The Definitive: Top 5 Heavyweights of All-Time.

[faustian]

@acannxr where are you getting your rankings? I’m certain AA was top 3 when Fedor beat him and Sylvia was top 5, possibly also Rodgers iirc

Also Herring was at least top 5 worldwide when Fedor beat him, that fight was a TS eliminator and Herring was the favorite

And Sylvia was definitely higher than 9 when Nog beat him, their fight was for the interim strap

 

[Taric]

Fedor, Nog, Werdum, JDS, and Miocic

I take issue with Werdum being oddly low on your list but if you have those 5 fighters listed you are at least in the right mindset, because anyone that doesn't have those 5 men listed is simply not knowledgeable about the subject matter.

Spoiler

Fedor - #1 HW of all time

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Nogueira 1
Top 5 fighters defeated (5):
Nogueira 3
Cro Cop
Arlovski
Sylvia
Herring
Top 10 fighters defeated (6):
Coleman 1
Hunt
Randleman
Schilt
Rogers
Fujita


Nogueira - #2 HW of all time

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Coleman
Top 5 fighters defeated (5):
Cro Cop
Sylvia
Herring 1
Barnett 2
Rodriguez
Top 10 fighters defeated (7):
Couture
Werdum
Herring 2
Kharitonov
Schaub
Schilt
Overeem


Werdum - #3 HW of all time

#1 fighters defeated (2):
Fedor
Velasquez
Top 5 fighters defeated (2):
Hunt
Browne
Top 10 fighters defeated (6):
Overeem
Gonzaga
Nelson
Alexander Emelianenko
Russow
Erikson


JDS - #4 HW of all time

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Velasquez
Top 5 fighters defeated (4):
Rothwell
Carwin
Hunt
Lewis
Top 10 fighters defeated (5):
Miocic
Mir
Nelson
Cro Cop
Werdum


Miocic - #5 HW of all time

#1 fighters defeated (2):
Werdum
Cormier
Top 5 fighters defeated (4):
Hunt
Overeem
JDS
Ngnannou
Top 10 fighters defeated (1):
Arlovski

 

[funksoulbrother]

I’ve got
Fedor
Nog
Sylvia
Jds
Werdum

 

[acannxr]

@acannxr where are you getting your rankings?

Literally all of the rankings in my post have links.

I’m certain AA was top 3 when Fedor beat him and Sylvia was top 5, possibly also Rodgers iirc

Also Herring was at least top 5 worldwide when Fedor beat him, that fight was a TS eliminator and Herring was the favorite

And Sylvia was definitely higher than 9 when Nog beat him, their fight was for the interim strap

And how am I suppose to apply this rationale in determining everyone else's ranks for the other candidates in this list? The answer is that I can't, which is why I used something that could be consistent across the board, and while it may not be a perfect methodology, the consistency allows for it to be the most fair option.

I'll entertain one of your examples though; let's look at your claim of Andrei Arlovski being in the top three, worldwide, just prior to the Emelianenko fight.

#1 - Fedor Emelianenko
#2 - Brock Lesnar (UFC Champion); he'd just defeated Randy Couture.
#3 - Frank Mir (Interim UFC Champion); he'd just defeated Antonio Nogueira.

Now why would Arlovski be ranked above Mir or Lesnar? Arlovski's best win after losing the title was Werdum, who was #9 at the time. Randy Couture was the UFC champion, and Lesnar defeated him, so that's a better win than #9 Werdum. Antonio Nogueira was the interim UFC champion, who defeated Sylvia, and Mir defeated Nogueira, which is also a better win than #9 Werdum.

Personally I think I have a pretty strong case, but subjectively trying to decide which fighter was at which rank at a certain point in time is as inconsistent as referencing something like Sherdog's rankings (since they too are subjectively made and have biases), so I simply refer to FightMatrix because at least those are all determined the same exact way, they're consistent.

And for what it's worth, this is how FightMatrix ranked Heavyweight at the time of Fedor and Arlovski's fight:

It sounds to me like whoever placed Arlovski in the top three at that time was biased against the UFC, or just trying to hype up the Affliction fight, which is also why I don't put an ounce of credibility into the UFC's rankings either.

 

[Wizzlebiz]

I understand the criticisms, but what you're asking for makes it a lot more subjective and a lot less objective. The criteria I used makes it consistent across the board, the moment I start adding the question of who was in their prime, not in their prime, pre-USADA, post-USADA, inactivity, age, win/loss ratio, etc. then it will ultimately be impossible to judge the candidate's correct position in this list because there's no objective way to answer all those questions.

Although this is true. If you added win loss ratios it will still be objective

 

[acannxr]

Although this is true. If you added win loss ratios it will still be objective

A win percentage is indeed objective on its own, but it's disingenuous as a statistic, and it would require a subjective analysis to correct.

For example, Women's Featherweight had a 66.7% finish rate in 2018, but that division also only had six fights.

 

[HHJ]

There's no definitive list without including deep footage study.

Deep footage study would only serve to elevate Fedor ABOVE number 1 and crash sherdog.

 

[Carl25]

I think Werdum could be interchangeable with Overeem

Beating Travis twice isn't that impressive

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

I disagree with the criteria. If you didn't fight in the UFC, then you don't deserve to be on the list. The "Top 10" qualifier is a bunch of nonsense, because we don't who is making the rankings and what algorithm they are using to rank fighters. So, why should we care who is ranked or not?

We should most definitely

 

[Sweater of AV]

*Checks to see where Fedor and Big Nog are ranked*

Looks good to me. Nice work buddeh.

 

[Taric]

Literally all of the rankings in my post have links.


And how am I suppose to apply this rationale in determining everyone else's ranks for the other candidates in this list? The answer is that I can't, which is why I used something that could be consistent across the board, and while it may not be a perfect methodology, the consistency allows for it to be the most fair option.

I'll entertain one of your examples though; let's look at your claim of Andrei Arlovski being in the top three, worldwide, just prior to the Emelianenko fight.

#1 - Fedor Emelianenko
#2 - Brock Lesnar (UFC Champion); he'd just defeated Randy Couture.
#3 - Frank Mir (Interim UFC Champion); he'd just defeated Antonio Nogueira.

Now why would Arlovski be ranked above Mir or Lesnar? Arlovski's best win after losing the title was Werdum, who was #9 at the time. Randy Couture was the UFC champion, and Lesnar defeated him, so that's a better win than #9 Werdum. Antonio Nogueira was the interim UFC champion, who defeated Sylvia, and Mir defeated Nogueira, which is also a better win than #9 Werdum.

Personally I think I have a pretty strong case, but subjectively trying to decide which fighter was at which rank at a certain point in time is as inconsistent as referencing something like Sherdog's rankings (since they too are subjectively made and have biases), so I simply refer to FightMatrix because at least those are all determined the same exact way, they're consistent.

And for what it's worth, this is how FightMatrix ranked Heavyweight at the time of Fedor and Arlovski's fight:

It sounds to me like whoever placed Arlovski in the top three at that time was biased against the UFC, or just trying to hype up the Affliction fight, which is also why I don't put an ounce of credibility into the UFC's rankings either.

Sherdog had Arlovski ranked as the #2 HW before and after the Fedor fight.

Sherdog Rankings - January 7th,2009
Sherdog Rankings- January 29th, 2009

Sherdog did not have Randy as the #2 HW in the world when Randy was champion, which is why Brock defeating Couture did not vault him very high up the rankings.

To take this further, the FightMatrix chart you just showed shows Nogueira was ranked higher than Couture, both before and after their losses, so at best the FightMatrix algorithm should have had Lesnar at #3 behind Mir since Mir defeated the higher ranked fighter (Nogueira) based off their own metrics... Having a fighter vault up 9 spots over a fighter (Mir) that beat a higher ranked fighter than Lesnar shows that FightMatrix doesn't actually follow a mathematical algorithm like it claims it does.

 

[faustian]

Literally all of the rankings in my post have links.


And how am I suppose to apply this rationale in determining everyone else's ranks for the other candidates in this list? The answer is that I can't, which is why I used something that could be consistent across the board, and while it may not be a perfect methodology, the consistency allows for it to be the most fair option.

I'll entertain one of your examples though; let's look at your claim of Andrei Arlovski being in the top three, worldwide, just prior to the Emelianenko fight.

#1 - Fedor Emelianenko
#2 - Brock Lesnar (UFC Champion); he'd just defeated Randy Couture.
#3 - Frank Mir (Interim UFC Champion); he'd just defeated Antonio Nogueira.

Now why would Arlovski be ranked above Mir or Lesnar? Arlovski's best win after losing the title was Werdum, who was #9 at the time. Randy Couture was the UFC champion, and Lesnar defeated him, so that's a better win than #9 Werdum. Antonio Nogueira was the interim UFC champion, who defeated Sylvia, and Mir defeated Nogueira, which is also a better win than #9 Werdum.

Personally I think I have a pretty strong case, but subjectively trying to decide which fighter was at which rank at a certain point in time is as inconsistent as referencing something like Sherdog's rankings (since they too are subjectively made and have biases), so I simply refer to FightMatrix because at least those are all determined the same exact way, they're consistent.

And for what it's worth, this is how FightMatrix ranked Heavyweight at the time of Fedor and Arlovski's fight:

It sounds to me like whoever placed Arlovski in the top three at that time was biased against the UFC, or just trying to hype up the Affliction fight, which is also why I don't put an ounce of credibility into the UFC's rankings either.

I get it bud, for consistency sake I agree FightMatrix is probably the way to go, if for no other reason than the data is available

Regarding AA, at the time of the Fedor fight, 01/24/2009, he was ranked #2 in the world behind only Fedor according to the average rankings compiled from 23 MMA media outlets:

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/1/11/716604/bloody-elbow-january-mma-m

Why would he be ranked ahead of Lesnar and Mir?

- He was on a 5 fight win streak (4 finishes -- including shattering Rothwell's 13 fight win streak via KO and being the first to ever KO Roy Nelson, on top of defeating Werdum) and his last loss was 2.5 years prior, to his nemesis Sylvia in a rematch for the UFC HW strap. Prior to that he was UFC HW champ

- Lesnar was on a 2 fight win streak, those wins being a decision over a washed Herring and finish over an absurdly undersized 45yo Randy Couture

- Mir was on a 3 fight win streak with finishes over Hardonk, Lesnar (2nd career MMA fight) and a strong finish of a still game Nog. Prior to that he'd dropped 2 of 3 to Brandon Vera and Marcio Cruz (who AA soon KO'd on his streak)

I mean I don't see anything objectively wrong with AA being ranked ahead of Lesnar/Mir at that point. You also gotta remember the context; the shiny UFC HW strap wasn't the be all end all of MMA back then that it is today. Brock and Mir's belt variations held a lot less water than the status of legitimately earning a TS vs the undisputed #1 fighter on the planet. The UFC HW division had not even come close to monopolizing the sport yet (only 8 of the top 20 ranked HWs in the world) and the big show was what was taking place over at the top of Affliction's HW division

Also, if FightMatrix doesn't have Heath Herring ranked in Nov 2002 then there's clearly an oversight on their part. According to this source MMA media rankings had Herring #3 overall worldwide mid-2002 before his Fedor fight:

https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fo...ived-Rankings-for-HW--205-1998---2005:1519502

I like your research and I get why you had to use FightMatrix, but it is worth pointing out that it doesn't necessarily reflect the general consensus or context of the eras and specifically in January 2009 the methodology is flawed as it rewarded extra points for title fights when title and interim title fights in the UFC HW division were being passed around like damaged goods whereas Affliction was a brand new promotion with a grand total of one HW title fight to that point. Literally how else can you account for Couture -- on a 2-2 stretch fresh off getting smashed by Brock -- being ranked ahead of AA if not for the fact that his score was inflated by title fights

 

[Bouboumaster]

lol at any top 5 HW list that doesn't include Big Nog.

what a fuckin noob.

Nog was a legend in an era where a sumo wrestler was a credible opponent.
Fedor was THE legend of this era, and he's #1 for it (and the fact that he's still an animal today), but Stipe, Cormier, Cain and JDS are/were legits af
Anyone of those four would have fucking killed Big Nog

 

[Dorkman]

Glad to see a thread giving stipe respect. He gets shit on a lot for no reason considering how accomplished and down to earth he is.

 

[pick999]

fedor

 

[RawkyMarciano]

Criteria:

• Number of top ten opponents at Heavyweight.
• Time spent ranked as a top five fighter in the Heavyweight Division
• Only listing #1-10 Heavyweight ranked opponents in candidates' resumes.

Honorable Mention - Cain Velasquez

Velasquez' resume:

#3 Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
#1 Brock Lesnar
#9 Antonio Silva
#1 Junior dos Santos
#3 Antonio Silva
#2 Junior dos Santos
#8 Travis Browne

Velasquez defeated seven, top ten opponents.
Velasquez was ranked in the top five from 1/1/10 to 1/1/15 and 7/1/15 to 10/1/17 for a combined total of 7 years and 3 months.

The overly redundant resume and the fact that a large portion of the time that Velasquez was ranked in the top five he was inactive due to injury, is why he gets only an honorable mention.

#5 - Fabricio Werdum

Werdum's resume:

#4 Gabriel Gonzaga
#1 Fedor Emelianenko
#5 Travis Browne
#5 Mark Hunt
#1 Cain Velasquez
#8 Travis Browne

Werdum defeated six, top ten opponents.
Werdum was ranked in the top five from 4/1/08 to 10/1/08, 7/1/10 to 10/1/11, 4/1/12 to 1/1/13, 7/1/13 to 4/1/18 for a combined total of 7 years and 3 months.

#4 - Stipe Miocic

Miocic's resume:

#5 Mark Hunt
#3 Andrei Arlovski
#1 Fabricio Werdum
#3 Alistair Overeem
#5 Junior dos Santos
#2 Francis Ngannou
#1 Daniel Cormier

Miocic defeated seven, top ten opponents.
Miocic was ranked in the top five from 4/1/14 to 7/1/14 and 4/1/15 to Today for a combined total of 4 years and 11 months.

#3 - Junior dos Santos

dos Santos' resume:

#4 Fabricio Werdum
#9 Mirko Filipovic
#6 Shane Carwin
#1 Cain Velasquez
#4 Frank Mir
#9 Mark Hunt
#6 Ben Rothwell
#4 Derrick Lewis

dos Santos defeated eight, top ten opponents.
dos Santos was ranked in the top five from 10/1/09 to 4/1/10, 10/1/10 to 1/1/16, 7/1/16 to 1/1/18, and 4/1/19 to Today for a combined total of 7 years and 11 months.

#2 - Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira

Nogueira's resume:

#5 Valentijn Overeem
#5 Gary Goodridge
#3 Mark Coleman
#6 Ricco Rodriguez
#5 Mirko Filipovic
#10 Heath Herring
#9 Fabricio Werdum
#3 Josh Barnett
#9 Tim Sylvia
#5 Randy Couture

Nogueira defeated ten, top ten opponents.
Nogueira was ranked in the top five from 4/1/01 to 1/1/10 for a combined total of 8 years and 9 months.

#1 - Fedor Emelianenko

Emelianenko's resume:

#8 Renato Sobral
#6 Semmy Schilt
#1 Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
#9 Gary Goodridge
#9 Mark Coleman
#7 Kevin Randleman
#2 Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
#4 Mirko Filipovic
#4 Mark Coleman
#7 Mark Hunt
#8 Tim Sylvia
#6 Andrei Arlovski
#8 Brett Rogers

Emelianenko defeated thirteen, top ten opponents.
Emelianenko was ranked in the top five from 4/1/02 to 1/1/11 for a combined total of 8 years and 9 months.

For those who will undoubtedly ask about Daniel Cormier:

Spoiler

Cormier's resume:

#6 Antonio Silva
#8 Josh Barnett
#7 Frank Mir
#1 Stipe Miocic
#5 Derrick Lewis

Cormier defeated five, top ten opponents.
Cormier was ranked in the top five from 7/1/12 to 1/1/14 and 10/1/18 to Today for a combined total of 2 years and 8 months.

Cormier has the least amount of top ten wins and the shortest amount of time spent in the top five rankings out of everyone in this list (including Velasquez).

I love you

 

[frye666]

Nog was a legend in an era where a sumo wrestler was a credible opponent.
Fedor was THE legend of this era, and he's #1 for it (and the fact that he's still an animal today), but Stipe, Cormier, Cain and JDS are/were legits af
Anyone of those four would have fucking killed Big Nog

Nog was a pride and UFC heavyweight champ. He already had 34 fights BEFORE he joined the UFC. UFC Nog was a far cry from prime Nog

 

[blaseblah]

Literally all of the rankings in my post have links.


And how am I suppose to apply this rationale in determining everyone else's ranks for the other candidates in this list? The answer is that I can't, which is why I used something that could be consistent across the board, and while it may not be a perfect methodology, the consistency allows for it to be the most fair option.

I'll entertain one of your examples though; let's look at your claim of Andrei Arlovski being in the top three, worldwide, just prior to the Emelianenko fight.

#1 - Fedor Emelianenko
#2 - Brock Lesnar (UFC Champion); he'd just defeated Randy Couture.
#3 - Frank Mir (Interim UFC Champion); he'd just defeated Antonio Nogueira.

Now why would Arlovski be ranked above Mir or Lesnar? Arlovski's best win after losing the title was Werdum, who was #9 at the time. Randy Couture was the UFC champion, and Lesnar defeated him, so that's a better win than #9 Werdum. Antonio Nogueira was the interim UFC champion, who defeated Sylvia, and Mir defeated Nogueira, which is also a better win than #9 Werdum.

Did you only use fightmatrix? Most rankings I remember seeing didn't have Brock ranked that highly due to him being 3-1 with his only high level win over an aging couture. Arlovski at the time was on a fight five winning streak with his last loss being for the title. Would be cool to see this same idea but using another ranking system.

 

[Taric]

Would be cool to see this same idea but using another ranking system.

Spoiler

Fedor - #1 HW of all time

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Nogueira 1
Top 5 fighters defeated (5):
Nogueira 3
Cro Cop
Arlovski
Sylvia
Herring
Top 10 fighters defeated (6):
Coleman 1
Hunt
Randleman
Schilt
Rogers
Fujita


Nogueira - #2 HW of all time

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Coleman
Top 5 fighters defeated (5):
Cro Cop
Sylvia
Herring 1
Barnett 2
Rodriguez
Top 10 fighters defeated (7):
Couture
Werdum
Herring 2
Kharitonov
Schaub
Schilt
Overeem


Werdum - #3 HW of all time

#1 fighters defeated (2):
Fedor
Velasquez
Top 5 fighters defeated (2):
Hunt
Browne
Top 10 fighters defeated (6):
Overeem
Gonzaga
Nelson
Alexander Emelianenko
Russow
Erikson


JDS - #4 HW of all time

#1 fighters defeated (1):
Velasquez
Top 5 fighters defeated (4):
Rothwell
Carwin
Hunt
Lewis
Top 10 fighters defeated (5):
Miocic
Mir
Nelson
Cro Cop
Werdum


Miocic - #5 HW of all time

#1 fighters defeated (2):
Werdum
Cormier
Top 5 fighters defeated (4):
Hunt
Overeem
JDS
Ngnannou
Top 10 fighters defeated (1):
Arlovski

 

[Pakman]

Nog was a legend in an era where a sumo wrestler was a credible opponent.
Fedor was THE legend of this era, and he's #1 for it (and the fact that he's still an animal today), but Stipe, Cormier, Cain and JDS are/were legits af
Anyone of those four would have fucking killed Big Nog

Cain did kill him, albeit many moons after Nog was the #1 fighter in the entiire sport.

And head to head hypothetical match-ups are not how ALL time rankings work. You don't seem to understand that, so I'll explain.

It doesn't matter if DC or JDS could beat Nog (JDS would never fight him in the first place if you had a clue), it matters about their resume.

If you want to say Stipe due to winning the belt multiple times, beating the top guys of this era (which is lolbad HW is literally one of the worst divisions in all of MMA), cool.

JDS has a better resume in the UFC than the other guys you mentioned.

DC isn't even fucking close. Like, not even remotely close.

You don't seem to realize how many top tier wins Big Nog had. Nor what it meant to be the #1 fighter in the sport. Not just the HW division, but Big Nog was widely considered the ABSOLUTE BEST FIGHTER IN THE ENTIRE SPORT.

Literally 0 of those guys were considered that, aside from a brief moment in time when Cain looked like the baddest man on the planet.