Economy The Capitalism Crumble

[Natural Order]

what, like there aren't working people there? bit of a bizarre take there bro, IME 'lefties' start off with 'the good of the working classes' as the primary goal, or if they don't they fucking should and should stop being considered lefties at all. Even, or actually especially, in Temples of Capitalism and Consumption (which i take is your point that there's an implicit contradiction?), there is a potential to increase equality. Or being more realistic maybe start with decreasing inequality. Do 'lefties' just forget about waitresses and cleaners just because they happen to be serving millionaire gamblers? I may have mistook your meaning I guess.

It's hilarious that you'd use a place literally representing the complete opposite worldview for such a discussion.

Vegas is a cesspool of nonsense. Trying to impart reasonable principles in a city of sin is like punching yourself in the face.

 

[IanEdwards]

It's hilarious that you'd use a place literally representing the complete opposite worldview for such a discussion.

Vegas is a cesspool of nonsense. Trying to impart reasonable principles in a city of sin is like punching yourself in the face.

yeah, I just don't agree. 'City of sin' is just labelling the particular commercial activity there, and a pretty old-fashioned, 1950s labelling at that. Gambling a 'sin', jeez dude, the Mormons moved out of Vegas a long time ago. What else there is 'sin', the stag parties getting drunk 24/7? 'Lefties' in the proper sense look at abstractions like 'sin' as being weird hangovers from the time when religion actually was able to dictate the way people lived. Absent that, and what you are left with is still capitalism/commerce, whether it peddles in 'sinful' or 'chaste' activities. A corporation isn't any more at odds with its labour force if it produces wholesome children's movies than if it stages large-scale gambling, extraction of surplus value and prioritization of shareholders over workers happens in both of them just the same. Weird take IMO my brother but I like you and its all good

 

[Cid]

It's a tough conversation to have when the top 5% already pay for 60% of all income tax.....

As tough as having to explain wealth and income are two very different things?

That most billionaires income isn't large enough to put them in the top 5?


Doubtful.

 

[Natural Order]

As tough as having to explain wealth and income are two very different things?

That most billionaires income isn't large enough to put them in the top 5?


Doubtful.

Draw me the lines, numerically, oh wise one…

Edit - make sure to clearly state your solution for unrealized gains homie!

 

[Mock Artwork]

Capitalism = fine & natural
Corporatism = subjection & parameters
Neo-Distributism = the way

All economics deals with finite resources. Capitalism is as natural as the hills and streams. Corporatism is the virus infecting it.

 

[Natural Order]

yeah, I just don't agree. 'City of sin' is just labelling the particular commercial activity there, and a pretty old-fashioned, 1950s labelling at that. Gambling a 'sin', jeez dude, the Mormons moved out of Vegas a long time ago. What else there is 'sin', the stag parties getting drunk 24/7? 'Lefties' in the proper sense look at abstractions like 'sin' as being weird hangovers from the time when religion actually was able to dictate the way people lived. Absent that, and what you are left with is still capitalism/commerce, whether it peddles in 'sinful' or 'chaste' activities. A corporation isn't any more at odds with its labour force if it produces wholesome children's movies than if it stages large-scale gambling, extraction of surplus value and prioritization of shareholders over workers happens in both of them just the same. Weird take IMO my brother but I like you and its all good

Money from sin is the first og grift of capitalism lol! Its funny where the leftist mind likes to draw lines from day to day. Or deal with semantics rather than the root.

Or did you think continuing to act like bonobos was the best plan for our species?

 

[IanEdwards]

Money from sin is the first og grift of capitalism lol! Its funny where the leftist mind likes to draw lines from day to day. Or deal with semantics rather than the root.

Or did you think continuing to act like bonobos was the best plan for our species?

You see a contradiction between a 'leftist' wanting fair treatment *even for people employed in Las Vegas, a city supposedly based on 'sin', a category I don't even accept as a separate sphere of the economy deserving of its own rules and treatment*, I don't. Perhaps if you set out the lines you think I am drawing and the reason they are mere semantics rather than substantive we might go somewhere, but i can't really reply to a post without its own argument and the above doesn't give me much hope of dialogue. whatever, like I say, its all good.

 

[Sinister]

It's a tough conversation to have when the top 5% already pay for 60% of all income tax.....

It's a funny conversation to see a lefty concerned about a place like Vegas.....lmfao

I live here, but wherever I am I care about my community.

Also, the top 5% pay 61% of personal income tax. But that could be a misleading characteristic because that 5% pertains to an AGI of ~$262k per year. That's why a top marginal tax rate on dollars is important because it would specifically pertain to the wealth-hoarders.

That being said if we're going to say the taxes that are already there are mis-managed, you wont get any argument out of me. I'm just tired of tax cuts for the wealthy being an entire party platform when we only have 2 of them.

 

[Sinister]

Capitalism = fine & natural
Corporatism = subjection & parameters
Neo-Distributism = the way

All economics deals with finite resources. Capitalism is as natural as the hills and streams. Corporatism is the virus infecting it.

Claiming singular ownership of hills and streams isnt really natural. Humans didnt view territory this way until agriculture grew gigantic and monarchs forced people to farm for them without paying them.

In fact the US was built on that notion. Once the Europeans learned how to farm here and realized the Natives didnt view land as belonging to them, but them belonging to land, the Eyropeans felt it was perfectly fine to lay claim (because God said it was ok), kill the indigenous, and then import forced labor.

 

[Natural Order]

I live here, but wherever I am I care about my community.

Also, the top 5% pay 61% of personal income tax. But that could be a misleading characteristic because that 5% pertains to an AGI of ~$262k per year. That's why a top marginal tax rate on dollars is important because it would specifically pertain to the wealth-hoarders.

That being said if we're going to say the taxes that are already there are mis-managed, you wont get any argument out of me. I'm just tired of tax cuts for the wealthy being an entire party platform when we only have 2 of them.

I get that. And while I may not agree with a lot of your positions politically or socially, I can commend your effort and caring. That's way more than most people on either side typically do.

I find it hilariious that a person of your supposed worldview and character could exist in a place like that though! Talk about swimming upstream!

 

[Sinister]

You see a contradiction between a 'leftist' wanting fair treatment *even for people employed in Las Vegas, a city supposedly based on 'sin', a category I don't even accept as a separate sphere of the economy deserving of its own rules and treatment*, I don't. Perhaps if you set out the lines you think I am drawing and the reason they are mere semantics rather than substantive we might go somewhere, but i can't really reply to a post without its own argument and the above doesn't give me much hope of dialogue. whatever, like I say, its all good.

People gambled LONG before religion came along and classed it as a "sin." But gambling isn't a sin, and I dont think gambling itself is even mentioned in the Bible. The sin is greed. But isnt it interesting that gambling gets labeled "greed" but Church prosperity is not? Enriching of the heirarchy isn't? Passing around that collection plate in a giant building where nothing is taxed isn't? Hell they're even getting political now and still maintaining their tax exemptions, which is against a foundation principal of this Country.

Vegas wasnt specifically built on greed, it was built on hope. The idea that a nobody could become a somebody overnight. Its suffering now because its catering to greed, trying to appease those who already have too much and forgetting who built it. And the other sin associated with us is prostitution, but that's not legal in Vegas. Clark County has it outlawed, you have to go outside County limits.

To me, it serves Church interests for gambling to be a sin because winning at gambling means a chance at actually upsetting heirarchy.

 

[Sinister]

I get that. And while I may not agree with a lot of your positions politically or socially, I can commend your effort and caring. That's way more than most people on either side typically do.

I find it hilariious that a person of your supposed worldview and character could exist in a place like that though! Talk about swimming upstream!

It's just a place. People cars, roads, houses, businesses. It's weird but it's been pretty good to me, I cant say why. Met my wife and have 3 amazing Sons. Found the confidence to pursue my chosen Profession on a level that mattered, and my clients are mostly the people here. But I do think we, as a community, need to diversify what makes us awesome, because the corporations are choosing violence. Lol They're choosing what I always expect capitalists to choose, and refusing to learn. Look at the first video of Primm. I dont want to see the Vegas Strip turned into that, and there have been spooky abandoned megalithic Casinos on the strip already. And once the large corporations check out all we have is each other. It would be nice if that didnt happen, but we'd be pretty stupid not to anticipate it and have a Plan B.

 

[Natural Order]

It's just a place. People cars, roads, houses, businesses. It's weird but it's been pretty good to me, I cant say why. Met my wife and have 3 amazing Sons. Found the confidence to pursue my chosen Profession on a level that mattered, and my clients are mostly the people here. But I do think we, as a community, need to diversify what makes us awesome, because the corporations are choosing violence. Lol They're choosing what I always expect capitalists to choose, and refusing to learn. Look at the first video of Primm. I dont want to see the Vegas Strip turned into that, and there have been spooky abandoned megalithic Casinos on the strip already. And once the large corporations check out all we have is each other. It would be nice if that didnt happen, but we'd be pretty stupid not to anticipate it and have a Plan B.

Fair points and glad things have worked out for you and the fam there.

 

[Mock Artwork]

Claiming singular ownership of hills and streams isnt really natural. Humans didnt view territory this way until agriculture grew gigantic and monarchs forced people to farm for them without paying them.

In fact the US was built on that notion. Once the Europeans learned how to farm here and realized the Natives didnt view land as belonging to them, but them belonging to land, the Eyropeans felt it was perfectly fine to lay claim (because God said it was ok), kill the indigenous, and then import forced labor.

Capitalism is inherent in trade, generic flow, distribution and cultural associations. Markets naturally develop whether you like it to or not.

While I concede that ownership of land is troubling, I only believe this in an economic sense. If everyone was entitled to the land, who arbitrates need?

The population today is much larger and resources much more scarce comparatively than they were hundreds of years ago, also. By blanketing “ownership” you will need to delegate authority (that will get abused) to manage this.

Distributism would say that large industries, like agriculture and power distribution, need a commonwealth control but private property including land should be as widely distributed as possible. IE. no corporations buying land for inhabitants.

 

[Natural Order]

You see a contradiction between a 'leftist' wanting fair treatment *even for people employed in Las Vegas, a city supposedly based on 'sin', a category I don't even accept as a separate sphere of the economy deserving of its own rules and treatment*, I don't. Perhaps if you set out the lines you think I am drawing and the reason they are mere semantics rather than substantive we might go somewhere, but i can't really reply to a post without its own argument and the above doesn't give me much hope of dialogue. whatever, like I say, its all good.

We're getting too deep.

I was just pointing out that it's not common to see a vocal leftist highly supportive of living and excelling in a city grown and maintained around the general excesses of capitalism and the worst parts about it.

 

[Darkavius]

That being said if we're going to say the taxes that are already there are mis-managed, you wont get any argument out of me. I'm just tired of tax cuts for the wealthy being an entire party platform when we only have 2 of them.

Slightly off topic but what happened to the FairTax Republicans of the late 2000's and early 2010's? They just faded into the background. That being said, it's wild to me that after seeing what society is like now (and even in this thread) there are still people making arguments for millionaires and billionaires. The idea of defending someone that owns a yacht while you budget to pay for a mortgage is insane thinking to me.

Speaking of millionaires and billionaires I was thinking should Board of Directors be abolished across the board? In many cases, especially companies on the stock market, Board of Directors are often in high level positions at other companies making a lot of money and somehow they go to another company and make additional money. That shouldn't happen, should it? I would also argue it is not fair for a competitive market. For example, if a member of J.P. Morgan Chase is on the board of another financial firm that should be a conflict of interest and not be allowed.

 

[IanEdwards]

We're getting too deep.

I was just pointing out that it's not common to see a vocal leftist highly supportive of living and excelling in a city grown and maintained around the general excesses of capitalism and the worst parts about it.

ok cool its kinda emblematic of capitalism that beneath the 'glitzy glamorous facade' of somewhere like vegas there is always the exploited toil of the workers who keep the place going.

 

[Sinister]

Capitalism is inherent in trade, generic flow, distribution and cultural associations. Markets naturally develop whether you like it to or not.

While I concede that ownership of land is troubling, I only believe this in an economic sense. If everyone was entitled to the land, who arbitrates need?

I'm not talking about mere ownership of land, I'm talking about the fundamental principal of capitalism, private ownership of means of production/resources. Not just the land...the water, and thus...the fish in it. Not just the land but the trees and thus, then fruit they bear. Not just the land, but the oil contained in it. Capitalism necessitates the procurement of these things for profit:



Not sure if you've seen that flick but the land they're discussing had oil. The bank tried to claim it with essentially no payment so they could sell it to the oil company and profit. What stood in their way? An average family owning it. That didnt stop them. It never stops them.

Capitalism isnt the mere pursuit of profit. Its ownership, and the atrocities done to cement it. Who arbitrates need? That's where democracy comes in, democracy uncorrupted by capital.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

People gambled LONG before religion came along and classed it as a "sin." But gambling isn't a sin, and I dont think gambling itself is even mentioned in the Bible. The sin is greed. But isnt it interesting that gambling gets labeled "greed" but Church prosperity is not? Enriching of the heirarchy isn't? Passing around that collection plate in a giant building where nothing is taxed isn't? Hell they're even getting political now and still maintaining their tax exemptions, which is against a foundation principal of this Country.

Vegas wasnt specifically built on greed, it was built on hope. The idea that a nobody could become a somebody overnight. Its suffering now because its catering to greed, trying to appease those who already have too much and forgetting who built it. And the other sin associated with us is prostitution, but that's not legal in Vegas. Clark County has it outlawed, you have to go outside County limits.

To me, it serves Church interests for gambling to be a sin because winning at gambling means a chance at actually upsetting heirarchy.

I'm far from being a religious scholar LOL, but I think it's not just greed, it's actually sloth that religious folks would primarily argue about gambling.

It's unlike the protestant work ethic, it's about looking for financial gain without commensurate effort/work. Gambling is largely a zero sum game of chance to attain wealth is the unethical part; that it's a "profession" that doesn't produce products of utility unlike a farmer or smith, and without a positive psychological effect that Church prosperity could be plausibly defended with. So it's in effect a parasitic occupation/behavior. If we go back to when the texts were written a religion/society based on practical work effort would outperform one filled with folks looking to get rich through gambling efforts - which is IMO where the genuine interest at the time lay.

Gambling really doesn't upset heirarchy in any meaningful way. The house always wins provided there's enough "action", it accentuates hierarchy as it invariable transfers wealth upwards, even if like a tiny fraction of folks actually are able to make a highly profitable living out of it, but that's rare much like lotto winners. I always tell people to invest money instead of gamble it (since investing isn't a zero sum game but one of expected positive returns) .... of course I am just dismissed as a nerd for saying that haha.

 

[Sinister]

The population today is much larger and resources much more scarce comparatively than they were hundreds of years ago, also. By blanketing “ownership” you will need to delegate authority (that will get abused) to manage this.

Distributism would say that large industries, like agriculture and power distribution, need a commonwealth control but private property including land should be as widely distributed as possible. IE. no corporations buying land for inhabitants.

Sorry I didn't see this part. Does capitalism not also lend to abusive authority? I mean I can think of dozens of instances where it does. I'm not under the illusion that there are perfect systems. I just dont buy into the cybucal view that "people are always going to pursue profit and ownership so..." There are more people out there who are humble and can recognize when they have more than enough versus those who need 8 supercars and 3 giant boats. I keep referring to capitalism as a religion for a reason. According to religion they are also appealing to human nature, the human nature we have to have faith even when it requires suspending logic. It's true we do have this, but many view this as an exploitable trait. There has to be balance to these things, otherwise we end up making conscious horrible decisions to destroy each other and dont wake up until we see the destruction in the wake of it.