The birth of "kickboxing" and its rivalries and controversies with muay thai

Discussion in 'Muay Thai and Kickboxing' started by ichibang, Nov 4, 2013.

  1. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    No, I am not talking about kicking above waist American style Chuck Norris's kickboxing.
    I am talking about the birth of the word "kickboxing" and its origin.
    Seeing how people cite the same wiki source plus rumours again and
    again, I decided to write about origins of kickboxing in detail.
    I will try my base to cite the sources, sadly it is mostly going to be Thai and
    Japanese, so you are probably not going to understand it, please use google translate.
    So...here we goes.

    Osamu Noguchi...when you google his name and read wiki, you will think that he is some
    martial art enthusiasts who seek to combine martial arts around the world and started
    the term "kickboxing"...no...no he's not that "GOOD" of a man.

    Let's start with the story that every one has already heard about, Osamu Noguchi
    took 3 karate fighters from Oyama Dojo to Thailand, they came to Thailand and won 2-1 against muay thai fighters on February 12,1963.
    The little know fact though is that this is a can crushing event live from Bangkok.
    The only fighter who is not can (I am going to use the term can, because virtually
    no one knows who the hell these two guys came from, they only exist in history
    for this can crushing purpose) is Rawee Dechachai who came from years of retirement. Rawee beat Kenji Kurosaki, whom Karate side claimed that he was
    a replacement...fine, but with the weight difference I guess we are even.

    [​IMG]

    It's revealed after the fight that the Chinese boxer who fought Nakamura didn't train
    and was coming out of 3 years retirement. And a rumor that Hao Fai threw a fight
    to get money and chance for a rematch in Japan.
    (Ignore the origins of these two boxers if you want, but please stop claiming they are former Thai champions)
    This event is a huge blow to already little known art of muay thai, Osamu established
    claim that kickboxing is a superior art. (This event was promoted as "ศึกคิกบ็อกซิ่ง" or "The battle of Kickboxing" in Thailand,this helps promote both Oyama style karate and Kickboxing)

    Of course after that Noguchi promoted the crap out of kickboxing, claiming thins like
    it is the origin of muay thai, and is clearly superior art. When you look at footage
    of kickboxing fights at this time, you will understand that it is basically muay thai
    with with pants or gi well it depends...It has Wai Kru, the only differences are that it allows butting and judo throws.
    (Please know that the there is a very thin line between kickboxing and Kyokushin
    karate kickboxer at this point, Kickboxers from Noguchi camps will fight like Thai boxers
    with Wai Kru, but claim that they train kickboxing not muay thai)

    He then formed kickboxing sanctioning body in 1966, and the event was held
    across Japan since April 11, 1966.
    The great can crushing them began, Noguchi would bring cans from Thailand to Japan
    to get crushed and repeat again and again.

    The biggest star at that time though is Tadashi Sawamura who made his fame in both Japan
    and America (if I am not mistaken) a man with solid resume I would say.

    But amazingly, this pissed off so many Thai promoters and fighters that Thai fighters
    finally started to go and fight abroad especially in Japan. This is why we get many
    footage of prime Thai fighters fighting abroad.
    Arguably most famous fight in Japan is this fight, to be honest to this day I still
    have no idea who this Thai is, "yeah, his name is Samarn, but what gym he came
    from? Is he a champ in Thailand?" I have no idea"

    Well he totally crushed legendary Tadashi Sawamura, (I don't understand why
    he chose to wear gi in this fight, normally he wears pants or Thai shorts)
    The fight happened on June 21, 1966. .

    [YT]px1Ivctja4w[/YT]

    And the tension finally reached it maximum level.

    Let me tell you the story of "Noguchi gym incident" or "Kickboxing incident"
    1972, Bangkok Thailand.

    Here is the story, after Mr. Osamu has copied muay thai, and established kickboxing
    in Japan. (which will finally became the equivalent of muay thai just with different
    name in Japan) he opened his "kickboxing gym" in Bangkok, Thailand called "Noguchi gym"
    It's a gym inside big department store near Daimaru at Rajadamri.

    Trust me, it exists, I am not bullshitting you dude.
    [​IMG]

    Here is the problem, it is a muay thai gym, but he called it "kickboxing" gym,
    the term he created himself, this caused the large protest at that time.
    But Noguchi didn't give a damn, he is a business man, a smart one. He used the gym
    to demonstrate his art to Japanese tourists who came to watch muay thai,
    claiming that his kickboxing is so good that he had to open the gym in Thailand,
    and that muay thai is inferior art, citing the victories of kickboxers against Thai boxers
    in mainland Japan.
    Of course, the incident escalated quickly, leading to the boycott of Japan products,
    with a few threats to bomb the gym. And a few rounds of bullets shot.

    October 16th 1972. To settle this bullshit once and for all, Osamu Noguchi brought
    kickboxers to Thailand for the final showdown, while the Thai side was lead by
    legendary Kru Yodthong. It's 7 vs 7 battle.
    Well, the muay thai side was victorious.
    Here is a footage with commentator confirmed that Before this fight Muay thai already won two battles, and that it's 7 vs 7 battle.

    This is an article from blackbelt magazine in September, 1972 issue. From page 59 on
    wards, there are quite a few match up at that time, so the video of Dieselnoi
    fighting below is either from this match or another match up.
    The result is muay thai win 5-1, the Japanese victory is by disqualification.

    http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=N9cDAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=blackbelt+1972&hl=th&sa=X&ei=NGp4UoLtMMyQkwXm-4DwCA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

    [YT]pARhS01zlWw[/YT]

    After the fight, Kru Yodthong walked to Mr. Noguchi and punched him in the face.
    Thai prime minister finally decided to say fxxx this shit, and order mr. Noguchi to leave Thailand and never return again.
    Japan government also orders Mr. Noguchi to never cause any more notoriety to
    Japan, and stop all activities regarding kickboxing and muay thai.

    sources for this part: It cites major newspaper at that time.
    http://www.mekong.ne.jp/directory/society/noguchigym.htm

    ps this is the story of origin of term kickboxing, please do not confuse American kickboxing or Dutch fighters
    who say they are kickboxers with this one.

    The term kickboxing basically means muay thai in Japan, they fight in full Thai rule, some even do wai kru.
    It has been like that since the end of Noguchi incident.
    The Japanese only started to confuse the term kickboxer as "muay thai", and kickboxer as "Dutch kickboxers"
    after the birth of K1.
    edit: reducing the level of being a muay thai elitist by 1%
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
  2. edgekiller65

    edgekiller65 Green Belt

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    It's an interesting piece of history.

    But I can't avoid the smell of elitist MT jerk coming from that other thread that stench on this one.
     
  3. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    There are in fact many styles match up back in the day like Kung fu vs muay thai, which
    muay thai made a clean sweep or pro wrestling vs muay thai, which muay thai won
    again.
    Kickboxing vs muay thai was the most popular though, like this footage when Put Lorlek was trolling here.

    [YT]Bng1DlLk2qM[/YT]

    Put was coming out of retirement in this fight, and was up way to middleweight
    giving like 20 pounds in this fight,
    (he was a natural featherweight who went up to lightwelterweight, and welterweight
    in his prime because he can't find equal opponents)
    I remember seeing Hikari as a ref in K1, he was also pretty famous back then.
     
  4. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    Well, it is a piece of history with bunches of controversies in it. Kickboxing was not
    established by a clean business man. Noguchi is a corrupted promoter.
    I can try to find Japan newspaper that talk about the story back then if you want.

    We are not talking about K1 kickboxing or American kickboxing here, we are talking about
    pieces of dirty history that causes heavy backlash to Japan back in 1966-1972
    with the boycott of Japan product and reemergance of Nationalist factions in Thailand
    who hate the *** so much since World War 2.

    Interesting fact is that this is the last incident that caused backlash to Japan economy,
    after this Thailand would become one of the biggest buyers/supporters of Japan
    economy domination in Asia. And Japan economy and production soon reach its peak
    after that.

    Many mma fans in this forum don't know the history and situation back in the day,
    and quick to take wiki side of story that supports Noguchi, when that is not
    a true story.
     
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  5. Jukai

    Jukai Silver Belt

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    I'm going to try to get energy to read the rest, but I stopped at the Tadashi Sawamura part. That video Ichibang posted was before Sawamura switched to Kickboxing. He was purely a point-karate fighter, and a mediocre one at that (was a college champion, not a Japan or World champion). That fight also took place in Thailand, because Sawamura purposefully traveled there to test HIS Karate (NOT Kyokushin, I've heard a scholastic version of shorin-ryu). The loss to the thai fighter forced Sawamura to TRAIN Japanese kickboxing in the first place.

    So yeah, that's already one thing blatantly wrong.
     
  6. cade187

    cade187 I'm not a part of your system.

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    Marking to read later. Thanks
     
  7. Cocakillbana

    Cocakillbana Black Belt

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    Sawamura was a fraud anyways.

    A lot of his highlight reel is fake as fuck.
     
  8. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    As a human being who can read Japanese, I am so tired of reading this bullshit.
    Can you even read Japanese in the video Mr. Jukai?
    This fight happened in Japan, frickin Japan, and I facing another Hufusopem
    who can't read Japanese but continue to translate Japanese to English?
    1. If you ever meet Japanese and Thai people in your live you will know that
    they are all Japanese near ring side.
    Thai people don't wear suit to watch muay thai.
    2. I am going to traslate it so you can understand.
    From 0:50 mark,
    "Showa 41, June, 21st at "TOKYO, SHIBUYA" "RIKI SPORT PALACE"
    Sawamura was downed 16 times by Samarn.

    What's wrong with you Jukai?
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
  9. Jukai

    Jukai Silver Belt

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    Well, I read the rest of the article, there is nothing to fact check because I can't find anything on the internet about the 1972 tournament. The article that was posted never mentions the outcome of the tournament, only that it happened. It was mostly about how the Thai were offended by the place because they felt it was purposefully called "Kickboxing" instead of "Muay Thai" as an insult, and that the place was getting bomb threats and three gunshots were fired through the window. The article also mentions that the place only was open for about two weeks before it was closed down...

    So yeah, I guess the 7 v 7 tournament could be true, but I have no idea because I can't find anything about it and can't understand thai in the video.

    Everything I've read says that the fight took place in Thailand, and people wearing suits don't really change my opinion. If you claim the commentator says differently, I guess I will take your word for it, but I notice you haven't argued anything else I said, which was my main point: this fight was before Sawamura ever learned Japanese kickboxing. That is why he is wearing his gi, he was using the Shorin-Ryu he learned in his school.
     
  10. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    Riki Sports Palace

    [​IMG]
     
  11. ThatBJJGuy

    ThatBJJGuy Brown Belt

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    Kickboxing > Muay Thai

    deal with it
     
  12. DastardlyMass

    DastardlyMass Brown Belt

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    Great stuff! You cant find any video's of the muay thai vs pro wrestling can you? I think it would be great seeing so dude 200 pounds getting kicked to death by a 130 pounder
     
  13. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    I apologize for finding the sources from languages you don't understand.
    東京・渋谷 means Tokyo, Shibuya. And if you think that Thai people wearing
    suits to watch the fights then it means that you have zero idea about muay thai.

    The commentator in Thai video say that สองคู่ก่อนหน้านี้เราชนะ (Song khu korn na nee
    rao cha na) which means we won two of the match prior to this match up.

    And where you read that from that said the fight happened in Thailand?
    even Japanese anime about this fight showed that it happened in Japan.

    We know that he is a famous kickboxer, but about the style in this fight I guess
    you have to cite your sources as I already cited mine.
     
  14. Cocakillbana

    Cocakillbana Black Belt

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    You're the "Muay Thai fighters can't box" guy, right?

    I remember owning you with facts and you ran away.

    It's best you stay out of this as well.
     
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  15. Snubnoze707

    Snubnoze707 High Level

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    Nice thread. I've seen these fights before but never knew the story behind them.

    Shit is gonna get real in here...
     
  16. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    ThatBJJGuy is just a troll, just ignore him.
    Sorry Dastardly, I can't find any muay thai vs pro wrestling video, the only things
    I can find other than muay thai vs kickboxing footage is old muay thai vs kung fu pre fight
    post from 100 years ago.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    You guys can have some fun if you use google books to search topic from blackbelt
    times, lots of interesting articles in there.

    This is from Blackbelt times in June, 1974

    If we get lucky, we might find the articles about Muay thai vs kickboxing 7v7 I mention in English.
    So far I find this plus muay thai 5v5 vs Kung fu, that muay thai won all by ko, the kung fu fighters use barefist.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
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  18. DastardlyMass

    DastardlyMass Brown Belt

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    That putlorlek video was great that is the worst he ever look in his career and just dominated him. He even used a axe kick and several side kicks which all the fucktards will say is karate but like I have been trying to tell them all there techniques were al ready in muaythai ( the effective strikes that is)
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
  19. GustavHolst**

    GustavHolst** Purple Belt

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    Man, I really wish that we could get an educational thread by someone who isn't a complete partisan. At least try to make it seem neutral, dude. I don't really see the point of this thread, other than to say Mr. Noguchi was a corrupt fight promoter. Ask me to show you a corrupt person, I'd point you in the direction of any fight promoter.

    But really, the Japanese kickboxing of the 60s-70s is distinct from what we, today, think of as kickboxing: American-rules kickboxing that was popular in the 80s (no kicks below the waist) and K-1 rules kickboxing, which was borne out of Seidokaikan.
     
  20. DastardlyMass

    DastardlyMass Brown Belt

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    Badass pic! Someone needs to get tony jaa and the director and writer of fearless with jet li to tell the story of Nai Khanomtom or a story about muaythai vs the other arts
     

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