Nog would do

Granted, the PED factor, but the skill level was entirely on par with modern MMA. And what a joy it was to watch HWs who fight with a pace of WWs

Aleks and Sergei in their primes would IMO beat the crap out of Stipe. Seeing how much trouble Aleks gave prime Josh Barnett makes me think Stipe wouldn't be able to take him down and would get outstruck or TKOed and Sergei in his prime had a very good ground game though not as good TDD as Aleks had, I would favor both over Stipe at their best as they have similar skill sets but are both better strikers.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Cormier if he beats Stipe again or its Fedor

DC doesn't have enough HW fights.

 

[Squidward_T]

If Cormier had stayed at HW his whole career he'd be right up the list I'd say.

thats fair, cheers

 

[faustian]

Don't forget Fedor was undersized. Being smaller and fatter are handicaps, not advantages.

I think Fedor is the GOAT but I actually disagree that he fought at a disadvantage

Imo what separates LHWs (MWs in Pride) from smaller HWs is a combination of reach, punching power and chin/recovery. If you're lacking in any of those you might consider cutting to 205, but Fedor was okay enough in reach, strong in power, strong in chin/recovery. So he could hang with HWs in these elements. What's missing from the fight equation is speed, and that was Fedor's advantage, because he was a natural 205er, but it was only an advantage because he had the other attributes to hang at HW. He's similar to Dan Henderson and Shogun in that regard imo. Speaking of Hendo, I knew that was a dangerous fight because it was literally the first time in his pro career he was fighting a natural MW who'd presumably have the speed advantage yet still have the power/chin. And then I can't help but think back to Arona. Fedor was at his best when he had that speed advantage

 

[Squidward_T]

DC doesn't have enough HW fights, most of the top 5 all time have more top 10 wins than he has fights at HW.

 

[ConditFan]

Fedor
Nog
Werdum
Stipe
Junior/overeem/Cain?

 

[arcadeperfect]

I think Fedor is the GOAT but I actually disagree that he fought at a disadvantage

Imo what separates LHWs (MWs in Pride) from smaller HWs is a combination of reach, punching power and chin/recovery. If you're lacking in any of those you might consider cutting to 205, but Fedor was okay enough in reach, strong in power, strong in chin/recovery. So he could hang with HWs in these elements. What's missing from the fight equation is speed, and that was Fedor's advantage, because he was a natural 205er, but only because he had the other attributes that could hold up at HW. He's similar to Dan Henderson and Shogun in that regard imo. Speaking of Hendo, I knew that was a dangerous fight because it was literally the first time in his pro career he was fighting a natural MW who'd presumably have the speed advantage yet still have the power/chin

Oh his power and chin were definitely top tier. But carrying that extra belly instead of dieting and cutting to a smaller weight class is what makes it all the more badass. Dieting I can understand since most guys operate at their best when they're free of excess fat, but guys who cut an absurd amount of weight (25+ lbs) to fight at fucking 185 is what separates legends like Fedor and shitheads.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Fedor
Nog
Werdum
Stipe
Junior/overeem/Cain?

IMO the top 4 is easily Fedor, Nog/Werdum and Stipe after that it gets difficult with guys like JDS, Overeem, Barnett, Cro Cop and Cain all in a bunch.

 

[ConditFan]

IMO the top 4 is easily Fedor, Nog/Werdum and Stipe after that it gets difficult with guys like JDS, Overeem, Barnett, Cro Cop and Cain all in a bunch.

Yeah. It's get even more subjective. Total number of fights, which organizations, wins/losses, top ten wins, "in prime" record, champion/number of defenses

 

[markg171]

Glad you didn't include Cro Cop on the list.

It's mindboggling to me how often people say a guy who was never #1 in the world is so often cited as being a top 5 all-time great. You deserve credit for being ranked #2-3 at one point, but that doesn't put you ahead of people who were #1.

 

[faustian]

Oh his power and chin were definitely top tier. But carrying that extra belly instead of dieting and cutting to a smaller weight class is what makes it all the more badass. Dieting I can understand since most guys operate at their best when they're free of excess fat, but guys who cut an absurd amount of weight (25+ lbs) to fight at fucking 185 is what separates legends like Fedor and shitheads.

Prime Fedor wasn't exactly ripped but he wasn't Daniel Cormier either

He had some padding in the midsection but his 235 lbs was largely muscle. I think his frame is that of a smallish 205er (he's bigger than Shogun) but the extra ~30 lbs was likely put to ideal use

 

[arcadeperfect]

Prime Fedor wasn't exactly ripped but he wasn't Daniel Cormier either

He had some padding in the midsection but his 235 lbs was largely muscle. I think his frame is that of a smallish 205er (he's bigger than Shogun) but the extra ~30 lbs was likely put to ideal use

That's technically the most powerful bodytype. He's not the same type of fat as your typical couch potato, he's just not super cut and leaned out.

 

[DayV]

Glad you didn't include Cro Cop on the list.

It's mindboggling to me how often people say a guy who was never #1 in the world is so often cited as being a top 5 all-time great. You deserve credit for being ranked #2-3 at one point, but that doesn't put you ahead of people who were #1.

It puts you if those people have 10-15 fights in entire career.