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The BIG MISTAKE i see a lot of people making here !

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by Biggiebrother**, Sep 13, 2005.

  1. Biggiebrother**

    Biggiebrother** Brown Belt

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    I train in Muay Thai as well as play indoor soccer and run i wouldn't say competitively but definitely seriously.
    I can run 5K in 16:10 and 10K in a tad under 36 mins

    Whilst i am not the best fighter in my gym by any means, i am easily one of the ,if not the fittest. I NEVER gas in training, well ok, let's say i never gas before anyone else, we get worked pretty damm hard. And yes that includes the best fighters in the gym, the ones who do get into the ring and fight on the local circuit. Some of them get me to run with them, help them with their cardio.

    Now there is no doubt that running is not fighting and fighting is a mix of working aerobically and anaerobically.

    BUT THE KEY IS THIS - To increase your ability to work anaerobically, you need to improve greatly your aerobic capacity!

    Think of it this way, you are building a pyramid. The idea is to get your pyramid as tall and as strong as possible. How do you do this ? you build the biggest base you can, the bigger the base, ultimately the taller and stronger your pyramid will be. And that is what you need to do here. You need to build an AEROBIC BASE!

    Then from there you can add the anaerobic workouts like Guerallia cardio etc. I do everything from hill runs to 200 and 400s on the track to running up and down stairs etc but i still maintain solid aerobic runs each week including one really long one (like 2 hours). One long slow run a week really really improves your indepth long term endurance.

    So guys, yes i know you will see what you think are quick results from these short cardio workouts like Guerilla cardio etc but without a solid aerobic base, you will not be able to get that true endurance, the type of endurance which will enable you to go 12 rounds in boxing or kickboxing or 30+ minutes in MMA

    Remember the better your base, the higher your pyramid.

    As an example at the elite level, 800metre runners (800metres is the shortest event which uses both aerobic and anerobic capacity, the sprint events don't really tax your aerobic capacity too much) put in a lot of miles a week, pretty close to the amount of miles 10K runners put in. And their event takes less than 2 minutes, why ? Because they need that aerobic base.

    The TUF treadmill workout which hardly any of the fighters could complete. I've done that EASILY.

    I'm quite impressed with Boomstick's training program for this kids here http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=288374

    why ? He is building a solid aerobic base for his kids. On top of that, he also is giving them variety with the biking, running and swimming. Kids needs that to stay interested, very cool :)

    THERE IS NO EASY WAY TO KILLER CARDIO ! There just isn't ! Takes many hours over a lengthy period of time to really build good endurance. The great thing is, keep a journal of your workouts and you see yourself improving. Going longer, faster etc. This was going on 6 years now, but there was a time i was 20Kg overweight and couldn't run down the road. I started off walking, then jogging 1K, then just kept adding distance each week, getting faster as the weight dropped. Now as stated at the start of this thread, i am pretty fucking fit :)
     
  2. Ian Coe

    Ian Coe Silver Belt Professional Fighter

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    A lot of people are increasing the height of the pyramid, which means lower work levels are easier to maintain (ie you can push longer at the same level or push at a greater level for the same time).
    While increasing the upper part of the pyramid is needed, so is the lower ofcourse, but sprints with low amounts of rest do this with less time,
    I personally get my aerobic capacity from the sport itself, and do sprints with minimal rest to push up my VO2 max level so that I can push harder at training. I would think a lot of people do that but just don't spell it out.
    My only runs that last 20 or so minutes are recovery runs to get the blood pumping (I do a couple of 2 milers every now and then to see how my aerobic is, they are generally under 12 minutes, give or take)

    Any other 'mistakes'
     
  3. teep

    teep Guest

    True the base needs ot be laid. And that is the first thing an athlete has to work on--once you ahve been doing something forf a few years then it becomes more detailed. Also it should be noted that too much of the interval training will deplete the hormonal system.

    You will be down for quite some tim if you try to push through this.

    Aerobic base can be added slowly and it does not tax the homronal system like the intervals. Of course if you are trying to increase your pace and drop your times it will push it. But pushing at VO2 max or beyond is going to drive the hormonal system.

    This is why long distance cylcists are the KINGS when it comes to pharmacology.
     
  4. Ian Coe

    Ian Coe Silver Belt Professional Fighter

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    I just learnt something new teep.

    I always missed the link of why i felt so shitty after interval work or after heavy lifting

    You just filled that gap

    Cheers
     
  5. Duncon76

    Duncon76 Blue Belt

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    Sounds good. I am sure people that trained anaerobically only for their sport would do better for that sport. Specificity...Then adding in Long distance stuff...It could be used for active recovery, but thats it.
     
  6. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

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    Thats why olympic judo and boxing do distance in the off-season.
     
  7. JoeU1741

    JoeU1741 Yellow Belt

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    Same here. Good stuff Teep.
     
  8. teep

    teep Guest

    Yeah a huge aerobic base helps build the body to remove build up of lactic acid and to have the krebs cycle move faster.

    Yeah, you have to watch the hormonal system--this is the surest way to be overtriained and destroyed.

    This is what we see in Thailand all of the time (although the Thais do not know the science behind it): someone comes to Thailand and tries to impress everyhone with how strong they are and how high their motor density is--they try to do do the 6 hours a day of the hell we do here--in weather that they have never trained in (that alone will kill you---it is quite different being inside with controlled climate).

    In the heat and humidity and the diet (which is shit here in Thailand) it takes about 3 days (tops) and they are sick and not at the gym---it costs some of them a week or more and then they repeat the process. It's about build up--but few get that point.

    Remember in the fight is when to push past the limits--not in training every day.

    and Ian--you're welcome
     
  9. i've never heard the term hormonal system used with cardio and it's making me feel like a noob now that i dont understand what you're talking about teep. can you dumb it up a bit for me?

    when i trained wrestling we were in a dungeon with no windows or anything, no vents and the sports med trainer next door had the building heater right in there with her and she kept it cranked up. we'd grab the occational water break transitioning from drilling to sparring and when we open the door to go back in, steam or mist would pour out. the walls would be covered in a layer of condensation from the water in the air and once or twice we worked so hard in that room you couldnt see the olympic posters on the other side of the room through the mist.

    if you could breathe in that room though the workouts we did, you could breathe in any gym and on any mat. however, the new guys would be gasping for air and running outside to puke and get water and breathe, etc. neadless to say, we didn't have to deal with weak new guys and the true grit new guys stuck along for the ride.
     
  10. teep

    teep Guest

    Excderise Physiology text books will cover what I am talking about.
    Actually I get paid for this sort of information so you can see why I am reticent about handing out a lot of it for free. I have noticed that Ian has a lot of info and just wanted to contribute.
     
  11. Ian Coe

    Ian Coe Silver Belt Professional Fighter

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    My knowledge has a lot of holes in it to be honest, hence I air them and if someone sees something wrong with it, I hope they'll tell me so I can go and read up about it a bit more/be corrected.

    I'm quite interested in the hormonal changes of anaerobic training now, so I'm researching it a little.

    A site I just stumbled across that seems to have a good over view:
    http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol71/table.htm

    fight song-I also never associated hormonal changes with cardio work (other then a study I read about ages ago, concerning marathon runner and a very low test level). I'm glad teep pointed it out. I always feel more dead after 3 days of works and MT work (anaerobic and aerobic) then if I just do MT and weights or just plain MT (I didn't really overtrain as much when I was out in thailand, but now I'm back doing the weights and GC work, I feel more overtrained sooner). I was just associating it with a greater workload per week, which at a base level it is, but now I have some where to concentrate on
     
  12. Todd Gack

    Todd Gack Dutch

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    This is an interesting point and it's one that I totally agree with. I encountered something like this a few months ago when I took a PA fit test for the Police Dept. It involved a short distance obstacle course done for 6 laps and had to have been completed in under 4 minutes. Highly anaerobic. A few of us actually trained on the course itself leading up to the test and worked our asses off with interval training and short distance sprints etc. Needless to say we all passed with decent numbers.

    But, there were 2 guys from out of town there for the test who were primarily 5-10K runners who rarely did, if any, short distance/interval training but instead ran longer distances. They set the top two times of the group and were actually still in good shape after the test was done, whereas the rest of us were still breathing hard. To make it even more interesting, these two guys were from out of town and they had never even seen this course before.

    You could argue a bunch of points in their favour but it's still some food for thought!

    For those of you here, how many times a week do you run???
     
  13. teep

    teep Guest

    Sonny you probably didn't peak for the event correctly.

    You probably overdid the interval training per week.

    There is a ratio that your body can handle per week--unless you are doing things like the long distance cyclists are doing.

    Training is complex--and that's why I get paid to sort it out, BTW.
     
  14. Ian Coe

    Ian Coe Silver Belt Professional Fighter

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    also I would hazard a guess that the long distance runners had a pretty good VO2max level through just the long runs. They had the time to build it up slowly, whereas you guys went hell for leather to try and increase your fitness in a short time (which is where sprint work is good, but ti can only do so much)


    Teep-what sort of back ground do you have and what sort of fields would you suggest I could research to help me understand the subject matter more fully
     
  15. my big toe

    my big toe Yellow Belt

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    You make some good points. I
     
  16. teep

    teep Guest

    I was talknig about the facts that all INternational level long distance cyclists know. There is a reason why they are active 200 something days a year.

    Yeah when you bang out the interval work you push to your hormonal system to handle the adaptation. When you have a HUGE aerobic base you have more time before you over push the hormonal system.

    Intervals are the quick fix.

    The long term fix is increased tempo (motor density) and duration.
     
  17. fdny92

    fdny92 Blue Belt

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    So.... the tabata is just right for this?
     
  18. teep

    teep Guest

    WRONG!!!!

    You are not listening--and why would a professional go through all of the trouble of preparing lectures for free ?
     
  19. Vilo Magee

    Vilo Magee Brown Belt Professional Fighter

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    done with this place
    Why wouldnt you want to give advice to people for free?
     
  20. ShadowNINku

    ShadowNINku SANDBAGGER BELT

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    From training BJJ my long distance cardio has gone up a whole lot....so know I need my short burst High intensity cardio which is what I AM focusing on now that I have a foundation....

    hey it's what you suggested
     

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