The birth of "kickboxing" and its rivalries and controversies with muay thai

Discussion in 'Muay Thai and Kickboxing' started by ichibang, Nov 4, 2013.

  1. Jukai

    Jukai Silver Belt

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    Stop being such a baby. I gave you the link, you have given me nothing but your "word". That was before Sawamura's kickboxing days. He was a college-level point karate fighter, he was not even good enough to compete in the All-Japan tournaments. After realizing he was not good enough to beat the Thai fighter, he SWITCHED to Kickboxing. The information you posted in your OP is wrong, you need to be a man and admit as much.

    In your thread about Thai superiority of Japanese kickboxing, you have posted one bullshit video of Sawamura losing before he trained in kicboxing, one kickboxer losing to the best Thai fighter of all time in a "tournament" that you can't find any evidence of, one Blackbelt Magazine article about an amateur Muay Thai fighter beating an amateur point-karate fighter in the Philippines. You finally have a source of a 5-1 Thai v Japanese kickboxing fight in an article mentioning that all the Japanese Kickboxers had less than two years of experiencing while all the Thai boxers were veterans. Good link. I like the disqualification from "letting the opponent punch him in the face."

    And LOL at the anime being legitimate. If the anime is true, what is this thread about then? That means Japanese kickboxing > Muay Thai because that was the gist of the anime.

    If the point of this thread was to show that Japanese kickboxing promoter Osamu Noguchi was a losing and possibly dickish businessman, you are probably right, the article you sourced (which mentioned NOTHING about the Thais beating the Japanese) mentioned he was purposefully promoting a seaprate art when hiring Muay Thai teachers at his school, then you proved your point, you found a thread showing that the people got so wiled up that they fired bullets through the window and threatened to bomb the place. If you wanted to try and find some evidence of Thai superiority to Japanese kickboxers, you are floundering miserable.
     
  2. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    Good lord Jukai, you need to really stop talking about story you have no idea talking about.
    And if you can't read Japanese then stop citing stories that do not exist in that article.
    Where are the stories of low level karate come from?

    And please do not become a fool, the anime is made by Noguchi, but the topic I cite from
    the story is that it happened in Japan not Thailand.
    So far your bullshitting in this threads is
    1. The fight happened in Thailand
    2. Noguchi is a low level no body in karate world
    Also you completely ignore all sources I posted, you claim the sources mean nothing
    because they are in Thai and Japanese, fine I translate for you.
    You still don't believe me, fine I find sources in English.
    You still act like it means nothing.

    What the fux you want me to do?
     
  3. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    And once again if I want to start a thread about muay Thai beating other arts then
    I would not start this thread, there are so many stories that it deserves its own thread.
    I started this thread to tell the rather ugly origin of kickboxing in Japan, that caused shitstorm in Thailand.
    Eventually leading to the word kickboxing = muay Thai in Japan, I am not talking about
    American kickboxing or k1 kickboxing here.
     
  4. Pem123

    Pem123 Red Belt

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    My Point is

    1. Kickboxing is not just the watered down version of Muay Thai, because if it is all Combat Sports is watered version of Vale Tudo
    2. Kickboxing is Originated From Karate, after 3 Karate Practitioner including Kenji Kurosaki, from Oyama Dojo win 2-1 against Muay Thai both Noguchi and Kenji created Kickboxing which are Karate Blended with Muay Thai that they learn while they fighting against Thai ( and some western Boxing too)
    3. Noguchi MIGHT be a fraud promoter (according to your sources) but they real guy behind Kickboxing is Kenji Kurosaki, which later he created the Meijo GYM which and the Major Kickboxing GYM in Japan and the starting point of kickboxing in japan
    4. kickboxing is created by a legitimate Martial art, who desire changes from their original Martial art, they can called it whatever they want
     
  5. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    How can all combat sports be watered down version of vale tudo when they don't even know
    Vale Tudo exists.
    If kickboxing in Japan is really a combined version of muay Thai and karate, then why the term kickboxing in Japanese language
    means exactly the same as muay Thai. With organization like new Japan kickboxing which
    is basically muay Thai organization, the current owner even said the fall of k1 help sport of muay Thai in Japan.
    Why were they stopped using judo throws and headbutt if they really want to claim they
    started new martial art after the fraud ended then.
    Remember we are not talking about American kickboxing here.
     
  6. Jukai

    Jukai Silver Belt

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    Do you have a learning disability or a reading comprehension problem?

    I have already stated the fight may have taken place in Japan, as the original article I read about the subject said "OF Thailand" and not "IN Thailand."

    I never said Noguchi was a low level nobody in the Karate world--- I said Sawamura, at the time of that video, augmented with the citations that I have submitted in this thread, show that he had not trained Kickboxing at all, but instead was a college-level point karate fighter who was not good enough to make the all-japan karate tournaments.

    You have not cited anything about Sawamura, I was the only one to provide an article, an interview with Sawamura himself, who says that the fight you posted was before he began training with Noguchi and became a "Japanese Kickboxer."

    So the fact that you put that video up as evidence of Muay Thai > Japanese kickboxing when it is in fact a video of Muay Thai > college-level point Karate shows the entire disingenuous nature of this thread.

    I don't have any hand puppets, so right now I am at a loss.
     
  7. shinkyoku

    shinkyoku Brown Belt

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    Kenji Kurosaki learning MT after his loss is a bit of overstatement. He did study it to some extent, but he is quoted as stating that while he liked the ferocity and toughness of MT he regarded their technique as primitive and inferior. This long after he had become a established pillar of Japanese kickboxing.
     
  8. Pem123

    Pem123 Red Belt

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    Just see what ichibang Have to Said with that
     
  9. whitesport

    whitesport Brown Belt

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    Take your childish troll attempts and piss off back to the heavies...
     
  10. Yodsanan

    Yodsanan K'FESTA.1

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    [​IMG]
     
  11. CPH

    CPH Let's party

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    ...oh dear. You just know that this is going to end badly :icon_cry2
     
  12. Blazeblack

    Blazeblack Blue Belt

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    I feel the butthurt is strong with this thread.
     
  13. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    It is a pic of Kung fu and muay boran from 100 years ago. I can post ten more of these or none of them and the thread tend would not change.
    Kung fu was actually regarded highly in Thailand(Siam back in the day) it is when
    pro muay thai started booming and the match up started happening that the people
    started believing in muay Thai more and more.
    First recorded fight in the last 100 years was actually between muay Thai and Kung fu fighter.
    The reason why muay Thai fighters started wearing gloves in the first place was because
    of Kung fu fighter's death due to punch to the throat.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
  14. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    I don't see any quote about college level karate, and I never refer to Noguchi as fighter in this thread.
    You are quoting an interview in Japanese, the language you don't understand and at mercy of google translation.
    You already mistranslated it multiple times already, and I will repeat again that I don't see any talk about Sawamura being
    college level karateka who is not good enough to join all Japan in that video.
     
  15. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    Yep, read the link Jukai post again and it mentions nothing about Sawamura low level karate.

    And now we have shinkyoku talking about Kenji Kurosaki, would you kindly cite where you read that from please.
     
  16. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    Quote please, also I don't really understand the inferior part when what he did in his gym
    was training guys to fight Thai style to beat Thai champion in the organization that
    is all about full Thai rule.
    I am not really surprised if he said he felt it was primitive though every one said the same back
    then muay Thai was like mma or vale tudo of the 1960s 1970s you don't see people fight
    with elbows and knees in full contact style like that.
     
  17. ichibang

    ichibang Black Belt

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    We are talking about origin of kicknoxing here which is not as glorious as other posters
    thought they are.
    While muay Thai has clear pattern of evolving over the year you can't say the same
    for kickboxing in Japan.
    And what is that heavily from primarily boxing supposed to mean, what other styles other than boxing that influences muay Thai.
     
  18. Pem123

    Pem123 Red Belt

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    This All Day

    if they said Kickboxing borrowed heavily/Copy from Muay thai, same can be said with Muay thai and western martial art
     
  19. DastardlyMass

    DastardlyMass Brown Belt

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    How when thailand had almost no contact with the west when muay thai came to be?
     
  20. Pem123

    Pem123 Red Belt

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    Which part of he studied Muay Thai blended with his own style to make a new martial art you don't understand ?



    there is a lot of type of Kickboxing too, Zendoka Kickboxing, Free style Kickboxing, Point Kickboxing, etc. are all of them the watered down version of Kickboxing that Kenji Ozaki created ? of course no.

    i can go to Thailand now learn 3 days of Muay thai Mixed with some Karate and my own crazy technique, and make a new martial art called PemBOXING, if i want to. and you can't tell me what i'm teaching is, You can't tell me what i should called it , because i created it, i can called what ever i want and no one can told me otherwise, some cases with Kenji Ozaki, and we need to remember that he is a legit Black belt from Oyama Dojo, he is not just some Keyboard warrior training in MCdojo.
     

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