Tapping well before the danger zone
- Thread starter Iman Barlow
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2007
- Messages
- 2,354
- Reaction score
- 0
my suggestion is that if you are getting submitted and you dont know how to escape instead of powering out you tap, and learn from it, know how to escape properly. It will save you tons in cash no surgery etc and no time off the mat
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6,891
- Reaction score
- 0
Tap earlier with people you don't know or trust. Be more daring with the guys you roll with regularly, who you know won't injure you just because you misjudge something at a crucial time.
Always tap late to chokes.
Always tap late to chokes.
Well, eh... yeah.
Simple answer here..Tap early. I changed my view to this after my first 6 months of being a "tough guy" and trying to defend to the bitter end. The mistake has already been made so just tap and learn how to avoid it.
Your partners won't care that you aren't letting them finish
Your partners won't care that you aren't letting them finish
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2010
- Messages
- 18,578
- Reaction score
- 0
I care. Look, if you're a white or blue belt I don't really care if you tap early, but if you're purple or above and you tap early you're doing me a disservice by not letting me learn how to finish subs. Try and sub a black belt who really doesn't want to tap and tell me that finishing a locked in RNC or a fully extended arm bar requires no technique: you can't. I'm a brown belt, I'm not going to go apeshit and destroy your arm, don't be afraid. Especially if we train together a lot and you know me (more caution is needed with people you don't know). Nobody would say this about letting your guard get passed or getting mounted or what have you, the only reason you say it about subs is because you're irrationally afraid of getting hurt. We have a system in BJJ to prevent injury whereby when you reach the point of injury you give up and I let you go, and thus I learn how to apply subs and you learn how far you can go and how to escape. It works pretty well for all parties, if you start giving up early you're robbing yourself and me of the chance to learn an important skill set. Whether you train for sport, self defense, or MMA, knowing your limits on subs and how to escape them is an important facet of the game that needs practicing. Tap only as early as you need to to genuinely protect yourself (yes, with some people this will be earlier than others, it's incumbent upon you to know your training partners), not earlier.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2009
- Messages
- 732
- Reaction score
- 1
I tap early as shit to heel hooks... I've actually never been in one, sigh. Fcking 8 years doing jits and I've never been in a heel hook. Kinda sad.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 16,087
- Reaction score
- 220
With joint locks, if it is just training, tap when they have you and your go to escape didn't work. If you don't understand the submission properly, I guess tap early, but you should understand most submissions early on.
With chokes, I'm using both hands to defend and gurgling out, "taaaaappppppp", with my last breath. You're not going to get hurt and giving up easily isn't really a virtue you want to instill.
That's silly. You should be more comfortable trying to fight out of a higher belts submission because they understand it better and are less likely to hurt you out of ego.
With chokes, I'm using both hands to defend and gurgling out, "taaaaappppppp", with my last breath. You're not going to get hurt and giving up easily isn't really a virtue you want to instill.
That's silly. You should be more comfortable trying to fight out of a higher belts submission because they understand it better and are less likely to hurt you out of ego.
Drew Foster
Silver Belt
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 11,759
- Reaction score
- 1
Some people would care, depending on the belt level. If someone is a purple or right there I would probably care. I wouldn't get on someone's case about it, but I'd be a little annoyed. When someone gets to purple, they're in a position where they're getting good and they can really help out everyone at the gym. If you're trying to finish brown belts and black belts, it's not easy at all, and the tiniest details make all the difference. Cobrinha just put out a video showing why Rafa Mendes wasn't able to put him to sleep at their first ADCC finals match. The detail that Cobrinha said Rafa could've put him away with was incredibly small, but he said it would've made all the difference. If he had tapped early in training, he wouldn't have survived the choke.
That's a far out example because not all of us want to be world class grapplers, or even compete at all. But if I'm rolling with someone that's good and they're tapping out before I can get the important finishing details in, then I basically just lost a solid rep. With a full time job and mat time being so precious, every single sweep/pass/sub is priceless. I don't want to lose a valuable rep on any technique because someone gave it to me. What makes you a better grappler are those final adjustments and tiny details that need to be refined over time. It's the same thing on a pass or a sweep. Against good people you rarely get to just land into a perfect submission that goes from 0-100. You have to lock something up and then clean it up until the tap comes.
If you're training with friends that are good, they shouldn't injure you. And for sure, err on the side of caution. Like I would probably tap to an armbar from a blue belt earlier in the movement than one from a black belt. I try to escape and resist just not to the point of being an idiot. Twisting joint locks I think should be done more carefully. But if a purple+ is tapping to a RNC the second the arm gets under the chin, I think that's a little early.
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2007
- Messages
- 3,199
- Reaction score
- 0
And that's why you're a great training partner.
It depends on the submission.
For chokes, I go as long as I can withstand. Armbars I will tap as soon as my arm is extended but before I feel any tension, like maybe 1-2 inches away. Shoulder locks I wait for a stretch. Straight ankle locks I wait until I feel a slight pain. Toeholds / heelhooks, I tap very early because my ankle and knee has a tendency to pop very easy.
For chokes, I go as long as I can withstand. Armbars I will tap as soon as my arm is extended but before I feel any tension, like maybe 1-2 inches away. Shoulder locks I wait for a stretch. Straight ankle locks I wait until I feel a slight pain. Toeholds / heelhooks, I tap very early because my ankle and knee has a tendency to pop very easy.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2011
- Messages
- 72
- Reaction score
- 0
He didnt let go when he tapped, ban him from ufc.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2011
- Messages
- 17,045
- Reaction score
- 5,991
Personally, I don't believe that any philosophy is one size fits all. It's your body. It's your game. It's your gym. Training partners are different.
Every body is different. Every game is different. Every gym is different. Training partners are different.
My philosophy works for me based on these factors. And it varies based on training partner. Not all training partners are created equal. Some will pop your elbow because they're overzealous idiots and others apply slow constant pressure. I think it's easy to tell who's who by feeling their game. If a guy muscles everything and rolls hard, it's safe to say they'll over crank. Safer to tap early. If a guy is a little smoother, the odds are they're not going to Palhares me so I have some room to work escapes.
In practice, my approach has worked out great for me. Only one time I didn't trust my instincts and I got a popped elbow for giving an idiot the benefit of the doubt. Out for 3 weeks with a bad sprain.
But in the end, I agree with the belief that it's more important to figure out how you got there than it is to prioritize finding ways to get out.
On a side note, Bill Cooper's escapes DVD is worth it.
Every body is different. Every game is different. Every gym is different. Training partners are different.
My philosophy works for me based on these factors. And it varies based on training partner. Not all training partners are created equal. Some will pop your elbow because they're overzealous idiots and others apply slow constant pressure. I think it's easy to tell who's who by feeling their game. If a guy muscles everything and rolls hard, it's safe to say they'll over crank. Safer to tap early. If a guy is a little smoother, the odds are they're not going to Palhares me so I have some room to work escapes.
In practice, my approach has worked out great for me. Only one time I didn't trust my instincts and I got a popped elbow for giving an idiot the benefit of the doubt. Out for 3 weeks with a bad sprain.
But in the end, I agree with the belief that it's more important to figure out how you got there than it is to prioritize finding ways to get out.
On a side note, Bill Cooper's escapes DVD is worth it.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2011
- Messages
- 17,045
- Reaction score
- 5,991
He let go when the ref intervened and didn't need to be peeled off. Try again.
First I'm not a purple quite yet and I would agree that at that level and above the game is different and you are officially no longer a beginner/novice so there are different rules
However I reject you or anyone trying to make another persons injury concern irrational. It's my job to protect my health and if that means tapping right before the arm is fully extended I feel good about it. You're not going to pay my medical bills and your not going to reimburse me for the two weeks I can't train because you torqued my arm because you "had to finish" that armbar.
I find that comp training is the time to up the ante on all things. But for a regular Tuesday I'm not there to make sure your finishing rate is good. There's a brown right over there to help with that. I'm going to make sure my arm or wrist is ok. And I'm there to learn and improve my Bjj.
Last thing for those who have never had it happen...when someone gets the arm and goes hard to finish and so hard that your arm hurts...them saying sorry bro I was just trying to finish doesn't make your arm feel better. Not even a little bit.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2010
- Messages
- 18,578
- Reaction score
- 0
If you're that worried about getting hurt that you feel the need to tap the second a higher belt starts to put you in a joint lock, you should really consider whether you're comfortable doing BJJ at all. If it's due to pre-existing injury or whatever it's a different matter, but if it's just generalized anxiety about injury maybe take up ping pong. While you are not at the gym primarily to assist other people in getting better, no one can get better without good partners. Wigging out the second you get close to being subbed and tapping is definitely being a bad training partner if you're doing it all the time on all subs.
You don't no me, you don't know my Bjj journey and you don't know what injuries I've been through. The irony is you think I'm generalizing....
I'm comfortable in Bjj and don't like ping pong. But I'm a good sized guy. Not the biggest guy in my gym but about 6-1 210ish and you know what I got tired of that first 6 months?? Getting my arm torqued and hearing "man I didn't mean to go so hard but you're a strong guy if I don't go hard for it I won't get it". If I had a dollar for everyone that told me that back then Id have the best gi collection on earth. After one time where it happens to where I spit out my mouth piece yelling Xande pulled me aside and told me "you already made the mistake a while ago. Try one escape, tap, then discuss
The only thing I tend to tap early on is arm bars, especially when I'm resisting and my partner is using a lot of force to break the arm free. It might just be a byproduct of having been arm barred so many times over the years, but my elbows are super sensitive to being hyperextended. Going from fully extended with no pain to slightly hyperextended with excruciating pain can happen in a split second before I even have time to tap. For that reason, I almost always tap as soon as my partner breaks the arm free, especially if they are stronger than me.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2011
- Messages
- 17,045
- Reaction score
- 5,991
