Ken vs barnett

[Kforcer]

Submission grappling wasn't really a thing when Ken was competing. ADCC didn't start until 1998, which was the first grappling-only event in which MMA fighters started to compete (and in which Barnett went 2-3). The closest thing was Pancrase, which was called "hybrid wrestling" since by and large the competitors agreed to strike on the feet and grapple on the ground, giving the ground exchanges a "purity" (i.e. no GNP) more akin to ADCC than the UFC. And Ken was literally the King of Pancrase. Ken ironically competed in more straight kickboxing matches - he psychotically agreed to a bout with Frank "The Animal" Lobman - than straight grappling matches. But based on how well Ken did in Pancrase, it's hard not to imagine him having comparable success. The Ken Shamrock that ruled Pancrase and the UFC in 1995-1996 was a terrifyingly skilled grappler with nasty finishing ability and suffocating top control. And he had no problems locking horns with the likes of Dan Severn and Kimo, both of whom were bigger and stronger than Barnett (and an older Severn did a pretty good job taking down and controlling Barnett when they fought early in Barnett's career).

You had S.A.W.'s grappling competitions and Combat Wrestling well before ADCC; Koichiro Kimura was a multi-time S.A.W. champion. Combat Wrestling tended to draw tons of Japanese MMA fighters, though of course, barely any Americans or foreigners (though there were some). At the same time, it would be pretty unusual for a guy tied to something as huge as Pancrase was at the time in Japan to risk the credibility of his organization competing in a S.A.W. tournament. Although, Takefumi Ito competed in S.A.W. A guy risked having his arm broken in order to pull-out the win on points over Ito in the semi-finals, because I think having a win over a Pancrase guy was that huge of a deal for them.

 

[Highway99]

I get it. And I'm not trying to make it sound like I think Barnett sucked. We're talking about two of the most elite catch wrestlers to ever compete in MMA, if not the two most elite. We're splitting hairs and talking about slight possible edges. But Barnett has been submitted a few times, including by the much smaller Ricardo Almeida in ADCC (Gordon Ryan is also much smaller, but he's the GOAT, so there's that) and by the much less skilled Mark Kerr. If they could catch him, Ken absolutely could've. Also, for that Nogueira fight, it bears mentioning that Nog also got tapped by a kneebar against Ricco Rodriguez in ADCC. His leg game wasn't up to par, but nobody was exchanging submissions with him, so that weakness was only ever exposed by Ricco and Barnett. Credit where credit's due, but getting to Nog's legs isn't the same as if Barnett could've gotten to Arlovski's legs with his sambo training or Yuki Kondo's with his catch wrestling.



Love that podcast. I've watched a bunch, including Ken's and Bas'. Thanks for the heads-up.

The losses Barnett accrued then were at a time when he had only two, maybe three years with Hume if that. And to be fair Mark Kerr was a fucking monster and was beating the living shit out of everyone then. Josh at 30-35 was far more seasoned in his prime and much harder to catch.

 

[Bullitt68]

You had S.A.W.'s grappling competitions and Combat Wrestling well before ADCC; Koichiro Kimura was a multi-time S.A.W. champion. Combat Wrestling tended to draw tons of Japanese MMA fighters, though of course, barely any Americans or foreigners (though there were some). At the same time, it would be pretty unusual for a guy tied to something as huge as Pancrase was at the time in Japan to risk the credibility of his organization competing in a S.A.W. tournament. Although, Takefumi Ito competed in S.A.W. A guy risked having his arm broken in order to pull-out the win on points over Ito in the semi-finals, because I think having a win over a Pancrase guy was that huge of a deal for them.

Ooh, good call on Combat Wrestling. Forgot about that. But wasn't that all little guys, like Sato and Gomi and Imanari? For SAW, though, that was pretty niche even in the Japanese combat sports scene, no? It was like its own "style" like Pancrase's "hybrid wrestling," except nowhere near as prestigious. Besides which, like you said, Ken's not just in Pancrase, he's the top dog when SAW started putting on tournaments with their guys showcasing the art. Kimura competed in MMA once and put together a losing 1-2 record, while Ito had a losing record of 7-10-2 in Pancrase while Ken was champ. Nobody big was competing there, and Ken was getting enough shit from Pancrase for even competing in the UFC, and would eventually drop his title to Suzuki just to get them off his back and so he could freely be the UFC champ. There needed to be a culture shift, or ADCC needed to be around a decade earlier, for it to have been plausible for Ken to compete in Pancrase, the UFC, and a small grappling organization like SAW. But it certainly would've been cool to see. Not sure why Pancrase didn't do more grappling-only stuff since they were supplementing their MMA events with kickboxing bouts. They may have been able to attract more judo, sambo, and other catch guys.

The losses Barnett accrued then were at a time when he had only two, maybe three years with Hume if that. And to be fair Mark Kerr was a fucking monster and was beating the living shit out of everyone then. Josh at 30-35 was far more seasoned in his prime and much harder to catch.

True enough. Just worth pointing out the precedents. Ken got caught in an RNC against Royce and could've fallen prey to one against Barnett, and Barnett got caught in some transition submissions and Ken was great at catching people in transitions. It's all very interesting...

 

[Highway99]

True enough. Just worth pointing out the precedents. Ken got caught in an RNC against Royce and could've fallen prey to one against Barnett, and Barnett got caught in some transition submissions and Ken was great at catching people in transitions. It's all very interesting...

Interesting yes....but frustrating, like trying to imagine what Kelly Kapowski looked like naked when I was a kid....I'll always be left wondering, and if I saw her naked now I'd probably just be disappointed...

 

[Bullitt68]

Interesting yes....but frustrating, like trying to imagine what Kelly Kapowski looked like naked when I was a kid....I'll always be left wondering, and if I saw her naked now I'd probably just be disappointed...

Kelly Kapowski is the Baby-Faced Assassin. Valerie Malone is the Warmaster

 

[Kforcer]

Ooh, good call on Combat Wrestling. Forgot about that. But wasn't that all little guys, like Sato and Gomi and Imanari? For SAW, though, that was pretty niche even in the Japanese combat sports scene, no? It was like its own "style" like Pancrase's "hybrid wrestling," except nowhere near as prestigious. Besides which, like you said, Ken's not just in Pancrase, he's the top dog when SAW started putting on tournaments with their guys showcasing the art. Kimura competed in MMA once and put together a losing 1-2 record, while Ito had a losing record of 7-10-2 in Pancrase while Ken was champ. Nobody big was competing there, and Ken was getting enough shit from Pancrase for even competing in the UFC, and would eventually drop his title to Suzuki just to get them off his back and so he could freely be the UFC champ. There needed to be a culture shift, or ADCC needed to be around a decade earlier, for it to have been plausible for Ken to compete in Pancrase, the UFC, and a small grappling organization like SAW. But it certainly would've been cool to see. Not sure why Pancrase didn't do more grappling-only stuff since they were supplementing their MMA events with kickboxing bouts. They may have been able to attract more judo, sambo, and other catch guys.



True enough. Just worth pointing out the precedents. Ken got caught in an RNC against Royce and could've fallen prey to one against Barnett, and Barnett got caught in some transition submissions and Ken was great at catching people in transitions. It's all very interesting...

Well, they did have Pancrase catch-wrestling, with their inaugural title match being between Suzuki and Delucia and some matches prior to that. That was after Ken left of course. I guess they still have their Pancrase catch-wrestling format and tournaments going on. That was heartbreaking that Delucia beat Suzuki, but Delucia WAS always way better than people credited him for being.

As far as my boy Ito: he was basically a lightweight at best competing against largely heavyweights. And he still managed to win a Neo-Blood championship...so I'd say he was definitely a bona fide beast. Kimura actually won what was the equivalent of an MMA-type of tournament in SAW, where they had open-handed strikes and kicks, though no ground striking. I think he was basically a very good amateur athlete who got a deer in the headlights moment when the spotlight found him. If you're interested, I have quite a bit of SAW footage thanks to a Japanese friend, including Ito's performances and much of Kimura's stuff. The only caveat is that it will take some digging.

Combat Wrestling did have heavier guys; for example, Tatsuya Mizuno competed for them as did Izuru Takeuchi, who won like a billion Combat Wrestling tournaments. There were a number of bigger guys who were pretty impressive; this one dude who was a coach at Kiguchi Dojo was really good, I can't remember his name, but he had beautiful entries.

 

[Kforcer]

What you say is definitely true though; Ken competing in SAW would've been a massive conflict of interests and seen as lowering the prestige of Pancrase and elevating SAW. I think especially because SAW had started co-promoting with "lesser" promotions like Battlarts, SWS etc.

BTW--there's one old school Pancrase guy that definitely threw his hat into the Combat Wrestling arena, a gaijin no less: Gregory Smitt! Maybe Shammy didn't want none of the Smit-meister.

 

[Bullitt68]

BTW--there's one old school Pancrase guy that definitely threw his hat into the Combat Wrestling arena, a gaijin no less: Gregory Smitt! Maybe Shammy didn't want none of the Smit-meister.

Haha, he was one of those tomato can white boys who were constantly chewed up and spit out by the Japanese catch wizards. That 2-11 record for Smit is brutal (though more brutal is the fact that Vernon White actually lost to him). Smit, Todd Bjornethun, James Mathews, Andre Van Den Oetelaar, Thomas Puckett, Alex Cook. Where did they find those guys? A couple of them literally never won a match! Just live bodies to sharpen their skills on

 

[Highway99]

Tom Puckett trained under Karl Gotch for period of time...He passed away a few years ago.

 

[Kforcer]

Tom Puckett trained under Karl Gotch for period of time...He passed away a few years ago.

Yeap, I corresponded with him on Facebook a little bit. Some dude affiliated with Cecchine took some shots at him as a means of disparaging Karl Gotch's abilities. I was actually influenced by Cecchine's material, but that was pretty dumb and jackal-like, though who knows if Cecchine had anything to do with it.

 

[Highway99]

Yeap, I corresponded with him on Facebook a little bit. Some dude affiliated with Cecchine took some shots at him as a means of disparaging Karl Gotch's abilities. I was actually influenced by Cecchine's material, but that was pretty dumb and jackal-like, though who knows if Cecchine had anything to do with it.

Ah, thats pretty shitty...Once Gotch moved to Florida I don't know how extensively he was training anyone. I know that Japanese wrestlers would come for a short while and leave, but I don't know how long term his students trained with him.

 

[Kforcer]

Haha, he was one of those tomato can white boys who were constantly chewed up and spit out by the Japanese catch wizards. That 2-11 record for Smit is brutal (though more brutal is the fact that Vernon White actually lost to him). Smit, Todd Bjornethun, James Mathews, Andre Van Den Oetelaar, Thomas Puckett, Alex Cook. Where did they find those guys? A couple of them literally never won a match! Just live bodies to sharpen their skills on

Yeah, it was funny seeing him in the middle of a Combat Wrestling DVD, but you really do have to admire Smit's gameness. He was subbed pretty painfully in the tournament but a second later he was his smiling self once again. He was actually a pretty good amateur wrestler, at least on the Australian-level and apparently did some training under Karl Gotch.

 

[Kforcer]

Ah, thats pretty shitty...Once Gotch moved to Florida I don't know how extensive he was training anyone. I know that Japanese wrestlers would come for a short while and leave, but I don't know how long term his students trained with him.

Yeah, Ryuta Sakurai was one of the dudes that came and visited I know. He left with a pretty mean DWL too, it seems like. I think Carl Malenko might've been the last one he really gave the full treatment to. Carl Malenko said he really used crossface the crap out of him. There's a guy in Detroit that trained with Carl Malenko and Karl Gotch, he refereed a grappling tournament I competed in. I know that one thing is that Gotch generally made you go through all his physical training first before he showed you anything grappling-related.

One thing I find sad is that his lock-flow has been so influential, being the basis for the lock-flow Sayama taught which then disseminated into the world via Yori Nakamura, Erik Paulson etc. and via Fujiwara's instruction and all his students that passed that knowledge on, but its never been captured on camera and actually, at least one of his students basically said he wouldn't show it to anyone unless they passed the physical tests Gotch would've demanded of someone. You can get a sense of what it was like if you look at the commonalities between Fujiwara, Sayama and other Gotch proteges in their instructional material, but it would be very interesting to see the thing in and of itself...but it seems like its basically going to be lost to time.

But yeah, the shots taken at Puckett were definitely crappy and cowardly. Its always easy to tear someone down from the cheap seats. A similar thing happened with Billy Wick's student Johnny Huskey from the same group. Lame stuff.

 

[TheMaster]

I said prime, which you saw, yet you still had to throw this in there.

Yes, it needs to be there as it's hard facts. Ken doesn't get a magic pass just because we decided his prime began 1-2 years later.

Prime Ken is the one who scared Royce into doing absolutely nothing for 30 minutes and then blew up his face on the feet.

This is a major, unashamed reversal of historic interpretation, even by your giddy devotionalism fanboy standards.

So let's be very clear; it was the consensus at the time, shared also by the commentary team during the fight, that Ken was using a guard neutralizer to stay in top control but be minimally active because he was terrified of getting subbed again. As the commentators said "Ken is fighting for thr draw". It was a major victory for Ken, to get the draw with Royce at the time and prove he could survive in the guard; Royce and the GJJ had the mystique still and were considered unbeatable for 70 years. Ken was the underdog, the b-side, despite his size and strength advantage.
Also as is very clear, the guy who got subbed in less than a minute was the guy who was terrified of getting subbed again, not the other way around.

Ken's punch on the feet in overtime, made Royce look far worse off for the entire contest than it actually reflected.

And just to put the final nail in the coffin, and bury your attempt at historical gaslighting of reality, Kens own father Bob, was reportedly furious and embarrassed at Kens performance and timidity and shouted at Ken: "If you're just going to lay on top of him like that, why don't you just go ahead and kiss him".

Not really. Everyone who knows anything about Pancrase knows the second Suzuki fight was a work. The first one is an allegation, and one that I wouldn't be too surprised to learn was in fact a work. And the second Funaki fight was Ken giving Funaki a boost after his surprise loss to Ken's new Lion's Den guy Jason Delucia. That fight was also a mere eight days before Ken was going to be competing in UFC 3, and having already missed UFC 2 because of a broken hand suffered in training courtesy of Vernon White, there was no way in hell Ken was missing a second UFC, so there was no way he takes that fight unless he knew he wouldn't get hurt.

Thanks for confirming its mainly hypthetical speculation from you.
Did Ken ever get badly in hurt in Pancrase? I can see him taking a Pancrase fight which has been called "slap boxing with boots and submissions" before a UFC card because there was way less chance of getting hurt like in the UFC, and he was someone who met his obligations and in Japan I doubt he had a choice to pull out like you imply.

It says a lot worse for Severn who was so terrified of Ken that he avoided him until he could minimize the total amount of time he'd be under threat of submission, and he still failed to secure a TD despite his wrestling pedigree, and he only won because he GNP'd while Ken respected the rules laid down beforehand, which he did for understandable reasons.

Those reasons were not comprehensible in light of the Frye fight earlier.

But, as always, no matter what's going on, it's always 100% Ken's fault.

They share the blame for this one but Ken takes more flack. Severn was always a pure grappler. Ken had done kickboxing and even had the nickname "One punch Ken" earlier in his career. So his sudden decision to be incapable of striking on the feet makes less sense.

Even more bizarre was that even if they supposedly were following the rules of no closed fists despite Frye showing it was irrelevant earlier in the night, Ken didnt even throw open hand palm strikes standing up, something he had had extensive training and experience with from Pancrase. Hell, it would have been a superb chance to exhibit lesser seen palm striking skills in the UFC but alas, Ken chose to circle and dance, and then was given a brief beatdown on the ground and deservedly lost.

 

[Bullitt68]

Yes, it needs to be there as it's hard facts. Ken doesn't get a magic pass just because we decided his prime began 1-2 years later.

I know that you like to argue just to argue, so before we even bother doing this, do you consider Ken's prime to be two months into his career and his first NHB experience? Because if you don't even consider the beginning of Ken's career to be his prime, then what are you arguing this stupid point for?

This is a major, unashamed reversal of historic interpretation

No, it isn't.

So let's be very clear; it was the consensus at the time, shared also by the commentary team during the fight, that Ken was using a guard neutralizer to stay in top control but be minimally active because he was terrified of getting subbed again.

Please, oh pretty please, give me a time stamp from UFC 5 when the commentary team talked about how Ken was using a "guard neutralizer" - did you just make this up? or is it the name of a type of laser gun you saw in some sci-fi movie? - because he was terrified of Royce. This, my frequent arguing-for-the-sake-of-arguing interlocutor, is what making up bullshit looks and sounds like. In reality, Ken went right into Royce's guard and dared him to try to submit him, the same way at UFC 6 he shot in on Severn and locked up with him to dare him to throw him. Ken was very candid about his game plans in both of those fights. Ken always had a chip on his shoulder, he always had something to prove. Royce was the submission wizard? Fine, I'll sit in his guard and show him that he doesn't have shit. Severn was the beastly wrestler? Fine, I'll tie up with him and show him that he doesn't have shit. Ken was going to sit in Royce's guard and dare him to submit him to prove that the first fight was a fluke. And since Royce didn't have the element of surprise on his side the second time around, he attempted exactly zero submissions outside of that lame Ezekiel choke that Ken slammed his way out of in two seconds. Royce was the submission magician, the guard was the death knell for all fighters, Ken sat right where Royce ostensibly wanted him for half an hour and Royce didn't say boo. No sweeps, no kimuras, no armbars, no omoplatas, no triangles, no nothing. Royce did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING even though Ken went RIGHT WHERE HE WANTED HIM. Yet you have never once acknowledged this. Not once. Will today be the day?

Also as is very clear, the guy who got subbed in less than a minute was the guy who was terrified of getting subbed again, not the other way around.

If you want to know what it looks like when someone's terrified of being submitted, watch Severn avoid Ken for almost the entire regulation period in their UFC 9 rematch. If Ken had been afraid of Royce's guard, he wouldn't have shot in on Royce in the first 20 seconds and spent the entire fight sitting in his guard. That's not someone who's scared. That's someone who's NOT scared who's got something to prove. But Royce was too scared to engage, so he didn't, for more than half an hour. Yet it's all Ken's fault. How can you swallow such BS?

Ken's punch on the feet in overtime, made Royce look far worse off for the entire contest than it actually reflected.

It reflected that Ken was the only one who had any significant offense, and that coupled with Royce having to be carried out of the cage by his family while Ken was fresh as a daisy walking around the cage and being applauded by the crowd...well, everyone but you knows what it reflected.

And just to put the final nail in the coffin, and bury your attempt at historical gaslighting of reality, Ken own father Bob, was reportedly furious and embarrassed at Kens performance and timidity

We've done this dance many times already. How is it not sinking in? How are people capable of literally turning their brains off? No shit Ken's dad wanted to see him pulverize Royce. He was also pissed at Ken for withdrawing from the UFC 3 tournament when he found out that Royce had withdrawn because he cared about rematching Royce, not beating Harold Howard and winning the tournament. That has nothing to do with anything and in no universe provides any nails for any coffins, except inside your very thick skull.

Did Ken ever get badly in hurt in Pancrase? I can see him taking a Pancrase fight which has been called "slap boxing with boots and submissions" before a UFC card because there was way less chance of getting hurt like in the UFC, and he was someone who met his obligations and in Japan I doubt he had a choice to pull out like you imply.

Put yourself in Ken's position. You got choked out by some schmo doing shit you never saw or heard of. You're the #1 shootfighter in Japan, you tapped Masakatsu Funaki in the main event of the inaugural Pancrase show, and yet this skinny little Brazilian kid choked you out in a minute in this crazy new event in Denver. You're consumed with revenge. You can't wait to redeem yourself and get a rematch. But then you break your hand in training. You have to sit in the stands at UFC 2 and watch Royce win again. You're stuck on the sidelines, fuming, dreaming of your chance at redemption. UFC 3 comes around...sure, fuck it, I'll rematch Funaki, one of the best guys in Pancrase, a week before I rematch Royce.



You can continue to project and tell me that I'm cherry-picking my own revisionist history while you cherry-pick history at every turn. But no way Ken steps into a ring 8 days out from Royce II without knowing that he wouldn't get hurt, especially not after he'd already missed out on a chance to get his revenge because he'd gotten hurt.

Those reasons were not comprehensible in light of the Frye fight earlier.

Oh, it's been well-established that you're not good at comprehending things, but Ken's position is easily comprehensible.

They share the blame for this one but Ken takes more flack. Severn was always a pure grappler. Ken had done kickboxing and even had the nickname "One punch Ken" earlier in his career. So his sudden decision to be incapable of striking on the feet makes less sense.

He wasn't incapable, he heard that competitors who broke the rules laid down by the court were potentially going to be fined or even jailed, and so he elected to observe those rules, not just because he didn't want to go to jail - which was absolutely a possibility since the same month as UFC 9 eight fighters and promoters connected to Extreme Challenge were arrested in Montreal after an event - but because he was starting to become a role model and had just spent a day with the Windsor Boys and Girls club and couldn't stomach the idea of kids who look up to him seeing him behind bars or in handcuffs. He didn't trust that the SEG "compromise" was worth the risk, so he decided to obey the rules that had been laid down. He didn't suddenly forget how to punch and nobody has ever said anything that stupid, except you.

Even more bizarre was that even if they supposedly were following the rules of no closed fists despite Frye showing it was irrelevant earlier in the night, Ken didnt even throw open hand palm strikes standing up, something he had had extensive training and experience with from Pancrase. Hell, it would have been a superb chance to exhibit lesser seen palm striking skills in the UFC but alas, Ken chose to circle and dance, and then was given a brief beatdown on the ground and deservedly lost.

Ken neither circled nor danced. He stood in the center of the cage and watched Severn avoid him for nearly the entire fight. And then when Severn finally engaged, Ken thwarted his TD and spent five minutes in the mount. And he still only lost a split decision...in Dan's hometown...after he got cut open by some GNP in the 60 seconds of offense Severn actually managed to offer. But you've already made your position very clear that you'll always blame Ken more for everything, even what you can't comprehend.

 

[TheMaster]

do you consider Ken's prime to be two months into his career and his first NHB experience? Because if you don't even consider the beginning of Ken's career to be his prime, then what are you arguing this stupid point for?

I said it was about a year or two out of his prime. He was in his athletic prime though at 29 years old when he fought Royce the first time, and was versed enough in catch to have subbed one of his teachers Funaki 2 months earlier. It counts and must be considered in any evaluation of Ken. Ken is 0-2-1 with the much smaller Royce.

Please, oh pretty please, give me a time stamp from UFC 5 when the commentary team talked about how Ken was using a "guard neutralizer" - did you just make this up?

The commentary team were not proficient in submission grappling to use this terminology but we can call it that now. The commentary team did accurately say "You think Ken is fighting for the draw?" And agreed among themselves that he was.

In reality, Ken went right into Royce's guard and dared him to try to submit him, the same way at UFC 6 he shot in on Severn and locked up with him to dare him to throw him. Ken was very candid about his game plans in both of those fights. Ken always had a chip on his shoulder, he always had something to prove. Royce was the submission wizard? Fine, I'll sit in his guard and show him that he doesn't have shit.

No, my giddy-with-devotionalism-fanboy, that's not how it went down at all.
Yes, Ken had a chip on his shoulder. But he lacked the confidence in his ability to be able to mount any kind of offence or advance position. He was terrified that if he so much as tried to raise his arm to throw a punch from on top or tried to move to a better position, his arm would get snapped or he would het caught in some unknown gi choke (Ken has also claimed that gi chokes should have been illegal and were a weapon, and was petrified of them).

Yes, he had something to prove to himself - that he could survive in the guard. That was the victory for Ken. Of course, surviving when you are 40 Ibs heavier from top position and mount no offence is hardly considered an achievement today, but at the time it was.
This is the almost universally held opinion, which you, alone, seem oblivious to.

Ken was going to sit in Royce's guard and dare him to submit him to prove that the first fight was a fluke. And since Royce didn't have the element of surprise on his side the second time around, he attempted exactly zero submissions outside of that lame Ezekiel choke that Ken slammed his way out of in two seconds. Royce was the submission magician, the guard was the death knell for all fighters, Ken sat right where Royce ostensibly wanted him for half an hour and Royce didn't say boo. No sweeps, no kimuras, no armbars, no omoplatas, no triangles, no nothing. Royce did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING even though Ken went RIGHT WHERE HE WANTED HIM. Yet you have never once acknowledged this. Not once. Will today be the day?

Ken buried his head in Royce's chest, tucked his arms and legs into a turtle and held on with the thought "If I do this and keep holding, dang nothing bad should happen to me". He was terrified of doing anything that could create an opening for Royce. This is why there was no GnP, no attempt to advance position.
Where Coleman invented GnP, Ken pioneered Lay n Pray in this fight. And in case you don't know, the guy outweighed by 40 Ibs needs some movement or offence to work from, not the other way around.

If you want to know what it looks like when someone's terrified of being submitted,

Watch Ken in Royce's guard in the second fight.

If Ken had been afraid of Royce's guard, he wouldn't have shot in on Royce in the first 20 seconds and spent the entire fight sitting in his guard. That's not someone who's scared. That's someone who's NOT scared who's got something to prove.

It's someone terrified to engage, who just wants to prove to himself he can survive the position.

But Royce was too scared to engage, so he didn't, for more than half an hour. Yet it's all Ken's fault. How can you swallow such BS?

Lmao, Royce who subbed Ken in less than 60 seconds, was the one terrified to engage. Sure. Not Ken who was terrified of Gi chokes and submission skills he had no idea of. Even you, in some blocked off part of he mind don't believe this.

It reflected that Ken was the only one who had any significant offense, and that coupled with Royce having to be carried out of the cage by his family

An exaggeration

while Ken was fresh as a daisy walking around the cage and being applauded by the crowd...

Ken was overjoyed yes. He survived and got the time limit draw he went in for. Royce knew Ken could hide behind the clock which is what he did.

Royce. He was also pissed at Ken for withdrawing from the UFC 3 tournament when he found out that Royce had withdrawn because he cared about rematching Royce, not beating Harold Howard and winning the tournament. That has nothing to do with anything and in no universe provides any nails for any coffins

Wow, you are persistent in this delusion. When the zombie is attempting to come out of the coffin, a shotgun blast is needed.

Ken own father, who was cageside was embarrassed, ashamed and furious at Kens total lack of offence. He literally told Ken to kiss Royce if he was just going to hug him and lay in the missionary position, it was that bad. Let that sink in. He wasn't cheering him on to smash Royce more. He was literally telling him to do something , because it looking to him more like a romance than a fight at that point.

Put yourself in Ken's position. You got choked out by some schmo doing shit you never saw or heard of. You're the #1 shootfighter in Japan....no way Ken steps into a ring 8 days out from Royce II without knowing that he wouldn't get hurt, especially not after he'd already missed out on a chance to get his revenge because he'd gotten hurt.

Like I said, Ken probably had little say in it and wanted to keep his job and career in Japan. Your theory is possible I give you that but not conclusive.He may just not have seen Pancrase as high injury risk contest.

Ken neither circled nor danced. He stood in the center of the cage and watched Severn avoid him for nearly the entire fight. And then when Severn finally engaged, Ken thwarted his TD and spent five minutes in the mount. And he still only lost a split decision...in Dan's hometown...after he got cut open by some GNP in the 60 seconds of offense Severn actually managed to offer

I see you ducked the observation that even if Ken had concerns about the committee, he could have and should have thrown palm strike city, literally the striking discipline in his main combat org that was legal in this fight, but chose not to.
I await your reversal about how Knes failure to engage and throw palms was actually Severns fault.

 

[Kforcer]

On the subjet of Ken and what sort of credit he deserves: The K-guard should definitely be called the F-guard instead of the K-guard for Masakatsu Funaki's frequent use and innovation of it in grappling, but Ken Shamrock--whom I guess Neil Melanson was largely inspired by in its use--definitely deserves credit for adapting it ably to his game and for the incredibly quick and sometimes breathtakingly beautiful transitions he made in his Pancrase career. In a lot of ways, he moved like a lightweight at his best. I think he should have called it a day following the Frye fight, it seems clear to me that, similar to say, Ruddock-Tyson or Ali-Frazier, both men left a piece of themselves in the ring that night that they never got back. Even up to that point, he was hitting flying scissor leglock entries; in the case of Frye, he did it on autopilot, when he was basically out on his feet. I think it would've been even more impactful but the live cameras didn't capture an angle that fully captured his agility and precision with the move...because Ken made the transition so quickly.

 

[Bullitt68]

I said it was about a year or two out of his prime.

So you didn't need to make the last post and you could've just said in this post, "No, you were right, I agree with you." Do you see how pathological this is?

He was in his athletic prime though at 29 years old when he fought Royce the first time, and was versed enough in catch to have subbed one of his teachers Funaki 2 months earlier. It counts and must be considered in any evaluation of Ken.

Of course it counts in his overall career. But we were talking about his prime. You brought up his prime, you specifically posted 1994-1996, and then when I bring up his prime, you bring up his first NHB experience two months into his career. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

The commentary team were not proficient in submission grappling to use this terminology but we can call it that now. The commentary team did accurately say "You think Ken is fighting for the draw?" And agreed among themselves that he was.

Well, they said it, so it must be true.

No, my giddy-with-devotionalism-fanboy, that's not how it went down at all.

Yes, it did, but you'll never accept it, and no matter what I say, you'll keep harping on the same BS, as evidenced by the fact that we've done this dance many times before, so what's the point in continuing?

On the subjet of Ken and what sort of credit he deserves: The K-guard should definitely be called the F-guard instead of the K-guard for Masakatsu Funaki's frequent use and innovation of it in grappling, but Ken Shamrock--whom I guess Neil Melanson was largely inspired by in its use--definitely deserves credit for adapting it ably to his game and for the incredibly quick and sometimes breathtakingly beautiful transitions he made in his Pancrase career. In a lot of ways, he moved like a lightweight at his best. I think he should have called it a day following the Frye fight, it seems clear to me that, similar to say, Ruddock-Tyson or Ali-Frazier, both men left a piece of themselves in the ring that night that they never got back. Even up to that point, he was hitting flying scissor leglock entries; in the case of Frye, he did it on autopilot, when he was basically out on his feet. I think it would've been even more impactful but the live cameras didn't capture an angle that fully captured his agility and precision with the move...because Ken made the transition so quickly.

It's tough because he was so important to MMA becoming mainstream. It's hard to imagine an alternate universe where there was no UFC 40 Tito fight or TUF 1 finale headliner against Franklin. But just for Ken's individual legacy, I think that he would've been best-served to have retired after Kimo II. He was healthy post-Frye and post-Tito - his knees were already so bad in the Frye fight that he literally couldn't shoot a TD, which is why he did that scissor leglock entry, and then against Tito his knee was completely shot and he was literally a one-legged man in an ass kicking contest - he was back at HW, he headlined another UFC, he squared off against a fellow old schooler, he scored a first-round KO, the event was on Father's Day and Bob was in the crowd for the shout-out...sort of a fairy tale ending.

 

[TheMaster]

we've done this dance many times before, so what's the point in continuing?

I dont think we've ever discussed this point regards Ken-Severn II

Even more bizarre was that even if they supposedly were following the rules of no closed fists despite Frye showing it was irrelevant earlier in the night, Ken didnt even throw open hand palm strikes standing up, something he had had extensive training and experience with from Pancrase. Hell, it would have been a superb chance to exhibit lesser seen palm striking skills in the UFC but alas, Ken chose to circle and dance

I see you ducked the observation that even if Ken had concerns about the committee, he could have and should have thrown palm strike city, literally the striking discipline in his main combat org that was legal in this fight, but chose not to.

You've ducked responding to this observation twice now, likely because there is literally no defence here for Ken. However it at least shows that you are someone who likes to pick your battles carefully with regards arguing/distorting history in Kens favour, and when you have no chance of doing so you will just run. This question clearly has you spooked. So be it.

 

[Bullitt68]

I dont think we've ever discussed this point regards Ken-Severn II



You've ducked responding to this observation twice now, likely because there is literally no defence here for Ken. However it at least shows that you are someone who likes to pick your battles carefully with regards arguing/distorting history in Kens favour, and when you have no chance of doing so you will just run. This question clearly has you spooked. So be it.

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"Ducked"? You've been on this site for 22 years. I'd guess you're at least 35 years old, probably much older than that, yet you talk like a 12-year-old. I already know that nothing will come of this discussion. Your mind is already made up. Literally every single time you engage me in conversation, you do nothing but shit on Ken. It's boring. We don't have real conversations. I provide information, you ignore it. It won't matter to you when I tell you that Ken used palm strikes, elbows, and punches to the body. You'll say "Blah blah Pancrase blah" and then ignore Severn's clear statement "I came up with my strategy of how am I gonna piss off 10,000 people in an arena. And guess what, I succeeded. I pissed off all these fans watching" and continue to blame Ken for everything.