Economy The Capitalism Crumble

[nostradumbass]

What do you see China as?

If they are capitalist they aren’t communist, but everyone on the right hates them for being “the communist party of china” etc.

The Chinese themselves say they are on a “capitalist road to communism” - That was the anti-Maoist philosophy that came into fashion after Mao

They have it backwards if that's what they say, they already tried communism under Mao and it failed, and they have been backing out of it for nearly 50 years since, keeping the tight social controls of communism but freeing up the markets. It was 70/30 publicly owned under Mao and everybody stayed dirt poor, and it's now inverted to 70/30 privately owned, and that is when the poverty started shrinking rapidly even thought the dreaded "income inequality" also exploded and they have greater income inequality than the US.

 

[Rygu]

People absolutely should complain about the wealthy not paying their share of taxes; and I will complain about it until the day I die.

How much tax should Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk pay per year?

 

[Sinister]

They have it backwards if that's what they say, they already tried communism under Mao and it failed, and they have been backing out of it for nearly 50 years since, keeping the tight social controls of communism but freeing up the markets. It was 70/30 publicly owned under Mao and everybody stayed dirt poor, and it's now inverted to 70/30 privately owned, and that is when the poverty started shrinking rapidly even thought the dreaded "income inequality" also exploded and they have greater income inequality than the US.

No.

"The percentage of state-owned businesses in China varies by metric, but as of 2024, state-owned enterprises (SOEs) account for the majority of the largest listed companies by market capitalization. They also represent 71% of China's Fortune 500 companies and 84% of the assets of top companies. However, when considering all registered firms, the picture is more complex, as nearly 867,000 firms have some level of state ownership, and the total capital of these firms represents a large share of the economy."

 

[Sinister]

How much tax should Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk pay per year?

Top marginal tax rate of 90% for every dollar over $500m, and they would still be billionaires with more money than a few generations of their Family could squander.

 

[Starck]

Everyone likes the shit on Bitcoin for its energy consumption.

Take a look at data centers and AI and get back to me.

Can shit on both of them.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Can shit on both of them.

 

[Daverisimo]

What is the alternative? Socialism?

Every other socialist experiment has transformed into a Vanguard Party controlling the means of production and treating the working class as too dim to know what is best for themselves.

I think a hybrid economy where healthcare, childcare, etc. are nationalized and the general market remains is ideal.

Eh, not really. The Paris Commune, Machnovschina, Revolutionary Catalonia, and Rojava are all counterexamples. Of course, only Rojava still exists, and I'm not saying that they're examples to emulate in the context of the US, but they didn't collapse into vanguardism, nor they fail due to internal problems.

The problem with talking about socialism is, I think, that people kinda mistake the map for the territory. State communism was (and to the extent that it still exists, is) an attempt to create a socialist society. It failed, and in retrospect, it was always going to fail, but it's just one approach.

 

[Rygu]

Top marginal tax rate of 90% for every dollar over $500m, and they would still be billionaires with more money than a few generations of their Family could squander.

Are you talking personal income, share holdings, net worth, what?

 

[HereticBD]

Are you talking personal income, share holdings, net worth, what?

Whoa, whoa, that's a little too complex for the modern socialist. Just take their money and give it away, bro. Problem solved.

 

[HOLA]

What do you see China as?

If they are capitalist they aren’t communist, but everyone on the right hates them for being “the communist party of china” etc.

The Chinese themselves say they are on a “capitalist road to communism” - That was the anti-Maoist philosophy that came into fashion after Mao

China doesn't actually care whether the cat is black or white; they only care if it catches mice. They are far more pragmatic than many Americans realize. Their success in recent decades could probably be accurately attributed to Lee Kuan Yew, and emulating what he did with Singapore.

Mao himself wasn't even an ideologue; he was just a hedonist and solipsist who was amused by massacres.

 

[Sinister]

Whoa, whoa, that's a little too complex for the modern socialist. Just take their money and give it away, bro. Problem solved.

Whoa whoa, that's a little too com pl Alex for the modern capitalist apologist. Just give all your money to your superiors because you're a worker bee who cant possibly comprehend how moneys works. Problem solved.

 

[HereticBD]

Whoa whoa, that's a little too com pl Alex for the modern capitalist apologist. Just give all your money to your superiors because you're a worker bee who cant possibly comprehend how moneys works. Problem solved.

com-pl-Alex? If that was intentional, please explain it. That's one weird typo.

Anyways, your rebuttal is pathetic and stupid, as usual.

 

[Rygu]

Whoa whoa, that's a little too com pl Alex for the modern capitalist apologist. Just give all your money to your superiors because you're a worker bee who cant possibly comprehend how moneys works. Problem solved.

Are you going to answer my question on what Jeff Bezos should be taxed on and how much he should pay annually in tax?

You said 90% on every dollar over 500m but more details are needed.

 

[Gamer2k4]

The only difference is I don't think don't think capitalism is a great evil but unchecked capitalism is.

That's exactly it. Human nature is going to ruin everything eventually, but capitalism is the only economic system that accepts it, accounts for it, and actually tries to leverage it. Capitalism says, "You want want money? Go ahead and work for it, and you'll get it."

If you don't account for greed, you're left hoping that altruism is sustainable. Greed isn't sustainable either, but it's a whole lot more sustainable than charity.

 

[Sinister]

Are you talking personal income, share holdings, net worth, what?

I'll answer your question by noting that I dont support the idea of billionaires carrying around these "net worth" stats because they keep all their alleged value in stocks to keep it tax free, and then live on loans they take against that alleged "net worth"...which are also not taxed. Such loopholes should be closed, and taxed at that top marginal tax rate.

In the 1950's that rate was in effect for incomes over $400k and there were still loopholes. $500m is more than generous.

 

[Rygu]

I'll answer your question by noting that I dont support the idea of billionaires carrying around these "net worth" stats because they keep all their alleged value in stocks to keep it tax free, and then live on loans they take against that alleged "net worth"...which are also not taxed. Such loopholes should be closed, and taxed at that top marginal tax rate.

In the 1950's that rate was in effect for incomes over $400k and there were still loopholes. $500m is more than generous.

Ok so Bezos has approximately 190 billion in Amazon shares, that accounts for the vast majority of his net worth. His annual salary is 80k.

How much tax should Jeff Bezos pay?

 

[Sinister]

That's exactly it. Human nature is going to ruin everything eventually, but capitalism is the only economic system that accepts it, accounts for it, and actually tries to leverage it. Capitalism says, "You want want money? Go ahead and work for it, and you'll get it."

If you don't account for greed, you're left hoping that altruism is sustainable. Greed isn't sustainable either, but it's a whole lot more sustainable than charity.

It's always entertaining to hear capitalist apologists attempt to both sound cynical and idealistic at the same time. Capitalism doesnt "account for" greed insomuch as it necessitates it. No ideology based on perpetual growth is sustainable, I'd have thought we learned this from the MLM model.

In the religion of capitalism where does this money come from? Because little angers capitalists more than money not being tied to some finite commodity, or the idea that we can just create more of it when it gets too scarce. Like when 10 d*ckheads are hoarding it all. The fatal flaw of capitalism is the notion that "economics" is a game that must be won.

 

[filthybliss]

Dude we are currently ruled by a class of capitalists who think we are too dumb to understand how to spend our own money, so they're chopping social safety nets and giving $20 billion to an idiot who crashed a foreign economy who claims he can talk to his dog.

Does it matter what label the stupidity has on it?

I would agree that a mixed economy is the best way to go. I dont Profess to know how to make an entire Country better, but I do think looking at other places that did exactly that and have excellent metrics would be a good start. And not through the lense of racism, because as always someone will claim that whichever Country accomplished this did so because there arent many black or Latino people as opposed to looking at how much geopolitical bullsh*t that Country has had to deal with.

Workplace democracy like they did in Catalonia seems to be a superior alternative to Vanguardism. I just don’t know how that could ever be organized on such a wide scale.

Nationalizing and subsidizing higher education has to happen sooner or later with the expansion of AI outsourcing jobs and work becoming even more specialized.

 

[Sinister]

Ok so Bezos has approximately 190 billion in Amazon shares, that accounts for the vast majority of his net worth. His annual salary is 80k.

How much tax should Jeff Bezos pay?

This would require a closing of the "unrealized gains" loophole that allows for the "buy, borrow, die" strategy to not work. Jeff Bezos does not have super yachts (which they also avoid taxes on) on $80k per year.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

Ok so Bezos has approximately 190 billion in Amazon shares, that accounts for the vast majority of his net worth. His annual salary is 80k.

How much tax should Jeff Bezos pay?

In order to tax Bezos properly the U.S. would need to introduce mark-to-market taxation (means you are taxed each year on the increase in the value of your assets, even if you don't sell them.)

Example Jeff Bezos:

Jeff owns about $190 billion in Amazon stock.
Suppose that at the start of the year, his stock is worth $180 billion.
At the end of the year, it’s worth $190 billion.
That’s a $10 billion gain in value.

Under mark-to-market taxation, Jeff would be taxed on that $10 billion gain even though he hasn’t sold any stock. If the capital gains tax rate is 25%, he would owe $2.5 billion in taxes that year. So he would have to sell off pieces of Amazon or change the salary structure to accommodate.

Billionaires often avoid income taxes by holding appreciating assets, borrowing against those assets for spending, and paying low capital gains taxes only when they eventually sell (if ever). Mark-to-market would close that gap by taxing the yearly increase in wealth from assets like stocks, real estate, etc.

It’s still a small amount but it would be a good start.