The Con is on

[Devout Pessimist]

Your point about 40% hits home... Let's say in a perfect world, he gets crushed in a general, it's still 40% of this nation that clearly doesn't get it and/or really doesn't want to get it. It very much lays bare just how completely delusional a large swatch of the US still is about racism, bigotry and plain old discrimination. These are in large part also the same cohort of people that point to the Constitution and Bill of rights every time they feel that their power is slipping because of big bad Govt's overstepping. Never mind the fact that one of the most central and profound concepts holding together those documents is equality.

The entire sad episode exposes what many of us have known for a long time, the Republican party has enabled, coddled and been empowered by a truly racist core of low information voters that want to take us back to 1960.

The real problem is the left aggressively alienating, demonizing and degrading white working-class males. Why would white working-class males side with the left when the left is constantly labeling them as illiterate, uneducated, racist, homophobic, misogynists who are the cause of all the problems in the world?

 

[DragRacer]

To me the Hitler analogies are a sign of desperation on behalf of Trump's opponents. They see his popularity deflecting all the normal smear attacks, and continuing to rise so out come the politcal H-bombs, call him a racist and compare him to Hitler.
It's garbage and I'm not the only one disgusted that people participate in this kind of behavior.

Bush was already part of the establishment. His father goes back and was head of the CIA. Bush, the president, did not decide what to do. He sold the agenda like he is supposed to, and the media helped sell it as well. The idea that it was just him orchestrating foreign policy and everything is crazy to me. He was just a focal point.

The hilter analogies are there to some extent but they are pretty soft IMO. What are people supposed to do, accept whatever the establishment wants to push at the risk of being painted with Hitler analogies? It's a well greased political strategy to invoke hitler to try to sway the masses. Everyone has learned about the terrors through the school system and Hollywood and it is constantly reinforced. Very useful. Bernie has called out the bankers and is for border control so should people be worried about him being the next Hitler as well? I understand the analogy that is drawn mostly is because there is a nativist sentiment on the right, but this is the same in most countries around the world. It is an odd time we live in, where the establishment is actually anti-nationalist, pro globalist. It is predictable for people to resent that to some extent.

The current people in power (the ones that don't go away every election) are far worse than Trump IMO and serve Oligarchy. Whether a guy like Trump or Bernie would actually affect that, well who knows. I doubt it. But perceptions count.

I don't know about qualifications to be president. It didn't seem like Obama had much in that regard either. But, I think there is a good portion of people who actually like the fact that Trump isn't a politician.

 

[KILL KILL]

To me the Hitler analogies are a sign of desperation on behalf of Trump's opponents. They see his popularity deflecting all the normal smear attacks, and continuing to rise so out come the politcal H-bombs, call him a racist and compare him to Hitler.
It's garbage and I'm not the only one disgusted that people participate in this kind of behavior.

...that or there are some obvious parallels. But I'm sure it's desperation.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

I just think it's hilarious that economically struggling whites are flocking to him. Trump would grind their idiot carcasses into paste and sell them as soylent green if he could.

Actually he would outsource the grinding overseas than sell you as paste.

 

[IDL]

Actually he would outsource the grinding overseas than sell you as paste.

But the paste would be fantastic. Top quality paste.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

But the paste would be fantastic. Top quality paste.

Most likely it would be cheaply made

 

[Possum Jenkins]

They are both the same in the way that they identify groups of people and then pander to them for support. On the left it's generally feminist/females minorities and youth. On the right it's blue collar men and whites. Do you seriously not see through Hillary's pandering to BLM? Sanders offering the moon to immature spoiled millennials? It's all the same game and who can get the most pawns wins. This has been going on for thousands of years. Caesar conquered Gaul and spent the spoils of war on the plebs back in Rome to undermine the political powers then too.

Every political party and candidate has constituents, that's true.

The difference is, the GOP's constituents get absolutely fleeced over and over again for decades. Poor and rural whites voting for the party that unabashedly distributes money upward is just shocking. Of course, they wrap up their message with scapegoating and jingoism but still,

And no, the Democrats don't get screwed nearly to the same degree. Obamacare, DACA, the Iran deal, the China climate change agreement, no more invasions, these are all things liberals have been pushing for and Obama's delivered.

 

[DragRacer]

Please. You know how many ignorant fucktards goaded me for supporting Obama because electing him was the same thing as electing Stalin? People do this shit every time the political team they prefer is losing.

...that or there are some obvious parallels. But I'm sure it's desperation.

 

[Fawlty]

You mean teaching diverse people to all think the same way?

The question is, what is worth teaching? I would rather have diversity in what is taught and how it is taught than having government and educational theorists dictate what people should know. If you are not comfortable with decentralizing education then what about at least giving more flexibility to schools and teachers in how and what they teach with a reasonable limit?

The benefit of giving less control to government and theorists is that you lessen the damage when a new educational trend comes along and the state forces all of the schools to incorporate that method. The state controlling US schools has not gone too well when you consider US schools are ranked 30th among developed nations.

What is worth teaching? History, Math, Science, Language, and as kids get older they get a little elective freedom, and when they are adults they can pay to study what they want. It's a pretty good framework at least in America, and we've managed to do it without a national curriculum. Though a lot of people think we have a national curriculum now, which is of course not true. I think America now does have a good shot at educating kids well across the board with common core (which suggests acceptable broad standards and is highly locally flexible, perhaps the best of both worlds if done with effort). The problems with motivating via financial penalties for poor test scores have been exposed under both Bush and Obama. No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top suck.

Our problems lately have been mostly to do with local funding (poor tax base = dirt poor school) and lowering standards for the appearance of success. So if the local control of schools combined with the national demands for "teaching the test" has produced radically unequal conditions and results, how is more local control part of the answer? What can the locals do? If the school has no money, hungry distracted kids, etc. there just isn't a chance to succeed at all. So some state and federal intervention seems necessary. Under leadership of the governors of the states and the cooperation of the Department of Education, new standards were developed. Now that we have a good base at a national level for standards, plus the local flexibility we need, now we need to address the funding. It's going to be expensive but worth it. We'll have to be careful not to control the federal purse strings too tightly, and it appears we're going to head in that direction. But I don't mind categorical grants that require states to distribute their taxes more equitably, rather than hanging the poor kids out to dry. That's where I would go with it anyway.

 

[MTT]

Those of you taking the stance that Trump is a bigot and authoritarian, can you provide some examples of why you feel that way?

 

[Fawlty]

Those of you taking the stance that Trump is a bigot and authoritarian, can you provide some examples of why you feel that way?

lol, be minimally observant

 

[MTT]

I am aware of the claims of authoritarianism and why - what about bigot? In your opinion - why is he a bigot? I am not disagreeing nor agreeing, I am asking you why it is you feel that way?

 

[Fawlty]

"It's crazy, I ask why Trump is a bigot and nobody will answer me..."

MTT to friend, tomorrow

 

[MTT]

You've convinced me.

 

[DragRacer]

This is some interesting stuff going on , that's for sure whichever side you're on.

I'm not talking about people programmed to vote blue regardless, for the most part people are civil as a whole. I'm talking about these douchebag disruptive protesters when I say that you could not define hypocrite any more perfectly.

We were at Trumps rally in Dayton the other day and for those of you who haven't been to one of his rallies... You would be nauseous seeing and hearing the mean, hateful crowd that had assembled in the area designated for protesters. I hear fuck this and fuck you that screamed at us countless times as we walked to the entrance , my wife called a whore, nazi shit being yelled... Amazing how disgustingly hateful a group of people could be as they gather to protest someone they claim represents hate?

And let's look at the definition of bigot.

Word for word-

"a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions."

So what we unfortunately experienced was a group of hateful bigots , gathered to disrupt and hoping to silence the speech of someone like Trump that they hate with fever because he's a bigot and represents hate. So hence the hypocrite badge of honor is issued as well.

And they wonder why people are energized for Trump....
...wait, It must be because THEY RACIST!! Lmfao

 

[UpaLoompa]

What about giving more flexibility to teachers, but still maintain a state standard? For example, maintain the general educational outcomes, but have less specific outcomes. That way there is still a standard, but teachers have some flexibility and creativity as to how they reach those general outcomes.

I do not know how it works in the USA, but in Canada it is the provinces that oversee the curriculum.

That's common core.

 

[Fawlty]

That's common core.

Sorry, but according to my fox instructions you are incorrect. It is a secret Department of Education program used to subvert local education, enslave school districts to bad teachers, and to give black people money they don't deserve.

 

[Octavian]

When there are only two people to vote for, it is very difficult to subscribe the intent onto an entire half because you prefer the other candidate by comparison.

It would basically mean that people need to vote Democrat (and establishment if Hillary) otherwise they are bad people as judged by some arbitrary criteria applied to all. That is extremely unrealistic.

The right does this too when demonizing the leftist voters. Most people are moderate, but have to vote for one of the two turds. It doesn't mean everyone likes turds.

What you call "arbitrary" I call obvious... that's not just a whimsical opinion, so try again with some better logic. Voting for Trump has clear meaning either because you support his message or because you're complicit with it. I think we know pretty well at this point what voting for Trump is actually voting for... this doesn't need to devolve into an obscure philosophical debate.

The real problem is the left aggressively alienating, demonizing and degrading white working-class males. Why would white working-class males side with the left when the left is constantly labeling them as illiterate, uneducated, racist, homophobic, misogynists who are the cause of all the problems in the world?

Critical distinction here: many white working class males openly show/expose themselves to be uneducated, homophobic, misogynists... and that's not to say other segments of the population are without serious flaws - they certainly are. Many on the left are also repulsively self-righteous and in doing so, undercut their own causes by turning people off. On the other hand, people on the left simply aren't afraid to address the issue, whereas people on the right, specifically the GOP, has coddled and embraced it as "white culture" which is offensive, sad and deeply troubling to think that a large group of people embrace low-information thinking as defending their values and tradition. God forbid white males seek to be educated, embrace diversity and equality - god forbid they respect women and take a moment to listen to their inherent cultural and racial biases.

This is about a large ethnic group in middle American perceiving their long held power to be waning and they're having trouble adapting to the world - folks, I give you conservatism at its heart - the effort of forestalling advance, change and progress in fear of losing power (except this white, male working class population in America lost its power long ago - mostly because of the policies of the GOP which has championed free-trade). They only perceive their power because the GOP has insidiously wrapped a vice grip on the House and deludes these people into thinking that they're looking out for their benefit... the inevitable march of progress is too much for conservative ideology in the long run and in 100 years, today's leftists will be considered conservatives - today's conservatives will be considered embarrassing dinosaurs of their time. One of the true examples of where conservative values won out and held a stranglehold on society is the dark ages when the Catholic Church ruled peoples' minds with an iron fist, outlawed science and reason, and the Western World sat in neutral for almost 1000 years, repressed and unable to grow emotionally or scientifically.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

What you call "arbitrary" I call obvious... that's not just a whimsical opinion, so try again with some better logic. Voting for Trump has clear meaning either because you support his message or because you're complicit with it. I think we know pretty well at this point what voting for Trump is actually voting for... this doesn't need to devolve into an obscure philosophical debate.


Critical distinction here: many white working class males openly show/expose themselves to be uneducated, homophobic, misogynists... and that's not to say other segments of the population are without serious flaws - they certainly are. Many on the left are also repulsively self-righteous and in doing so, undercut their own causes by turning people off. On the other hand, people on the left simply aren't afraid to address the issue, whereas people on the right, specifically the GOP, has coddled and embraced it as "white culture" which is offensive, sad and deeply troubling to think that a large group of people embrace low-information thinking as defending their values and tradition. God forbid white males seek to be educated, embrace diversity and equality - god forbid they respect women and take a moment to listen to their inherent cultural and racial biases.

This is about a large ethnic group in middle American perceiving their long held power to be waning and they're having trouble adapting to the world - folks, I give you conservatism at its heart - the effort of forestalling advance, change and progress in fear of losing power (except this white, male working class population in America lost its power long ago - mostly because of the policies of the GOP which has championed free-trade). They only perceive their power because the GOP has insidiously wrapped a vice grip on the House and deludes these people into thinking that they're looking out for their benefit... the inevitable march of progress is too much for conservative ideology in the long run and in 100 years, today's leftists will be considered conservatives - today's conservatives will be considered embarrassing dinosaurs of their time. One of the true examples of where conservative values won out and held a stranglehold on society is the dark ages when the Catholic Church ruled peoples' minds with an iron fist, outlawed science and reason, and the Western World sat in neutral for almost 1000 years, repressed and unable to grow emotionally or scientifically.

 

[Octavian]

The real problem is the left aggressively alienating, demonizing and degrading white working-class males. Why would white working-class males side with the left when the left is constantly labeling them as illiterate, uneducated, racist, homophobic, misogynists who are the cause of all the problems in the world?

I went in a diatribe in the previous post but I'll get more to the point here.... much of what Trump is talking about doing is actually stuff that's been championed by leftists before, which is really why the GOP establishment is appalled by him - not because of his outrageously racist talk. They're just pretending that they don't like that because they know it makes him a much longer shot to win the election and thereby undercut their power. Aside from Trumps bellicose talk about Muslims and Mexicans, what he's talking about is mass protectionism and isolationism - that flies directly in the face of neo-conservative foreign policy and libertarian/GOP style free markets economic thought.

The GOP, basically since Reagan, has been crying about Democrat/Left Wing programs and efforts to send aid and frankly - redistribute wealth to the less fortunate masses in the US. Their rallying cry has been that "colored" welfare queens are abusing the system, so how could rich, white America possibly have the stomach to pay for it. Except, much of that aid also targets poor white Americans who're struggling to stay above water because of their geographic location and education levels. The hit to American low to mid-skilled industry is inevitable - it CANNOT be avoided in the long run, so this story has a sad ending no matter what. For a long time, Democrats and the Left has tried to address this with social welfare policies (like them or not). What complicates the matter is that you also have had a few popular Democrats like Clinton who championed NAFTA because they saw the inevitability of free trade and the overall benefits, regardless of how it strips jobs from the US - if we don't do that, we're just subsidizing massive industries that are non-competitive on a global scale. This looks great for say - China right now but in the long run, it's only able to do this because it's amassed huge reserves that are now backstopping the terribly misallocated capital that has been poured into these noncompetitive industries.

Probably the most important thing that could be offered to middle America right now is better education... they're at the point where they can't pay for it themselves without strong subsidization - frankly, even much better off urban Americans can't really pay for it (because it's an outrageous cost that can't be justified by the salary benefits unless you go to HBS). But again, we hit a wall here because the GOP for as long as I can remember is wholly opposed to offering this sort of aid, so they fight it tooth and nail at every turn but disguise it with the racial dog whistles per usual strategy... so Democrats have to make concessions because they can't get elected in the low information middle America districts anymore because the GOP has so thoroughly brainwashed its constituents into thinking that embracing backwards, conservative, stuck in the mud ideology is going to help them. So, really there is a major informational disconnect with impoverished white voters because they're so easily caught up in the race baiting game... you can see it clearly with Trump - he's literally talking about the opposite of typical GOP policy on so many levels and his supporters are frothing at the mouth in support of those policies - it's because what they're really interested in is his social message about race, about hurting America and about confirming their misguided perception that colored masses are ruining their chance to be rich and succeed... except that's not ruining it at all.