Economy The Capitalism Crumble

[Aegon Spengler]

state capitalism. private gains for the benefit of the state. very similar to the economy under hitler, though there's more social welfare under xi than hitler.

It’s funny, they call themselves communists for propaganda purposes… and the USA calls them communists for (very different) propaganda purposes… but they aren’t really communists upon any close analysis

 

[Sinister]

After spending time in China, I can only see China as China. It's its own thing, a world in a country. I've never really heard anyone describe it in a way that does the experience of being there a helpful way of understanding it.

I got offered to Coach in China a few years back. I regret not taking it but my wife was adamant about not living in China.

 

[Gamer2k4]

That would depend on the details of how he lost the money, but typically under this system you can claim the losses against future taxes and against gains in other areas. So you don’t get a direct refund but you do get tax credits or offsets against sister companies etc.

If you tax the gain but refund the loss, aren't you just breaking even?

That's why a wealth tax can't work. Either it's unfair because it only goes one way, or it's pointless because it goes both ways.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

If you tax the gain but refund the loss, aren't you just breaking even?

That's why a wealth tax can't work. Either it's unfair because it only goes one way, or it's pointless because it goes both ways.

It would go year by year, so you’re paying based on yearly increases, and you wouldn’t get a full refund only partial. It’s more than fair, if you’re benefiting the most from the system you pay more for its upkeep.

Frankly it’s fair for it to go “one way” - most billionaires get their money from private equity games, speculating on market currencies etc. They move money and get tax breaks or otherwise tend to win government contracts.

Even in the case of franchises, Wall Mart comes to town and there go all the small businesses owned by people in the community, the money is leeched out to a central point. For the most part billionaires are a result of draining local economic resources.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

I got offered to Coach in China a few years back. I regret not taking it but my wife was adamant about not living in China.

Haha, yeah, I had a lot of people express concerns about me; preconceived notions are very strong. How I expected China to "feel" was different than expected. Actually, oddly enough, in many ways, Singapore felt like how I expected China to feel. It definitely takes some getting use to and I can fully understand how many folks might not have good experiences (nothing there is designed to be friendly to tourists in terms of language and logistics, though I do recall being in a city that had a banner in public reminding people to be kind to tourists), but I sure as hell would love to go back except for all the fricken paperwork required.





Anyhow, how times change, one of my mates goes occasionally for work and not long ago he said to me he was more concerned about being able to get back into the U.S. than he was about going there.

 

[KeepingItReal]

This has been on my mind for a long time. As indoctrinees into the religion of capitalism we are always assured this is THE most efficient and most prosperous economic model. When I was a kid and the US still had some pride in our manufacturing, we were even assured that the great American Corporation was the Savior of our well-being, so much so that a President based his entire economic policy on giving them tax breaks, massive subsidies, the ability to pursue cheap labor overseas, we were told to just give these people all our money and they would be generous enough to trickle-down enough of it to make us whole (but not TOO whole, we dont want to spoil ourselves).

I moved to Vegas about a year after joining this forum. In pursuing my career I ended up in a lot of places that were inaccessible to the version of myself that was in Florida. One of my favorite early experiences was being backstage with my stablemate and former 130lb Title Holder Sharif Bogere as he fought on an ESPN card. The event was poppin', we got comped at the buffet, staff was great. This was held at the Buffalo Bill's Star Arena in Primm, Nevada:



This is Primm now:



Since moving here Ive always heard that Vegas is a good barometer for what's going on in ths Country economically over all, because we depend largely on people.having disposable income. We depend on consumer confidence. When I got here cost of living was low and pay was high, because the Casinos catered to locals and middle-class families. Deals were a-plenty. Locals got half off show prices, and NEVER charged for parking. Now it seems cost of living is higher and pay has stagnated, so what's going on with the corporations, with the Casinos who can essentially do whatever they want here?



Like every great American corporation, combinations of greed, stupidity, and stubbornness are contributing to their downfalls on real time. They aimed at the rich, neglected the people who built the town and kept it alive through multiple economic crashes, and are now suffering the consequences. Not to mention a Government not-so-friendly to international business (I'm experiencing this in my own industry, many international fighters are going to train in Mexico as opposed to coming here) because its both easier AND cheaper.

Here it's going like this:

- rooms are more expensive AND smaller
- service is colder
- food and drinks are triple-priced
- little to no comps
- payouts are less frequent
- layoffs are high, and nonsensical layoffs like long-term executive chefs
- one of the highest unemployment rates in the US
- homelessness increasing
- grosheries (as per JD Vance) high
- gas trended up recently

All that said yes we are more fortunate than say, a different Country currently under economic embargo. However give the amount of economic decimation that is now more highly visible because of YouTube, there is no denying that there is something inherently wrong with capitalism. And its not "crony capitalism"...if you didnt account for cronyism in a system where money has always influenced elections then guy failed to understand capitalism from the beginning.



You wanna live here?

If a city built on degeneracy crumbles I don't see the problem. I don't care if it's a capitalist, socialist or communist city, may it crumble for good.

 

[nostradumbass]

No.

"The percentage of state-owned businesses in China varies by metric, but as of 2024, state-owned enterprises (SOEs) account for the majority of the largest listed companies by market capitalization. They also represent 71% of China's Fortune 500 companies and 84% of the assets of top companies. However, when considering all registered firms, the picture is more complex, as nearly 867,000 firms have some level of state ownership, and the total capital of these firms represents a large share of the economy."

SOEs are about 25% of GDP and 20% of employment, and the level of state ownership of those SOEs varies.

 

[Sinister]

If a city built on degeneracy crumbles I don't see the problem. I don't care if it's a capitalist, socialist or communist city, may it crumble for good.

Okay, cool

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

It’s funny, they call themselves communists for propaganda purposes… and the USA calls them communists for (very different) propaganda purposes… but they aren’t really communists upon any close analysis

they used to be!

 

[Sinister]

SOEs are about 25% of GDP and 20% of employment, and the level of state ownership of those SOEs varies.

Its 25%-40% depending on the study. And that puts it close to their manufacturing which is responsible for a lot of their GDP growth. They're heavily export-dependent. In the service sector, yes there is a dramatically increased percentage of private sector jobs, but that doesnt change that entire sectors are dominated by SOE's and that SOE's are by far the largest businesses. I mean look at your own statistic, even if you limit the GDP contribution to 25%, that's 25% of GDP created by SOE's who only employ 20% of the working population.

This is a pretty detailed breakdown of trying to wade through structure of Chinese businesses. One thing they did that muddies the water here is defer from Federal ownership to Municipal/Provincial Government ownership. They also lessened equity percentages and invested in more businesses. So there's a ton of dual ownership:

"Taken together, the findings indicate that drawing a stark distinction between SOEs and privately owned firms may not reflect the role of the state in China’s corporate sectors as well as the economy at large. Using the new measure of state ownership in firms, the analysis finds mixed state and private ownership, especially indirect government ownership, may combine the advantages of government support and the efficiency of private firms."

Reassessing the Role of State Ownership in China’s Economy

sccei.fsi.stanford.edu

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

Its 25%-40% depending on the study. And that puts it close to their manufacturing which is responsible for a lot of their GDP growth. They're heavily export-dependent. In the service sector, yes there is a dramatically increased percentage of private sector jobs, but that doesnt change that entire sectors are dominated by SOE's and that SOE's are by far the largest businesses. I mean look at your own statistic, even if you limit the GDP contribution to 25%, that's 25% of GDP created by SOE's who only employ 20% of the working population.

This is a pretty detailed breakdown of trying to wade through structure of Chinese businesses. One thing they did that muddies the water here is defer from Federal ownership to Municipal/Provincial Government ownership. They also lessened equity percentages and invested in more businesses. So there's a ton of dual ownership:

"Taken together, the findings indicate that drawing a stark distinction between SOEs and privately owned firms may not reflect the role of the state in China’s corporate sectors as well as the economy at large. Using the new measure of state ownership in firms, the analysis finds mixed state and private ownership, especially indirect government ownership, may combine the advantages of government support and the efficiency of private firms."

Reassessing the Role of State Ownership in China’s Economy

sccei.fsi.stanford.edu

that dude is possibly allergic to being right, it's impressive

 

[DoctorTaco]

the state retains tight control over strategic sectors, key industries, and regulatory power. The result is a hybrid system: a state-capitalist or “managed market” economy, where markets exist but the government and oligarchs play a dominant role.

Sounds familiar

 

[Sinister]

I watched both videos and I don't live anywhere near Nevada but I was wondering why is there not a labor law in Nevada that states for other than slots, video poker and sports gambling all casino games must be ran by a live human who works at the casino? Those computer related table games such as where poker players sit around a giant screen sucks.

I also wonder should there be commissions and agencies for each state to research and punish price gougers? There are laws on the books for price gouging in many states but they are often never enforced. Paying $9 for a Coke is silly and the people who set those prices should face some discipline.

Sorry I missed this earlier. I honestly didnt expect this thread to take off much.

Anyhow Nevada is a "free work" State technically. There are some pretty powerful Unions such as the Culinary Union, which have brought Hospitality to their knees a couple of times before. But ultimately there's a limit to their power, especially with how connected CEO's are here.

There definitely should be laws on pricing. I know that makes "free market" zealots grit their teeth, but especially with algorithmic pricing there should be mandated parameters. Biden's Administrarion was working on these things, of course Trump's is more set to grant corporations free reign.

 

[deviake]

You know what's funny about this is that the Mob ran Cuba, then moved here. And there are a few old timers here who LOVED Vegas when the Mob ran it. As weird as it might be the going notion is that the service was better. The gangster Casino managers knew how to treat people. Now I used to think this was just something said in movies but there are a few mob establishments still holding on and my wife encountered one as a Health Inspector. She said it was one of the most pleasant experiences she's had. The Manager always met her at the entrance WITH the Head of Custodial. She said the guy always remembered not only her name, but my name and asked her how I was doing (I forget why but she had told him a bit about me). And whenever she pointed out an issue he had it handled on the spot or had it taken down.

She said the corporations suck to deal with. It's difficult to find a manager, that manager can never find the head of custodial, and they always either are hardly paying attention or pass off responsibility to someone else. She says she thinks it's mostly because they're overworked, but some are also just jerks.

That being said, Cuba was also racially segregated and there was a lot of organized crime there then. Drunken Americans r*ping local women while incompetent police doing nothing about it. I can understand why the Revolutionaries took exception to being the playground of American criminals

Reminds me of Leno talking about the mob running things. Timestamped, relevant portion ends at 2:19

 

[IanEdwards]

I've been preaching this for a long time but I think that the decline of the middle class is the biggest threat to the nation right now and no party seems to want to tackle it. My personal opinion is that empowering labor laws and strengthening/encouraging unions is the best way to give a voice to the working class as the odds are currently stacking against them.

but this is 'communism' and you would be immediately shouted down and dismissed as such by c35% of voters

 

[IanEdwards]

Whoa, whoa, that's a little too complex for the modern socialist. Just take their money and give it away, bro. Problem solved.

Its been an interesting thread, there has been quite a lot of thoughtful input, people giving historical background and context, personal experiences, examples and counter-examples, philosophical and practical alternatives, and then there has been.... you. And that dumbassthing of which you are the (very, very) slightly evolved version.

It has been noteworthy, the average MAGAts basic unwillingness to commit to any kind of actual discussion. Difficult to know, in some cases, where an unwillingness to have the discussion ends, and an inability to do so starts, albeit the effect is exactly the same either way, and if it is a spectrum I suspect it is far nearer to the 'inability' pole than either you'd care to admit or likely even realise.

 

[Cid]

If you tax the gain but refund the loss, aren't you just breaking even?

That's why a wealth tax can't work. Either it's unfair because it only goes one way, or it's pointless because it goes both ways.

You could always just slap a 1% wealth tax on anyone over a hundred million.

Whether it goes up or down is irrelevant.

 

[IanEdwards]

You could always just slap a 1% wealth tax on anyone over a hundred million.

Whether it goes up or down is irrelevant.

There are lots of things that could be tried. The depressing, tragic thing is that so many have been gaslit into refusing to contemplate even trying. Then they sit on the sidelines slapping their own backs that they are, like, some kind of Randian ubermensch

 

[Natural Order]

It's a tough conversation to have when the top 5% already pay for 60% of all income tax.....

It's a funny conversation to see a lefty concerned about a place like Vegas.....lmfao

 

[IanEdwards]

It's a funny conversation to see a lefty concerned about a place like Vegas.....lmfao

what, like there aren't working people there? bit of a bizarre take there bro, IME 'lefties' start off with 'the good of the working classes' as the primary goal, or if they don't they fucking should and should stop being considered lefties at all. Even, or actually especially, in Temples of Capitalism and Consumption (which i take is your point that there's an implicit contradiction?), there is a potential to increase equality. Or being more realistic maybe start with decreasing inequality. Do 'lefties' just forget about waitresses and cleaners just because they happen to be serving millionaire gamblers? I may have mistook your meaning I guess.